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Invisiblevatman
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Registered: 04/17/14
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Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods?
    #24897831 - 01/08/18 03:03 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

Think I found the issue to my flow hood problems.

I have a

http://www.fungi.com/product-detail/product/the-series-ii-laminar-flow-hood.html

The series II laminar flow hood from Fungi.com

It runs a 24x18 Inch hepa filter

It runs a
Universal Blower--1,040 CFM @ .8" SP  It is a dayton motor.. model number MG1404340171210


So I would need 300 CFM @ roughly 1 Static pressure. I have 1040 at .8....

Cannot find specs, like all fungi.com items they their part numbers cannot be found online. Like I was trying to find their filter online outside of their site and could not due to the part number not being on the manufactures catalog.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


They recommend this motor for their 24x18, 24x24, and their 24x36

so 2x3=6
6x100=600

Assuming that the prefilter has .2 and the we know fungi hepa filters have a .8 we are sitting at 1.0 SP. I don't think 400 CFM will be lost at .2 SP

And I have the 24x18 so I would need 300CFM


---------------------------------------------

So me with this blower I have either transitional airflow or turbulent airflow.


Correct me if I am wrong but this sounds like their 'laminar flow hood' is infact not laminar flow.

Edited by vatman (01/08/18 03:11 AM)

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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman]
    #24897841 - 01/08/18 03:23 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

the fungi folks seem to believe that the common understanding is wrong and that you want to push a lot more air through the filter. i bought all my parts from them and was quite confused about it as well. through many conversations with many of their employees i ended up being convinced to run my blower on the highest setting and it's been working wonderfully for me. I forget the exact numbers though.

Edited by verum subsequentis (01/08/18 03:25 AM)

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Offlineverum subsequentis
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #24897843 - 01/08/18 03:24 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

What are your flow hood problems?

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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: verum subsequentis]
    #24897847 - 01/08/18 03:28 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

I am getting mold, I am working in a dirtier place than I use to. So something like more turbulent airflow could be causing the issue.

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InvisibleAyePlus
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman]
    #24897853 - 01/08/18 03:34 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

I ordered the 18x24 filter and straight up told them I think they fan they offer is a bad match(overpowered) and asked for the specs on their filters so I could find a better fan through someone else. The static pressure of the filter they sell is something like 1.0 at 500fps

The blower pushes 900 something at 1.0 sp and you’ll be rocking a prefilter that brings it up to 1.2 slowing the blower down a little more, you can find merv 8 filters that will add .3-.4 sp if you wanted to slow it even more

900/3 = ~300fps

When you call FP they say the recommended range is 150-400 fps at the face. So their blower satisfies this requirement although most people on the boards I’ve talked to would say that 400fps is to fast and something around 200 is more ideal.

To match their 18x24, I got a blower that pushes 500 at 1.0 sp and I’m gonna use a thicker 2” prefilter so it’ll only have .14 resistance. Should get around 450 and since I have 3/4 inch pieces of trim(1by2’s)
holding the filter in my filter true dimension is 16.5x22.5 or 2.6sq ft giving me ~173 fps.

The flow should be laminar at any speed if the static pressure is building up evenly in the plenum behind the filter. But 150-300 are what you want to work in. Hope this helps.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: AyePlus]
    #24897857 - 01/08/18 03:37 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

Sounds like I should stack 3-5 prefilters

Also by definition it is not laminar flow. So false advertising

My blower all I know it is running 1040 @ .8 SP

Edited by vatman (01/08/18 03:56 AM)

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InvisibleAyePlus
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman]
    #24897862 - 01/08/18 03:42 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

Just get one with a higher static pressure. (Or pressure drop as its known in the HVAC world)

Static pressure of common filters


Edit to respond to edit. It is laminar flow, just extra fast laminar flow, should still work fine though:shrug:


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Edited by AyePlus (01/08/18 03:43 AM)

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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: AyePlus]
    #24897865 - 01/08/18 03:45 AM (7 years, 10 days ago)

Well how do I calculate what I need for a pressure drop without knowing the motor specs? I cannot seem to find their motor online.  All I know their motor operates at 1040 CFM at .8 SP


Quote:

AyePlus said:
Just get one with a higher static pressure. (Or pressure drop as its known in the HVAC world)

Static pressure of common filters


Edit to respond to edit. It is laminar flow, just extra fast laminar flow, should still work fine though:shrug:





Air is a fluid. Fluids are defined as gas, water, vapor etc. When they flow they follow the same rules in physics.


