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Invisiblecarbonhoots
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Registered: 09/11/01
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Loc: BC Canada
Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore
    #2482738 - 03/30/04 05:19 AM (13 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineLearyfan
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2484158 - 03/30/04 05:23 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Court Opens Door To Searches Without Warrants

UPDATED: 4:27 PM CST March 29, 2004

NEW ORLEANS -- It's a groundbreaking court decision that legal experts say will affect everyone: Police officers in Louisiana no longer need a search or arrest warrant to conduct a brief search of your home or business.

Leaders in law enforcement say it will keep officers safe, but others argue it's a privilege that could be abused.

The decision in United States v. Kelly Gould, No. 0230629cr0, was made March 24 by the New Orleans-based 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.

The ruling stems from a lawsuit filed in Denham Springs in 2000, in which defendant Gould filed a motion to suppress information gleaned from a search of his home. The motion was granted by district court, and the government appealed this decision. The March 24 ruling by the 5th Circuit is an affirmation of that appeal.


Searches Without Warrants

In the case, the Livingston Parish Sheriff's Office was contacted on Oct. 17, 2000, by a Gould employee who told officers that Gould intended to kill two judges and unidentified police officers and to destroy telephone company transformers. The LPSO informed the East Baton Rouge Parish Sheriff's Office of the threats.

A search of Gould's criminal history revealed several arrests and that he was "a convicted felon for violent charges," according to the Facts and Proceedings section of the 5th Circuit ruling.

When officers went to question Gould, they were told he was asleep. The officers asked if they could look inside for Gould, and were allowed to enter.

The officers testified that that they believed a search of the home was necessary to ensure their safety, given the allegations by Gould's employee and Gould's criminal history, according to the Facts and Proceedings section of the 5th Circuit ruling.

Gould's bedroom door was ajar, and officers testified they peered inside and saw no one. Thinking Gould could be hiding, the officers looked in three closets. In one of the closets, the officers found three firearms, according to the Facts and Proceedings section of the 5th Circuit ruling.

Gould was found hiding outside the home a few minutes later. He was taken into custody and questioned about the guns. The officers asked for and received Gould's consent to search the home, with Gould signing a waiver of search warrant. Gould subsequently was arrested for allegedly being a felon in possession of firearms.

One judge, Judge Grady Jolly, said he concurred in part and dissented in part with the majority opinion. Judge Jerry Smith, however, completely disagreed with the majority ruling, saying: "I have no doubt that the deputy sheriffs believed that they were acting reasonably and with good intentions. But the old adage warns us that 'the road to hell is paved with good intentions.'"

New Orleans Police Department spokesman Capt. Marlon Defillo said the new search power, which is effective immediately, will be used judiciously.

"We have to have a legitimate problem to be there in the first place, and if we don't, we can't conduct the search," Defillo said.

But former U.S. Attorney Julian Murray said the ruling is problematic.

"I think it goes way too far," Murray said, noting that the searches can be performed if an officer fears for his safety.

Defillo said he doesn't envision any problems in New Orleans.

"There are checks and balances to make sure the criminal justice system works in an effective manner," Defillo said.


I gotta move out of this nazi country. Jesus Christ.




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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2484249 - 03/30/04 05:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Do you love Big Brother? You will.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2484348 - 03/30/04 06:40 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Though it is right in that it will affect anyone, it directly affects more than Lousiana. The 5th Circuit court rules over Lousiana, Mississippi, and Texas.

They've already confirmed that Houston Police Dept. cops will be using this right they have been granted.
It will take little time before the rest of America is affected.

It amazes me how Constitutionally granted rights are reinterpreted, in blatant contrast with the wishes of the American public. I know many of you think Bush is biggest threat to this country right now, but I'm inclined to believe the judicial system has that spot.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: silversoul7]
    #2484360 - 03/30/04 06:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Wow this is awful. And Mr. Gould seemed like such a nice guy, too.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: Learyfan]
    #2484559 - 03/30/04 07:42 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Hmmm. I think I need more information before I can offer a final opinion on this. There must be more to this than is reported in this article, because the way it is reported it seems like nothing unusual took place.

A couple of points --

When officers went to question Gould, they were told he was asleep. The officers asked if they could look inside for Gould, and were allowed to enter.

If police ask to enter a residence and are granted permission to do so, they may enter, warrant or no warrant. This is nothing new.

The officers asked for and received Gould's consent to search the home, with Gould signing a waiver of search warrant.

This is what I don't get. If Gould gave them consent to search his home -- written consent at that -- how did this ever get to court? This is not setting a precedent or writing new law at all. All Gould would have had to do was say, "No way. Get a warrant and I'll let you in, but not before," and the cops would have been shit out of luck.

The way this reads to me (and it's a shame the article is so shabbily written) is that Gould's objection is with the cops not just entering his home with permission, but looking around once they were inside. Yet the cops say they were looking for Gould in order to question him. Here again, if whoever answered the door had said "He's not here," rather than saying, "He's asleep," and then told the cops to come back later, there would have been no problem. But the inference of "He's asleep" is plain -- the guy they came to question is in fact there and is therefore available for questioning.

