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Offlinedelirrr
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PF Tek Procedure Questions
    #24902741 - 01/10/18 10:02 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

I have some clarification questions for the first half of the PF Tek.

I will outline my understanding of the procedure, and note any questions I have.

(1) Mix Vermiculite with water, then add brown rice flour. Ratio is 2:1:1

Q: Does it matter if the BRF is organic, store bought, or grinder from brown rice?
Q: Does it matter if I use distilled or tap water?

(2) Place BRF mixture into half-pint wide-mouthed jars. Add dry vermiculite layer.

Q: Is it correct that I have to just lightly place the mixture in jars. In other words, is it very important to leave the mixture with lots of space between particles?

(3) Place foil over lids, pressure cook for 90 minutes (ideally at 15 psi).

Q: Why is it so important to create a sterilized environment in the jars?
Q: Won't water get into the jars even with the foil on?

(4) Once pressure cooking is completed, leave jars in the PC over night so that substrate cools off.

Q: Won't bacteria start to form, and creep into the jars?

(5) Disinfect the SAB. Remove foil, and inoculate under SAB.

I have many questions about inoculation.

Q: Is this the correct procedure: Flame the needle until it is red. Let it cool for a second or two. Insert needle through lid hole at an angle, make sure needle is below the dry very layer and the tip is touching the inside glass. Squeeze 1/4 cc. Repeat for all holes. Wipe off with alcohol soaked paper towel. Re-sterilize needle by flaming it again. Repeat for other jars.

Q: What are we trying to achieve here? We are trying to get the spores to glob onto the substrate, correct? If I squeeze the solution towards the jar, won't some spores remain stuck to the sides of the glass?

Q: how much of the needle needs to turn red? My last attempt I just flamed the tip.

(6) Set the inoculated jars on a shelf and wait for like 2-3 weeks until they fully colonize.

I'm at this step with my second attempt at my first PF Tek. More questions to come if/when my latest jars show mycelium growth. Thanks.

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: delirrr] * 1
    #24902755 - 01/10/18 10:09 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

1. No
1b. Tap water

2. See the tek

3. Ever seen food not mold if it's left out? That's why so it doesn't contaminate.
3b. No

4. No you just killed the bacteria... You take them out and remove the foil and let them cool down on a shelf or table. As the tek says.

5. Foil should already be off
Flame needle squirt out a drop to cool it(as in the tek)

Theres 1000s of spores in a single drop. They don't stick to glass

Flaming the needle isn't rocket science. Flame the part that goes in the jar obviously.

6. That's all you can do.

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Offlinedelirrr
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24902780 - 01/10/18 10:19 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

When do you take them out of the Pressure Cooker? And when do you take the foil off?

Squirt a drop outside of the jar to let the needle cool? RRs video shows the man inject the needle a second or two after flaming.

The needle is long. Am I flaming the whole needle until it is red? It takes a little while (20-30 sec?) to get just a part of the needle red.

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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: delirrr]
    #24902785 - 01/10/18 10:21 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Once cooled to room temp.
Do like RRs videos.
Correct.


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Offlinedelirrr
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: hamloaf]
    #24902799 - 01/10/18 10:27 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

My question really is, when should I open the pressure cooker after the pressure cooking is completed? It took about 6-8 hours for the PC to become cool to the touch. Is it at this point that I

open the lid and take the jars out
remove the foil
place the jars on the counter to cool?

Regarding the last two steps, won't exposing the lid holes to open air invite contamination?

In other words, should I be removing the foil under the SAB?

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OfflineC12H16N20
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: delirrr]
    #24902808 - 01/10/18 10:31 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Actually the vermiculite that you put on top acts as a filter between the substrate that you are going to inoculate and the aluminum lid that you made there for eliminating contamination

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: delirrr]
    #24902818 - 01/10/18 10:34 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

delirrr said:
When do you take them out of the Pressure Cooker? And when do you take the foil off?

Squirt a drop outside of the jar to let the needle cool? RRs video shows the man inject the needle a second or two after flaming.

The needle is long. Am I flaming the whole needle until it is red? It takes a little while (20-30 sec?) to get just a part of the needle red.



Don't use a cigarette lighter to flame the needle then.
Get a butane or propane torch

Quote:

delirrr said:
My question really is, when should I open the pressure cooker after the pressure cooking is completed? It took about 6-8 hours for the PC to become cool to the touch. Is it at this point that I

open the lid and take the jars out
remove the foil
place the jars on the counter to cool?

Regarding the last two steps, won't exposing the lid holes to open air invite contamination?

