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Invisiblequinn
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: viktor] * 2
    #24907304 - 01/12/18 10:00 AM (10 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
I can't prove that animals exist, france exists, atoms exist, consciousness exists, molecules exist, planets exist, nothing.




All of those things are subject to either sensory perception or scientific measurement with an instrument, except for consciousness.

You can point to an animal and I can see it. You can point to the planet Mars and I can see it. You cannot point to consciousness.

You can measure atoms and molecules with scientific instruments. You cannot measure consciousness with a scientific instrument.



i think it would have been more apt if diecommie had pointed to poetry, music or art.. none of these things can be readily explained from a materialist perspective. sure you could say they are comprised of physical sounds, or colours, or letters but that material description falls inevitably short of what we 'intuitively' know them to be.

why does it fall short? bcos these things are cultural products we have come to learn.

what else is a cultural product? morality, personal ethics...  also things we come to learn, also things know 'intuitively' and also things that materialism would struggle with... sure humans behave in all sorts of ways but could a materialist really say they are objectively 'bad'?

the ultimate cultural product tho is language. from language all things follow and in language it is most obvious to see the doubling up of physical and cultural. do the meanings of words exist in material reality? how do these shapes typed out on a keyboard convey something to a person on the other side of the globe? we know language 'intuitively', we know what words mean, we learn language from our culture.

so here is the crux:

all these things are cultural products and i would argue a certain usage of the word 'consciousness' falls into the same category. that is it is something we learn as a useful marker to describe things like our flow of thought and feelings and impressions and memories in a way that is intelligible to our culture and in a way that at the least would be incredibly inconvenient for a matierialist description of my brain states to articulate.

so consciousness is a useful and efficient way of communicating and importantly it is something we learn from our external culture.

just because you 'know intuitively' about it doesnt mean it is more real than knowing intuitively about what is good or the meaning of the letters 'c-a-t'. i would suggest we should always be suspicious of things we know intuitively but that is not to say they arent real.

rather we are cultural products ourselves and physical beings. we are motivated and guided by culture. we need to meet our material needs, but just about everything we do is infused with cultural significance in some vast interconnected web. we are part physical and part symbol..

that's why we so fkn weird :cookiemonster:

Quote:

viktor said:
To explain further. My only awareness of the material world comes from the sensory observations of the material world that I am conscious of, such as seeing it, hearing it etc.

But here's the kicker - the impressions made on my consciousness by these observations don't need the material world in order to be made. I know this, because I am capable of making similar observations in my dreams, and no-one is claiming that the material world in my dreams is real.

So the material world is not 100% certain to exist. It may exist, but then again it may not. I have no way of knowing because the impression it would make in my consciousness is the same either way.

My consciousness, on the other hand, I can be 100% certain of existing.




i strongly object to this cartesian line of reasoning. not bcos i dont think it has some validity and i think can be very insightful but as a singular outlook it tends towards solipsism and presents of a picture of people as these kind of isolated sensory silos which is just far from the reality of what we actually are :ohwell:


--------------------
dripping with fantasy


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Offlineafternoonsnack
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: viktor]
    #24907548 - 01/12/18 11:54 AM (10 days, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
To explain further. My only awareness of the material world comes from the sensory observations of the material world that I am conscious of, such as seeing it, hearing it etc.

But here's the kicker - the impressions made on my consciousness by these observations don't need the material world in order to be made. I know this, because I am capable of making similar observations in my dreams, and no-one is claiming that the material world in my dreams is real.

So the material world is not 100% certain to exist. It may exist, but then again it may not. I have no way of knowing because the impression it would make in my consciousness is the same either way.

My consciousness, on the other hand, I can be 100% certain of existing.




That's more or less Descartes' line of reasoning. I can doubt almost everything. In fact, the only thing I can't doubt is that doubting is happening. That doubting I call "consciousness".

It's a fine argument, but it makes this thread pointless. Until we establish (or accept for the sake of argument) that the material world exists, it doesn't make sense to talk about what the material world causes.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: viktor]
    #24907714 - 01/12/18 01:09 PM (10 days, 14 hours ago)

while dreaming the same process of impressions is occurring in the same sensory areas of the brain as when awake, but the source of them is 100% memory rather than from 0%memory to 100%memory which is what will be in those regions of the brain while awake.

not understanding the biological basis of memory and dreaming can make you think that dreaming is disconnected from your brain, and that consciousness and dreams do not depend upon brain.

not wanting to understand will intensify error


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Offlineafternoonsnack
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24907802 - 01/12/18 01:44 PM (10 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
If any part of consciousness survives death, I bet it won't be the part we want.




