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InvisibleStickyIcky Fingers
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Re: Coca growers [Re: DBCOOPERCE]
    #24899295 - 01/08/18 07:49 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Quote:

DBCOOPERCE said:

Do you have any information about in which one of the Erythroxylum species this is the case ? To me it makes no sense that a plant, propagated by cuttings wouldn't produce viable seeds if self-fertile.





Somewhere earlier in this thread someone said that they are not apt to selfing (self fertilizing). If they were prone to selfing you would get viable berries/seeds from one plant weather it was a clone or not.

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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: StickyIcky Fingers]
    #24899348 - 01/08/18 08:17 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

All coca varietys can self fertilize, if you mean that flowers from the same plant can "impregnate" another flower.
Maybe even the same flower can "impregnate" itself.

The question is, the berry that forms on a cutting, however fertilized, is it viable (can germinate and produce a living plant)?
I have read that it cant, but that info might be incorrect.

From a site with info about coca:
This method (cloning) is becoming more popular as it gives the farmer a head start. There are two methods of planting a cutting. One involves sticking several branches a couple of feet long into the ground. The other method is to cut three or four inch cuttings from a branch, each one with protruding smaller branches. The cutting is soaked in water a day or so and then planted in loose, fertile soil. It is reported that coca leaf can be harvested from these plants within six months and seeds develop after one year but they lack embryos and aren't viable.

From another site:
Another interesting point is the South American coca farmers when collecting their seeds, pour them into a container of water and the seeds that float are discarded as they are non viable, another fact is that seeds collected from a plant grown by cutting, ie clonal propagation are not viable as they possess no embryo. Most South American coca farmers use this method as it results in earlier harvesting, and as a consequence the chance of obtaining viable seeds from Peru etc is becoming very difficult.

This site says little different:
One final note on cuttings, be aware that coca plants are apparantly not
self-fertile, so if your plants are all clones with a common parent, you
will not be able to get viable seeds.

Another site:
You’ll need seeds, as plants grown from cuttings won’t produce viable offspring, and can take several years before sustainable leaf production.

So it seems many have the opinion that cuttings do not produce viable seeds.
But it would noy suprise me if all this "cuttings not viable" info originated from one place and this info can still be wrong.
I hope i some day succeds in making a cutting and can check this myself.

Edited by Mateo (01/08/18 08:46 PM)

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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Mateo] * 3
    #24899818 - 01/09/18 01:45 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Now there is something strange going on with my 2 biggest E.Novos.
Before I had never got a single berry on any of my cocas even though they are about 5 years old.
This morning when giving them their morning shower I see 2 more berries starting to develop on my Novo that already got 2 berries.
And at least 1 new berry starting to develop on my other big Novo.
So total of 5 berries :dancer::dancer::dancer:

Maybe they have come into that age when it's time to make family:smile:
That would be a dream.
Hope they don't fall off, I'm so in a good mood now.


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InvisibleDualWieldRake
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Mateo]
    #24899904 - 01/09/18 03:09 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I don't see why a berry would not be viable besides a mutation

And from that paper: "Self-pollinations and pollinations between plants of the same floral morph set very few seed."
I wouldn't trust any old internet website over a research paper but thats me

Edited by DualWieldRake (01/09/18 03:11 AM)

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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: DualWieldRake]
    #24899943 - 01/09/18 04:20 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I don't really understand why a clone should be sterile either, it seems strange as a cutting is 100% same plant as it's parent.
But basic all sites who has info on coca and cuttings say cuttings are sterile.
If it were all wrong there should been complaints,  comments regarding it.
But I don't know, the only way to know for sure is to test it, and that will take some time and effort.


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InvisibleDBCOOPERCE
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Mateo]
    #24900005 - 01/09/18 05:35 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I think it's a often repeated myth. If my cuttings take off in spring I hopefully can proof it wrong - at least for novo. In my 5 years of crop science studies I have never heard about sterile cuttings besides the already mentioned mutations.

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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: DBCOOPERCE]
    #24900214 - 01/09/18 08:59 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I hope you are right.
It can very well be a repeated myth, just think of how many places one has read the myth that coca must be grown at high altitudes.

I also think it seems strange that a branch of a plant becomes sterile the second that stem is cut and it becomes a new plant/cutting.
Reason tells me it just cant be true.
Im also trying some cuttings, maybe i can get one to survive so i can test this.