In other words, should I be removing the foil under the SAB?



The entire purpose of the dry verm filter is so that the cakes can be outside of the pressure cooker without foil and avoid contamination.

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OfflineC12H16N20
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: C12H16N20]
    #24902821 - 01/10/18 10:35 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Just use foil and put 3 layers.
After the pressure cooking simply remove one or two layers of foil and then when you inoculate, simply poke your syringe (on an angle) through the foil.
It will take forever to be full of mycellium, so be patient for 6 or 7 weeks.

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: C12H16N20]
    #24902824 - 01/10/18 10:37 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Don't waste all that foil. One layer is enough. Also you specifically don't leave foil on after sterilization. Leaving one layer on is keeping the dry verm from drying out making it a contamination risk.

The foil comes off while the jars are still warm so that the verm barrier dries out

Ill never understand people with no prior experience trying to make changes to something that's been tested and proven for more than a decade. Especially when those changes were things that have already been tried, didn't work as well, and then fixed.

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: C12H16N20]
    #24902825 - 01/10/18 10:37 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

:facepalm:

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Offlinedelirrr
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24902836 - 01/10/18 10:43 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
The entire purpose of the dry verm filter is so that the cakes can be outside of the pressure cooker without foil and avoid contamination.




Thanks. This is what I did not understand.

So is it still correct to wait until the pressure cooker itself cools off before removing the jars, or can I remove warm jars from the PC and set them aside to cool before inoculation?

I ask because I read elsewhere on the forum that opening up the PC too early can effect the substrate (compress it or something). Of course I would wait until it depressurizes. But is any longer necessary?

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Offlinedelirrr
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24902842 - 01/10/18 10:46 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Don't waste all that foil. One layer is enough. Also you specifically don't leave foil on after sterilization. Leaving one layer on is keeping the dry verm from drying out making it a contamination risk.

The foil comes off while the jars are still warm so that the verm barrier dries out

Ill never understand people with no prior experience trying to make changes to something that's been tested and proven for more than a decade. Especially when those changes were things that have already been tried, didn't work as well, and then fixed.





ARRGGHH!!! I messed up then. It was not clear from the three PF Tek guides I followed (Ziran's, Evilmushroom666, and RR's videos) that I had to remove foil from the jars ASAP to let the dry verm layer dry out.

This time I left the foil on the jars until the pressure cooker itself cooled off. Then I removed the jars, then removed the foil, then inoculated. I think I messed up again... These details... the devil

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: delirrr]
    #24902852 - 01/10/18 10:50 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Its hard to mess them up. Even if you leave the foil on you're fine. A lot of first time growers do it out of paranoia and thinking they're better than directions.

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OfflineC12H16N20
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24902929 - 01/10/18 11:25 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Definitely leave your jars in the pressure cooker all night unless you have other jars waiting, in which case just wait until it cools to room temp.The foil and or lid will prevent water from wetting the verm layer. It will stay completely dry.

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: C12H16N20]
    #24902977 - 01/10/18 11:56 AM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

gillettij said:
Definitely leave your jars in the pressure cooker all night unless you have other jars waiting, in which case just wait until it cools to room temp.The foil and or lid will prevent water from wetting the verm layer. It will stay completely dry.




Wrong. As soon as the pressure drops to zero you can open the PC, but be careful because its still hot as fuck in there and the steam will burn you, remove the jars and place them somewhere closely together so they don’t cool off to fast and crack. Fill the PC again and get it running asap. No need to wait any longer.


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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: AyePlus]
    #24902981 - 01/10/18 12:00 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

:whathesaid:
As soon as the pressure naturally drops to 0 you can open it.

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OfflineChickenFarmer
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24903021 - 01/10/18 12:26 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

This is painful to read


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OfflineRockyB
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: delirrr]
    #24903027 - 01/10/18 12:27 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

delirrr said:
I have some clarification questions for the first half of the PF Tek.

I will outline my understanding of the procedure, and note any questions I have.

(1) Mix Vermiculite with water, then add brown rice flour. Ratio is 2:1:1

Q: Does it matter if the BRF is organic, store bought, or grinder from brown rice?
Q: Does it matter if I use distilled or tap water?

(2) Place BRF mixture into half-pint wide-mouthed jars. Add dry vermiculite layer.

Q: Is it correct that I have to just lightly place the mixture in jars. In other words, is it very important to leave the mixture with lots of space between particles?

(3) Place foil over lids, pressure cook for 90 minutes (ideally at 15 psi).

Q: Why is it so important to create a sterilized environment in the jars?
Q: Won't water get into the jars even with the foil on?