That's a very interesting point. I think people in this forum may have an advantage in this case. We talk about "ego death" and have some shared sense of that that means. Many people here have experienced periods where they seem to exist independent of their bodies and the physical world. At least we have a reference for what it might be like for consciousness to survive our bodies.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: afternoonsnack]
    #24907893 - 01/12/18 02:22 PM (10 days, 12 hours ago)

it is pretty smart sounding!


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: viktor]
    #24908460 - 01/12/18 07:13 PM (10 days, 8 hours ago)

Essentially what you, Vicktor, seem to have is a religious belief against which of course it is pointless to argue.
Folks, who attach to beliefs, will debate this forever.

Common sense however shows, that just as quantum effects, don't relate to everyday human scale life...
the assumption that the brain at least mediates consciousness is the best working hypothesis, when say undergoing brain surgery, or forbidding your kid to play football where evidence shows concussions harm quality of life.

Then we have EEG studies. And their use in medicine.

When after an accident, with a serious head injury, we see, so called nonmaterialists refusing medical help that assumes the brain is important, so called materialists might take them more seriously.

So many happy beliefs to you, and a happy new year!

Lastly there are two additional points
1) you fail to define consciousness (perhaps another sign of a believer)

but:
2)
2A) you seem to think consciousness is a noun, (ie. thing-like rather than verb or process like, or even possibly of a more abstract nature)
2B) that it is independent of both what is perceived
2C) and from the perceiver (which raises the question of wether consciousness can be defined without defining the self)

Avoiding all of these subtleties, while hurrying to establish a position, again seem to indicate an emotional need to believe something .

Meanwhile awareness which is context, as opposed to perceptions, which are content & occur within awareness/consciousness (and include: thoughts, feelings, sensations, and beliefs), of course is free of any beliefs.


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Onlineviktor
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: afternoonsnack]
    #24909363 - 01/13/18 01:31 AM (10 days, 1 hour ago)

Quote:

afternoonsnack said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
If any part of consciousness survives death, I bet it won't be the part we want.




That's a very interesting point. I think people in this forum may have an advantage in this case. We talk about "ego death" and have some shared sense of that that means. Many people here have experienced periods where they seem to exist independent of their bodies and the physical world. At least we have a reference for what it might be like for consciousness to survive our bodies.




Sure, it was ultimately a mushroom trip that made me realise that the physical world was not necessary for consciousness to exist. Everything I am arguing follows from that revelation.

It makes me wonder if the old materialists here have ever taken psilocybin. If so, what did they get out of it if they're still stuck in the materialist paradigm?


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Sobriety Bias Syndrome is the tendency for people to erroneously assume that, if there are two competing perceptions of reality, the one that was arrived at while sober must necessarily be the correct one.


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Offlineafternoonsnack
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: viktor]
    #24909494 - 01/13/18 02:25 AM (10 days, 50 minutes ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
Sure, it was ultimately a mushroom trip that made me realise that the physical world was not necessary for consciousness to exist.





There you go. That's a much better position than, "Prove to me something something every year"

Argue that the physical world isn't necessary for consciousness. That's a solid claim. Lean into it. Make your case.


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Onlineviktor
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: afternoonsnack]
    #24909546 - 01/13/18 02:52 AM (10 days, 23 minutes ago)

If you want to challenge people who make that case, start your own thread about it.

This thread is to challenge people willing to make the case that the brain generates consciousness.


--------------------
"They consider me insane but I know that I am a hero living under the eyes of the gods."

Sobriety Bias Syndrome is the tendency for people to erroneously assume that, if there are two competing perceptions of reality, the one that was arrived at while sober must necessarily be the correct one.


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Offlineafternoonsnack
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: viktor]
    #24909567 - 01/13/18 03:07 AM (10 days, 8 minutes ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
If you want to challenge people who make that case, start your own thread about it.

This thread is to challenge people willing to make the case that the brain generates consciousness.




But you keep changing the definition of the brain (it either does or doesn't exist) and consciousness (which turns out to be something utterly beyond the reach of science, experience or reason).

I'm willing to have a conversation with you some day, but not this one.

Edited to add that I agree with you ffs. If you engaged in constructive conversation with other smart people, I'd have your back. Geez.


Edited by afternoonsnack (01/13/18 03:50 AM)


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: viktor]
    #24910014 - 01/13/18 10:15 AM (9 days, 16 hours ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
If you want to challenge people who make that case, start your own thread about it.

This thread is to challenge people willing to make the case that the brain generates consciousness.




The Assumptions, you seem to have Vicktor, are that consciousness is unchanging, wonderful, and separate from both the perceiver and that which is perceived. And you seem confused about the experiencing of consciousness vs some unexperienced pure consciousness.