The the higher the pressure or flow changes the state. Low flow rates give you laminar, medium give you transitional and high give you turbulent flow.


"Laminar flow tends to occur at lower velocities, below a threshold at which it becomes turbulent. Turbulent flow is a less orderly flow regime that is characterised by eddies or small packets of fluid particles, which result in lateral mixing"

I can pull out my automation book that goes further into detail on this.

So based on this, Fungi perfecti hoods are not Laminar flow. Yes they are good at scrubbing a room fast but not having air mix in your work space if the laminar flow for hoods is around 100CFM per Square foot.

I was looking at large industrial flow hoods and they operate at 100CFM per square foot.

Edited by vatman (01/08/18 05:58 AM)

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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman] * 2
    #24898009 - 01/08/18 06:52 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

.


--------------------

Amateur Mycologists United
AMU Q&A

Edited by mushpunx (05/12/20 09:21 AM)

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: mushpunx] * 1
    #24898108 - 01/08/18 08:25 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Series ii uses the dayton 12G810 from my quick google searching.

Quote:

polishfarmer said:
so while i was discussing filters and blowers with a technician from fungi perfecti.. He basically tells me that i need to buy a blower that i think is twice as powerful as needed. he throws stamets name around which i then quoted him straight back from stamets book the "Mushroom Cultivator" pointing out that what he was telling me was incorrect and grossly exaggerated... he didnt email me back after that..

am i missing something here?

looking at the fungi perfecti site.. they only have 2 or 3 blowers for application to their filters. They seem grossly overpriced. not to mention stamets spawn samples which he sells  for 6x more than anyone else... Like literally 120$ for different mushroom spawn samples and cultures.. it makes me lol. especially considering the fact that  you can basically grow mushrooms indefinitely until the end of time as long as a medium is provided... haha. I feel like all this inspires me to question the integrity of him and this company..

here is the email

Thank you for your call, we appreciate your interest in our products.

First, for sterile culture you want an air speed of 150-400 fpm off the face of the filter, so divide your blower's CFM @1" by the area of the filter to estimate the fpm. The formula is detailed in both of Paul's books The Mushroom Cultivator and Growing Gourmet and Medicinal Mushrooms.

Our EAFB2 (FP's Universal Blower) offers 1,040cfm @0.8" sp. so it is more than enough for our 24x24" filter. Once you add a pre filter to the mix, your total static pressure will be closer to 1.2", reducing the total air flow to well below 1000cfm. Divide by 4sq ft, and you will find your air flow rapidly approaching 200fpm (on the lower end of the fpm scale.)

Also, as dust accumulates, your static pressure also increases. By the time your filter needs replacing your static pressure will have doubled, and you want your blower to be able to handle the additional pressure while providing adequate flow.

From a recent customer: "I use this blower with my  HEPA filter 24x24 and i get 118 cfm out of the face of my flow hood"




For these reasons the EAFB2 is ideal for our 24x24 filter.
Let me know if you have any further questions.



and here is my reply which i got no answer to...



Really?  Stamets says " ideally that number will be 100 fpm, the optimum range for air velocity in laminar flow systems" Pg 350 Line 16

I also read that your blower should be 20% more powerful than necessary.
To compensate for things like prefilter, dust and degridation of blower output over time

So for a 24x24
That would be 400cfm
+ 20% or 80 cfm
For a total of 480cfm...

I dont see how yall are recomending a 1000 cfm blower?

I would most likely have to cover the flow hood input partially to reduce the airflow with a blower like that...


Now am I wrong? did I miss something?
I've been trying to research and understand all this very well.. but it seems to me like fungi perfecti likes to take advantage of people.. ?




Paul is always trying to make an extra buck.
But for what its worth you should be getting laminar flow all the way from 100cfm up to about 350-450cfm then it breaks up into eddies and turbulence.