(4) Once pressure cooking is completed, leave jars in the PC over night so that substrate cools off.

Q: Won't bacteria start to form, and creep into the jars?

(5) Disinfect the SAB. Remove foil, and inoculate under SAB.

I have many questions about inoculation.

Q: Is this the correct procedure: Flame the needle until it is red. Let it cool for a second or two. Insert needle through lid hole at an angle, make sure needle is below the dry very layer and the tip is touching the inside glass. Squeeze 1/4 cc. Repeat for all holes. Wipe off with alcohol soaked paper towel. Re-sterilize needle by flaming it again. Repeat for other jars.

Q: What are we trying to achieve here? We are trying to get the spores to glob onto the substrate, correct? If I squeeze the solution towards the jar, won't some spores remain stuck to the sides of the glass?

Q: how much of the needle needs to turn red? My last attempt I just flamed the tip.

(6) Set the inoculated jars on a shelf and wait for like 2-3 weeks until they fully colonize.

I'm at this step with my second attempt at my first PF Tek. More questions to come if/when my latest jars show mycelium growth. Thanks.




I'm a few months ahead, but I wanted to add a couple things that have made a difference.

Don't make the verm layer super thick, and make sure the brf mix is settled but not packed. I had a few jars my first go that sunk to half size because I took the don't pack direction a little to far.

Poked holes work just as good or better for pf cakes then tyvek with ports.

Make sure you get jars that have a mouth as wide as your jar so they slip out, and yes the Tek says use wide mouth 1/2 pint. They colonize faster.

Let them colonize then consolodate longer rather than shorter. They'll just sit in your fruit chamber consolidating. My best cakes we're the ones I left until I saw pins.

Where you get the spores matters, seriously. Some vendors are crooks.

Alcohol before flame top sterilize. If your like me you can't help but touch the base of the syringe to the mouth of the jar.

Follow bod's sgfc EXACTLY. Yes all six sides, yes 4-6 inches of perlite.

Just put them above your fridge when colonizing, if you're brand new and try to build an incubation chamber, you might burn them and from my experience it's faster but not THAT faster.

Every little odd color is not a contaminate. It might be verm showing through or metabolites.

If you screw up preparing and sterilizing your jars (especially if overcooked) start over, it won't go well.

Edited by RockyB (01/10/18 12:49 PM)

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: ChickenFarmer]
    #24903036 - 01/10/18 12:30 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)


Quote:

ChickenFarmer said:
This is painful to read





So are pointless off topic opinions :cookiemonster:

Quote:

RockyB said:
Quote:

delirrr said:
I have some clarification questions for the first half of the PF Tek.

I will outline my understanding of the procedure, and note any questions I have.

(1) Mix Vermiculite with water, then add brown rice flour. Ratio is 2:1:1

Q: Does it matter if the BRF is organic, store bought, or grinder from brown rice?
Q: Does it matter if I use distilled or tap water?

(2) Place BRF mixture into half-pint wide-mouthed jars. Add dry vermiculite layer.

Q: Is it correct that I have to just lightly place the mixture in jars. In other words, is it very important to leave the mixture with lots of space between particles?

(3) Place foil over lids, pressure cook for 90 minutes (ideally at 15 psi).

Q: Why is it so important to create a sterilized environment in the jars?
Q: Won't water get into the jars even with the foil on?

(4) Once pressure cooking is completed, leave jars in the PC over night so that substrate cools off.

Q: Won't bacteria start to form, and creep into the jars?

(5) Disinfect the SAB. Remove foil, and inoculate under SAB.

I have many questions about inoculation.

Q: Is this the correct procedure: Flame the needle until it is red. Let it cool for a second or two. Insert needle through lid hole at an angle, make sure needle is below the dry very layer and the tip is touching the inside glass. Squeeze 1/4 cc. Repeat for all holes. Wipe off with alcohol soaked paper towel. Re-sterilize needle by flaming it again. Repeat for other jars.

Q: What are we trying to achieve here? We are trying to get the spores to glob onto the substrate, correct? If I squeeze the solution towards the jar, won't some spores remain stuck to the sides of the glass?

Q: how much of the needle needs to turn red? My last attempt I just flamed the tip.

(6) Set the inoculated jars on a shelf and wait for like 2-3 weeks until they fully colonize.

I'm at this step with my second attempt at my first PF Tek. More questions to come if/when my latest jars show mycelium growth. Thanks.




I'm a few months ahead, but I wanted to add a couple things that have made a difference. I rubber band the foil while pcing. I was getting soaked verm layer, but take it off while hot.