But it is obvious, (and proven) that all our everyday knowledge of the world comes through our senses, is interpreted and CONSTRUCTED by the brain into a model of the outside world. And that the model is only a rough approximation, good enough to keep a primate alive in its environment. Hundreds, probably thousands of experiments confirm this. So even if consciousness were independent of the brain, it would be powerless, to change you or the world for the better by itself. That seems a little less than wonderful.

No one sits around continually doing nothing in a state of pure bliss with a consciousness that is detached from everything except contemplating its own immaterial unchanging nonexistence.

On the contrary one has only to look at dreams to see that,
1) consciousness varies
2) there is also an unconscious mind, which manifests some sort of awareness
3) different manifestations of consciousness are associated with different brain waves
4) consciousness by itself is no guarantee of accurate perception of 'truth' let alone any guarantee of being logical.

I wonder, how you think consciousness is created, or wether you believe it to be eternal, and wether you think consciousness creates time and space, which would of course be paradoxical, as without time the concept of 'creation' is meaningless.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: laughingdog]
    #24910626 - 01/13/18 01:30 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

no unconscious mind.
just a conscious mind that can become unconscious as an extreme state (in sleep or white out or black out on drugs)
all dreams happen while transitioning from unconsciousness to one of the conscious states of mind, or just before going unconscious.

anyway, Victor's mushroom trip revelation has some truth to it: we do not need this physical body for consciousness,  however we do need a type of physical or simulated presence for "consuming experiences and becoming conditioned by that", or any reasonable definition that gets offered for consciousness. (which Victor did not get in his shroom trip, possibly it was too short)


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Offlineagent
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: viktor]
    #24910651 - 01/13/18 01:36 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

look at it this way, you are the most nutritious fruit of all the land, you are a perfect creation of naute, whos creator was jesus, you are unripe, and you must ripen yourself, once you do that your juices will run sweet, and you will feel it until the end of the light.


--------------------

Its like going to your favortire location but doing that exact same thing multiple times to begin that we aware that your aware of it, and to join the collective consciousness of it.:wave:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: agent]
    #24910677 - 01/13/18 01:43 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

What a bunch of true believer hogwash. Nature ain't perfect, humans aren't perfect and I'll use you as an example and Jeebus didn't create it anymore than Santa did. You're so self centered that  you think humans are the top of creation.

Unless you have some proofs which you don't.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


Edited by Icelander (01/13/18 01:44 PM)


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Offlineagent
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #24910678 - 01/13/18 01:44 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

the proof is in the kpudding.


--------------------

Its like going to your favortire location but doing that exact same thing multiple times to begin that we aware that your aware of it, and to join the collective consciousness of it.:wave:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: agent]
    #24910685 - 01/13/18 01:46 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

And you have none. Ever that I've seen. Just a bunch of  nonsense that you believe most likely because it keeps the boogeyman away at night.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineagent
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #24910691 - 01/13/18 01:48 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

who said i believed anything, i do not exist, only nature flows through me, you are talking to her not me.


--------------------

Its like going to your favortire location but doing that exact same thing multiple times to begin that we aware that your aware of it, and to join the collective consciousness of it.:wave:


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InvisibleIcelander
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: agent]
    #24910708 - 01/13/18 01:53 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

You share your nonsense beliefs here all the time and you try to squirm out when pressed just like  you are doing now.


--------------------
"Don't believe everything you think". -Anom.

" All that lives was born to die"-Anom.

With much wisdom comes much sorrow,
The more knowledge, the more grief.
Ecclesiastes circa 350 BC


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Offlineagent
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: Icelander]
    #24910713 - 01/13/18 01:54 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

im not the only one that has to do it, get real haha


--------------------

Its like going to your favortire location but doing that exact same thing multiple times to begin that we aware that your aware of it, and to join the collective consciousness of it.:wave:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: I repeat the yearly challenge [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24910896 - 01/13/18 03:08 PM (9 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
no unconscious mind.
just a conscious mind that can become unconscious as an extreme state (in sleep or white out or black out on drugs)
all dreams happen while transitioning from unconsciousness to one of the conscious states of mind, or just before going unconscious.

anyway, Victor's mushroom trip revelation has some truth to it: we do not need this physical body for consciousness,  however we do need a type of physical or simulated presence for "consuming experiences and becoming conditioned by that", or any reasonable definition that gets offered for consciousness. (which Victor did not get in his shroom trip, possibly it was too short)




  As I'm sure you are aware your statements are dogmatic. No reasons, or theoretical frame work, are provided, rather they depend on one taking you as a reliable authority. If you really wish to manifest in such a manner on the forum, ( in spite of your intelligence) it is of course your privilege. But to anyone paying attention, with perhaps a different viewpoint and willing to think critically, there is really nothing convincing ever provided by dogmatism.
    Especially as so many take themselves to be authorities, ironically especially after a having had a (or some)  'mystical' experience(s).


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