To me it would be weird getting a hood from a place not exactly known for reliable spawn production. Lol

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Invisiblenatedawgnow
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24898246 - 01/08/18 10:15 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

If you are worried about it and don't want to buy a new blower, pick up a variable speed controller online or
harbor freight and dial it down a bit. Use a lighter and do the 90 degree flame test till you find the sweet spot.


--------------------

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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: natedawgnow]
    #24898259 - 01/08/18 10:34 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

It was fairly reliable when working in it's own room in a clean place. 

But when you look in terms of laminar flow it is not.


How reliable is the variable speed controller for liminar flow?

Also bodhisatta could you clarify your statement for me. Are you saying 300 cfm per squar foot is acceptable?


HVAC reddit saying this wont work

'Man you're gonna have a tough time balancing that chinese made PSC fan to exactly what you want. I will be surprised if you get that fan to do such a low flow at high static. Fan laws don't add up on this one.

Good luck though.'

Edited by vatman (01/08/18 11:12 AM)

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InvisibleAyePlus
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman]
    #24898355 - 01/08/18 11:28 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

300cfm psf is in the acceptable range. But faster than the ideal of ~150.

The commercially available LF units usually have a range of 60-110, but they are deaigned to work in an already clean environment and they also have a cabinet around them. Tabletop units should blow a littler faster, I think Gr0wer uses one that pushes ~220 and he likes it. However RR says you should only run at those higher FPS to scrub the room and then slownit down to work right up against the surface.

Using a speed controllor, limiting the size of the opening or prefilter with higher static pressure should get you where you want to be. GL

Maybe your sterile technique isn't as on point as you thought and you’re only noticing because it was extra clean in the room before and wasn’t as important. No offense just tryna troubleshoot.


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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman]
    #24898365 - 01/08/18 11:32 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Been working in front of the hood for about 8 years.  Your problem isn't your air flow.


--------------------
     
How I Get Stuff done. - My Reference Guide. - My Grows.

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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: AyePlus]
    #24898385 - 01/08/18 11:43 AM (7 years, 9 days ago)

No offense taken, this is part of troubleshooting.

I have plants in the room, house is moldy and this is the most trouble I always head.

So either the hood is designed to be too powerful or my method was flawed before and I just didn't notice it being in a clean environment.

With a 1500 MPR pre-filter it blows out a lighter, or alachoal lamp. I am thinking a speed control might be in order to further troubleshoot.

If you are saying 300 CFM is acceptable than my method is flawed.

Note taken hamloaf

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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman]
    #24898418 - 01/08/18 12:10 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

300-400cfm can still produce laminar flow. Lookup what tissue culture labs use. Often times they built their setups with those numbers in mind.

Everything on this site or in mushroom info is giving the lower numbers.

It would probably be best to find an actual engineer and find out some real facts

FFU rooms also use lower flows like our mushrooms cultivation numbers. Probably to save on operation costs

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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24898444 - 01/08/18 12:26 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Also does not help my table shakes while the motor is running sometimes.

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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman]
    #24899275 - 01/08/18 07:39 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Burning some paper I noticed that I have unclean air being pulled from the sides of my hood being sucked up into the clean air flow.

I put an a light on the side of my hood, rolled some standard printing paper into a small roll and was testing where the smoke went around my hood.There is also a slight draft center front of it.

Update

So removed the siding, and the draft is still the case.

Edited by vatman (01/08/18 08:22 PM)

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InvisibleAyePlus
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: vatman]
    #24899740 - 01/08/18 11:45 PM (7 years, 9 days ago)

Thats why I’m building mine with an actual hood and sides. Almost done, just letting silicone set up now.



Putting the finishing touches tomorrow and adding a wire rack, gonna make a plexi inlay and a plexi roof/shelf.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Fungi perfecti selling bad flow hoods? [Re: AyePlus]
    #24900261 - 01/09/18 09:27 AM (7 years, 8 days ago)

Very nice,  but I think mine has to do with cfm being too powerful.  I built plexyglass sides on mine and tge draft was pulling it from the front of tge sides.



Pen is a visual reference  to where it was hard to see the smoke. The paper did not hsve an active flame just smoke when testing this.


The smoke was going intop of my lifted work station.  That is about 2.5 inches high off the table.

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