Don't make the verm layer super thick, and make sure the brf mix is settled but not packed. I had a few jars my first go that sunk to half size because I took the don't pack direction a little to far.

Poked holes work just as good or better for pf cakes then tyvek with ports.

Make sure you get jars that have a mouth as wide as your jar so they slip out, and yes the Tek says use wide mouth 1/2 pint. They colonize faster.

Let them colonize then consolodate longer rather than shorter. They'll just sit in your fruit chamber consolidating. My best cakes we're the ones I left until I saw pins.

Where you get the spores matters, seriously. Some vendors are crooks.

Alcohol before flame top sterilize. If your like me you can't help but touch the base of the syringe to the mouth of the jar.

Follow bod's sgfc EXACTLY. Yes all six sides, yes 4-6 inches of perlite.

Just put them above your fridge when colonizing, if you're brand new and try to build an incubation chamber, you might burn them and from my experience it's faster but not THAT faster.

Every little odd color is not a contaminate. It might be verm showing through or metabolites.

If you screw up preparing and sterilizing your jars (especially if overcooked) start over, it won't go well.



Do not rubber band the foil on it shouldn't be that tight. Snug but loose.

You want air to be able to easily escape during sterilization. Steam is what does the sterilization. Trapped pockets of air are the number one cause of insufficient sterilization.

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OfflineRockyB
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24903066 - 01/10/18 12:50 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Deleted that bit. Are the rest decent?

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: C12H16N20]
    #24903082 - 01/10/18 12:58 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

gillettij said:
Actually the vermiculite that you put on top acts as a filter between the substrate that you are going to inoculate and the aluminum lid that you made there for eliminating contamination




See my Sig for filter jars!


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: delirrr]
    #24903096 - 01/10/18 01:05 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

delirrr asked:
I have some clarification questions for the first half of the PF Tek.

I will outline my understanding of the procedure, and note any questions I have.

(1) Mix Vermiculite with water, then add brown rice flour. Ratio is 2:1:1

Q: Does it matter if the BRF is organic, store bought, or grinder from brown rice?

- Doesnt matter really. I prefer storebought, standard BRF. Its smoother/denser.

Q: Does it matter if I use distilled or tap water?

- Nope, use whatever. Some people use pond water even. Tap is fine thou. I use bottled.


(2) Place BRF mixture into half-pint wide-mouthed jars. Add dry vermiculite layer.

Q: Is it correct that I have to just lightly place the mixture in jars. In other words, is it very important to leave the mixture with lots of space between particles?

Yeah, but I try to make it look like a cake, as in "one piece". Makes colonization easier that way.

(3) Place foil over lids, pressure cook for 90 minutes (ideally at 15 psi).

Q: Why is it so important to create a sterilized environment in the jars?

- TO sterilize the jar for proper mycelium growth.

Q: Won't water get into the jars even with the foil on?

No, not if its only steam.

(4) Once pressure cooking is completed, leave jars in the PC over night so that substrate cools off.

Q: Won't bacteria start to form, and creep into the jars?

- No, its sterile and some positive pressure too.

(5) Disinfect the SAB. Remove foil, and inoculate under SAB.

I have many questions about inoculation.

Q: Is this the correct procedure: Flame the needle until it is red. Let it cool for a second or two. Insert needle through lid hole at an angle, make sure needle is below the dry very layer and the tip is touching the inside glass. Squeeze 1/4 cc. Repeat for all holes. Wipe off with alcohol soaked paper towel. Re-sterilize needle by flaming it again. Repeat for other jars.

Most people flame their needles. I find it un-needed. Its up to you. Having a clean needle is important thou.

Q: What are we trying to achieve here? We are trying to get the spores to glob onto the substrate, correct? If I squeeze the solution towards the jar, won't some spores remain stuck to the sides of the glass?

Inject the spores into the jars. That simple. Try to get the solution on the cake insides near the glass. Thats it.

Q: how much of the needle needs to turn red? My last attempt I just flamed the tip.

- Thats fine, as long as its clean/sterile.

(6) Set the inoculated jars on a shelf and wait for like 2-3 weeks until they fully colonize.

I'm at this step with my second attempt at my first PF Tek. More questions to come if/when my latest jars show mycelium growth. Thanks.


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InvisibleZiran
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24903246 - 01/10/18 02:10 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

It clearly says in my pftek guide to leave the foil off after inoculation.

