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Spivkurl
Electroacoustic inventor



Registered: 08/26/17
Posts: 945
Loc: Minnesota, the next state...
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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Is not potato dextrose agar redundant?
#24878773 - 12/30/17 01:13 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Starch and sugars are both complex carbohydrates. I have seen many people use potato or grain water in place of all other aspects of agar work. Why is dextrose used at all, forbidding all other sugar sources, such as sucunat or agave?
I only ask, because I strive towards organic production in all aspects of any cultivation I participate in - whether it is purchased, grown in my garden, or grown in my closet.
What is it about dextrose which is attractive?
I have done some searching on the forums, and still, after all - dextrose seems redundant when using grain water or potato water as an additive to agar or LC recipes.
Keep in mind, I am new to this aspect of agriculture. I am only trying to help the mushroom farmers, and the human race as a whole, evolve by asking this question. Why is one sugar/carbohydrate source better than another.
All opinions and evidence is welcome. I have opted out of ratings, so you can only harass me here or by PM... but realize before reacting, that YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE I'VE BEEN. 
BTW - Yes, I'm on a rant, since my life as I've constructed it is being dismantled as we speak. That is life.
I would not be involved in this pursuit of mushroom cultivation, if it were not for the good of all life on earth. When I look at a packet of dextrose, and see the "NON GMO" produced from corn BS on the package, it makes me want to throw up a bit in my mouth. If any one thinks that non GMO is any better than conventional ag products, produced with toxic pesticides and carcinogenic herbicides, then they are fooling themselves. I am a vegan, and still I would rather grow mushrooms on cat food than this stupid midwestern excuse for "healthy" bait and switch!
Seriously though... are we as humans so different than fungus? When I cook potato or rice or rye, I do not add sugars unless it is needed for activating some other element of the recipe such as yeast. It is not for nutrition, but for science. So, if there is a legitimate science behind the use of corn dextrose, then please fill me in!
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*ALL POSTS CREATED BY THIS USER ARE FICTIONAL IN NATURE, AND ARE THE PRODUCT OF LUCID DREAMING. THEY ARE NOT TO BE TAKEN AS REAL OR TRUE.
Edited by Spivkurl (12/30/17 01:34 PM)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: Spivkurl]
#24878952 - 12/30/17 02:46 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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The dextrose is added as a simple sugar to help transfered tissue start off. You can work without it in PDA making just potato agar. But it might not perform as well as pda does.
A lot of other grains have a natural content of some simple sugars. But potatoes are usually all starch
Comparison with humans is a bad idea. We don't need a complete meal every meal. We can get a complete nutrition from different meals at different times.
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Spivkurl
Electroacoustic inventor



Registered: 08/26/17
Posts: 945
Loc: Minnesota, the next state...
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24879072 - 12/30/17 03:56 PM (7 years, 18 days ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said: The dextrose is added as a simple sugar to help transfered tissue start off. You can work without it in PDA making just potato agar. But it might not perform as well as pda does.
A lot of other grains have a natural content of some simple sugars. But potatoes are usually all starch
Comparison with humans is a bad idea. We don't need a complete meal every meal. We can get a complete nutrition from different meals at different times.
Your comment about my comparison with humans is especially interesting. My nutritional cycle is and has been around 12-24 hours for many years. I know that many people do not poo for several days, yet I can not think of this as healthy. 
But seriously, since the total nutrition of the medium is always there, and is all that is present for the time in place, then it seems very different. More akin to a drip IV of nutrients than a meal.
I also get differing opinions regarding the "nutritional" content of agar, with lower values leading to "reaching out," and with higher values sort of stalling extensive growth. Could the increased simple sugar content not be lending to this stalling of outreach?
Either way, I appreciate the input from a trusted and respected member of the site. I am honestly trying to learn and help. I am also at the verge of my next batch of agar, and want to be clean and good to my myceliums.
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Spivkurl
Electroacoustic inventor