If it do turns out to be true, it must be a coca specific thing because otherwise it would have been widley known by all who grows stuff.


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Re: Coca growers *DELETED* [Re: Mateo]
    #24900301 - 01/09/18 09:42 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: JayWise]
    #24900459 - 01/09/18 10:58 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I dont think cocas are self sterile (flower cant be pollinated with pollen from same plant).
I think any coca flower can be pollinated from any coca pollen (and get viable seed).
Even pollen from same plant and even same flower or pollen from mother plant.
There might be situations where there is a lower chance (or higher) of things happening, like they said in that paper.
Nature likes favoring good combinations and disfavor bad ones.

And i dont think this is true either:
A population of Coca plants made from cuttings sourced from a single mother plant will not be able to produce fertile berries.
I believe,
A population of Coca plants made from cuttings sourced from a single mother plant WILL be able to produce fertile berries.

But that is what i think, i may be wrong.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: JayWise]
    #24900474 - 01/09/18 11:04 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Right now the only thing i can find is this small scale research in what appears only the thrum flower morph of E. novo var. trux seem self-sterile (experimental data for a pin morph of trux, and a thrum morph of var. novo are not present)

Edited by DualWieldRake (01/09/18 11:07 AM)

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Re: Coca growers *DELETED* [Re: JayWise]
    #24900534 - 01/09/18 11:33 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: JayWise]
    #24900585 - 01/09/18 11:57 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I personally think they are capable of self-pollination and that all cuttings vill produce viable seed.
However, almost all sites on the net with coca info states cuttings vill not produce viable seed.
We are just discussing if this can be true/false or if its a myth.
It seems no answer can be found until someone tries for real, but we need cuttings for this and they are not easy to root.
Ontop of this these cuttings need to produce berries/seeds to test this.

My cocas are about 5 years old and i have now for the first time got a few berries that might not make it.
So to test this IRL will be a very long time project.


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Re: Coca growers [Re: Mateo]
    #24907387 - 01/12/18 08:37 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

One more berry discovered today.
Have 5 berries on one of the novas and one on another one, 6 total so far.
The first berry is almost full size now but no sign of changing color.
I really hope they make it.


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Mateo]
    #24916174 - 01/15/18 04:03 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Some pics of the Novo berries i took today.


First berry. Hope it starts to change color soon.
It´s about full size now.


Berry no2 on same novo plant.


Berries 3 & 4, same plant.


Berry no 5, this is the newest, smallest berry.


And berry 6. This is on another Novo plant.

No berrys has fallen off yet and i hope they wont.
But never know, it seems rare to get berries that make it indoors.

I uppdate when something happen.


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Mateo]
    #24916195 - 01/15/18 04:11 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Good luck brother, but it really doesnt look full size mine where much fatter than that when they dropped of green and dead. But your looking good the stem feeding it looks super healthy and your plants are plenty mature, id bet your on to a winner.


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OfflineMateo
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Re: Coca growers [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #24916299 - 01/15/18 04:51 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Well, if i am lucky.
It can go either way.
Wasn´t yours E.Coca berries?
Think they are somewhat more rounder than Novo berries.
The berries i got when buying was similar size but maybe they shrunk a little during shipping.


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Offlinemrmazdarx9
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Re: Coca growers [Re: Mateo]
    #24916333 - 01/15/18 05:01 PM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Yeah mine are e.coca never compared the two so im not sure


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Re: Coca growers [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #24917502 - 01/16/18 04:44 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

I checked for roots again :smile: And it's clearly showing some progress! Are the roots supposed to look like this ? I don't think they look so healthy. More like the roots of a very old plant. Today it's 6 months and 2 weeks ago I took these cuttings from the local botanical garden. I didn't use any rooting hormone on the cuttings. They are standing in the window sill. I had 4 cuttings in the beginning. One died because i forgot the humidity dome and one just rotted. Now I have 2 left. Took new ones 2 weeks ago, but they died immediately. Guess it just wasn't the right time for it.


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Invisiblekarode13Facebook
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Re: Coca growers [Re: DBCOOPERCE]
    #24917505 - 01/16/18 04:48 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

Hard to see the roots clearly. Do any of them have fresh white tips on them? Looks promising.


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Re: Coca growers *DELETED* [Re: karode13]
    #24917518 - 01/16/18 05:06 AM (6 years, 1 month ago)

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