Quote:

Ziran said:

We leave the foil off after inoculation for a few reasons.
  • The foil blocks Gas Exhange and can cause jars to stall
  • Condensation can form on the foil causing the dry verm layer to fail






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Offlinedelirrr
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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: Ziran]
    #24903253 - 01/10/18 02:16 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Ziran said:
It clearly says in my pftek guide to leave the foil off after inoculation.

Quote:

Ziran said:

We leave the foil off after inoculation for a few reasons.
  • The foil blocks Gas Exhange and can cause jars to stall
  • Condensation can form on the foil causing the dry verm layer to fail









Yes.

you also wrote:

4. After your pressure cooker cycle has finished turn off your burner and allow to cool overnight.

Where the confusion came in for me was when exactly do I take off the foil?

Boddhisatta recommended taking the foil off after PC is completed, and the jars have come to 0 psi. But he also said I would probably be okay to just leave it on until shortly before inoculation.

Either way, the proof is in the jars... which have been incubating for only 3-4 days now... in time I will know if I did it right, or if I should seek another syringe source.

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: delirrr]
    #24903274 - 01/10/18 02:31 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Thats fair. I personally dont like to remove the foil till inoc because if the dry verm layer happens to get disturbed after removing it, that is also a vector for contamns to sneak their way in


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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: Ziran]
    #24903312 - 01/10/18 02:50 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:

Quote:

ChickenFarmer said:
This is painful to read





So are pointless off topic opinions :cookiemonster:







You're right. Couple things I learned the hard way. After you put your WET Brf material in the jar, wipe the exposed part of the jar with an ISO wipe or something like that. Like the inside rim. The reason being, if you have any wet crumbles stuck to the jar up there they can act as a bridge for contaminates around your dry verm layer. Maybe this isn't a big deal, but it's definitely slowed the ridiculous cobweb contains I was having.

When I put my foil on I like to spin the jar a little bit when I'm smashing the foil down. The foil needs to be pretty tight or you'll get water on top of your jars, IME. This is just what I've noticed and may not be a big deal either.


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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: AyePlus]
    #24904019 - 01/10/18 08:57 PM (7 years, 7 days ago)

Wrong. As soon as the pressure drops to zero you can open the PC, but be careful because its still hot as fuck in there and the steam will burn you, remove the jars and place them somewhere closely together so they don’t cool off to fast and crack. Fill the PC again and get it running asap. No need to wait any longer.




Zero? Is that as in absolute zero? or zero in farenheit?

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: C12H16N20]
    #24905405 - 01/11/18 12:28 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

Neither. Atmospheric zero. Not relating to tempature, pressure rather.

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: ChickenFarmer]
    #24905406 - 01/11/18 12:30 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

:lmafo:

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24905407 - 01/11/18 12:31 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

I get the feeling that I've missed something.....


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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: ChickenFarmer]
    #24905413 - 01/11/18 12:33 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

You replied to it. Absolute zero lol

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24905459 - 01/11/18 01:04 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

I know, but it wasn't even temperature related. Bad try at humor, I appologize.


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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: ChickenFarmer]
    #24905463 - 01/11/18 01:11 PM (7 years, 6 days ago)

i was laughing at c12 and enjoyed your reply...

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24917571 - 01/16/18 06:15 AM (7 years, 1 day ago)

Bod, the thing is that most people do not have a pressure guage on their PC.
Every single tek always recommends to let your jars stay in all night unless you have more jars to prepare, and in that case, you wait until the pc cools off.

Chicken Farmer's ego said-wrong!

Your PC will not get to any zero... not centigrade, not farenheit, end definitely not absolute zero-nor will you be able to read what pressure you are at if you haven't a guage.

As for the earlier comment of mine about the foil......it was meant in the vain of using no lid, just foil. ( it did appear as I was saying three layers plus the lid).

My info comes from one of the largest sponsors of this forum, as they had produced a step by step video on how to PF Tek.

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: C12H16N20]
    #24917813 - 01/16/18 09:16 AM (7 years, 1 day ago)

Every cooker still has a safety popup. That's how you know you got to zero. Otherwise no one would know when it was ok to open it lol.

My tek says take your jars out once it hits zero. I can do three runs a day easily

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24918243 - 01/16/18 12:57 PM (7 years, 1 day ago)

I read it as: once the PC allows you to open it, you're ok to do so .. just don't burn yourself.

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Re: PF Tek Procedure Questions [Re: RockyB]
    #24918332 - 01/16/18 01:40 PM (7 years, 1 day ago)

Once the PC returns to atmospheric pressure the option to open PC is available.  If the PC is opened before returning to atmospheric pressure the grains will puke out their moisture.


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