Registered: 08/26/17
Posts: 945
Loc: Minnesota, the next state...
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: Spivkurl]
#24880620 - 12/31/17 09:00 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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So, I've been continuing my research about mycelium nutrition a bit. I've come to the conclusion that there is a lot of contradictory information being provided here.
Some TC's, such as bodhisatta in the above post, regard dextrose as a source of simple sugars.
Then in a topic such as this one (yes, it's about LC, but regarding the dextrose all the same) ... Why is malt and dextrose best in LC? In the second response, by TranscendingLife, it seems that dextrose and malt extract are lumped together as complex sugars, while karo and honey are denoted as simple sugars.
This is deepening my curiosity for sure.
I know for sure that things such as grain water or potato water would contain both simple and complex sugars to begin with. On top of this, it is often recommended to dilute either of these before using in an agar recipe, so as to keep the recipe from being too nutritious.
As a result, I find myself wondering if it would not be acceptable to simply dilute those components less, and leave out any direct sugar additive. Is this a ridiculous thing to think?
Part of what has led me to this search is the fact that I have never seen "potato dextrose" on the shelves anywhere, but only potato "starch," "flour," or "flakes." The only dextrose which I have seen is from corn. I have also read some threads here which refer to potato starch as being toxic to mycelium.
I'm not sure who or what to trust, besides my own instinct. The only brewing store within walking distance has been replaced by an AA club, and I'm ready to make my next agar batch today. Probably unless I can get some more suggestions about this search for info, I will simply do a potato water/agave batch and, skip yeast in this one. (mostly because the flakes annoy me in the dishes!)
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: Spivkurl] 1
#24880652 - 12/31/17 09:18 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Glucose(dextrose) and fructose are the two most simple sugars Sucrose is table sugar its a mash up of the two simple sugars. Sucrose itself is often considered a simple sugar too.
Malt extract already has plenty of dextrose(glucose) and other simple sugars.
Also lots of complex sugars like maltose

There's no such thing as potato dextrose. Hence why you can't find it. Its potato / dextrose / agar. Potatoes don't have many if any simple sugars hence addition of dextrose. Malt exact already has dextrose
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Spivkurl
Electroacoustic inventor



Registered: 08/26/17
Posts: 945
Loc: Minnesota, the next state...
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24880721 - 12/31/17 09:53 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Very useful information! Thank you bodhisatta!
On further thought, I am leaning toward the addition of a small amount of organic unsulphured blackstrap molasses instead of agave nectar. From wikipedia, it seems that the types of sugars are more broad in the molasses, and the minerals and B vitamins may be of some assistance (?).
I read some posts on here referring to dextrose being made from either potatoes or grains. This must be misinformation or something.
Thank you for helping clear this up!
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JHOVA
Post whore



Registered: 02/17/17
Posts: 4,727
Loc:
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: bodhisatta]
#24880725 - 12/31/17 09:54 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Do a side by side of using different strength agars or this talk is cheap. You really dont habe to take anyones word on this at all and can see for yourself first hand how your specific cultivars respond to differening strength.
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๐ด ๐ฐ ๐ผ ๐ฒ ๐ป ๐ธ ๐ฝ ๐ถ ๐
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Spivkurl
Electroacoustic inventor



Registered: 08/26/17
Posts: 945
Loc: Minnesota, the next state...
Last seen: 4 years, 6 months
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: JHOVA]
#24880756 - 12/31/17 10:04 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
JHOVA said: Do a side by side of using different strength agars or this talk is cheap. You really dont habe to take anyones word on this at all and can see for yourself first hand how your specific cultivars respond to differening strength.
Perhaps when I have some cultures well established, this will be an excellent use of my time.
Maybe my talk is cheap, but I do respect the experienced cultivators on this site, and I value raw data with which to draw conclusions and make plans. I may not have to "take any ones word for it," yet I also see many people being chastised for not following a tek word for word. When there is conflicting information, it seems important to seek out the truth of the matter (within reason).
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Mateja


Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: Spivkurl] 1
#24880899 - 12/31/17 11:20 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Spivkurl said: I am a vegan, and still I would rather grow mushrooms on cat food
I was a vegan for 1.5 years when I used dog food and now I use cat food in agar recipes as well, works great
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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bodhisatta 
Smurf real estate agent


Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,915
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Is not potato dextrose agar redundant? [Re: Spivkurl]
#24880965 - 12/31/17 11:52 AM (7 years, 17 days ago) |
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Quote:
Spivkurl said: Very useful information! Thank you bodhisatta!
On further thought, I am leaning toward the addition of a small amount of organic unsulphured blackstrap molasses instead of agave nectar. From wikipedia, it seems that the types of sugars are more broad in the molasses, and the minerals and B vitamins may be of some assistance (?).
I read some posts on here referring to dextrose being made from either potatoes or grains. This must be misinformation or something.
Thank you for helping clear this up!
Most dextrose comes from corn, cane, or beets
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