Seems to me Gould brought this on himself. Regardless, I can't see how this "writes new law" -- the way the article reads is that it upholds existing law.

pinky


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2484563 - 03/30/04 07:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
I know many of you think Bush is biggest threat to this country right now, but I'm inclined to believe the judicial system has that spot.



From Fox News - Friday, January 16, 2004:
"WASHINGTON ? President Bush used his executive authority Friday to bypass Senate Democrats and install District Judge Charles Pickering on the 5th Circuit Court of Appeals.

The recess appointment, confirmed by Fox News on Friday, allows Pickering to skip confirmation by the deadlocked Senate and hold the seat until the next Congress takes office, which will be in January 2005."

"The 5th Circuit Court, based in New Orleans, handles cases from Mississippi, Texas and Louisiana, and is known for pioneering rulings on desegregation and voting rights appeals."



I wonder, how did Judge Charles Pickering vote on this case?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: Phred]
    #2484585 - 03/30/04 07:49 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

According to the decision Gould was not found in his room. The cops looked in the closet's while searching for him (in case he was hiding) and discovered the guns. They then learned he was outside and they found him. At that point he signed the consent.


The actual decision


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


Edited by luvdemshrooms (03/30/04 07:50 PM)


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: Evolving]
    #2484593 - 03/30/04 07:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Quote:

I wonder, how did Judge Charles Pickering vote on this case?



He didn't.

No Pickering


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2484610 - 03/30/04 07:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Yes, I understand that.

My point is that they would have been unable to make a charge of gun possession stick if he had refused to sign the waiver. This is why the cops asked his permission and had him sign in the first place -- they knew very well that guns discovered in the search for Gould himself would be thrown out in court. What changed the entire situation was Gould agreeing to the second warrantless search.

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2484612 - 03/30/04 07:55 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Hey.... here's a second decision dated a couple days earlier with many more judges. (still no Pickering though) WTF?


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
Resident Cynic

Registered: 10/01/02
Posts: 5,385
Loc: Apt #6, The Village
Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2484623 - 03/30/04 07:58 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

He must be doing National Guard duty.  :wink:


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: Phred]
    #2484627 - 03/30/04 07:59 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

My unclear point, after being allowed to enter the home, while searching for a known violent felon, and only looking in areas where a person could hide, I'm not sure they did anything wrong. I know a state trooper in another state. I'll e-mail him and get his take on this.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2484705 - 03/30/04 08:19 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Okay, I read the decision in the .pdf file you linked.

It's as I said -- the "cursory protective sweep" in which the firearms were first spotted is allowed. There are numerous affirming precedents (including one from the Supreme Court) covering that part of the whole thing.

And in fact, if the cops had seized the firearms at that point and charged Gould with illegal possession, the guns should properly have been thrown out as evidence because they were "fruit of the poison tree" -- that is to say that they were not seized "incident to the arrest".

But the cops didn't seize the guns at that point. They instead asked permission from Gould to search his residence. Gould screwed up by agreeing.

pinky


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
Two inch dick..but it spins!?


Registered: 11/29/01
Posts: 34,234
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: Phred]
    #2484731 - 03/30/04 08:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I'm not doing a good job of agreeing with you I guess.


The cops looked in the closet's while searching for him (in case he was hiding) and discovered the guns.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: Phred]
    #2484862 - 03/30/04 08:54 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Finally someone else agrees with me. We've been discussing this same thing in the security forum. I can not figure out how the fuck this gives cops the right to warrentless/consentless searches. They knock on the door of a suspect, ask if they can come in and look for him. They are told yes. They find guns while looking for him. They find him and ask if they can search his house, he says yes and signs consent. THEY HAD CONSENT THE WHOLE FUCKING TIME HOW DOES IT SET PRECEDENT TO CONSENTLESS/WARENTLESS SEARCHES?


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Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: ChiefThunderbong]
    #2484891 - 03/30/04 09:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The way I read it, it doesn't.

I honestly don't know why the media is making such a big deal out of this. This kind of appeal is rejected all the time. Gould's defense lawyer thought he could bamboozle the judges into confusing the first "defensive sweep" search with the second search to which the defendant consented. The judges weren't bamboozled. Too bad, so sad.

This decision writes no new law, establishes no new precedents. Reading the entire .pdf file luvdemshrooms provided makes this clear. Numerous cases (including Supreme Court decisions) cited in the brief reaffirm that the defensive search --even without consent -- is allowed.

pinky


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OfflineChiefThunderbong
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: Phred]
    #2484908 - 03/30/04 09:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

So basically whoever wrote this article is just a dumbass?


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Yeah spinnin' around again
yea caught in a tailspin


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Offlinegrib
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Re: Police in Louisiana don't need a search warrant anymore [Re: carbonhoots]
    #2486746 - 03/31/04 12:24 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Article 1 of the Bill of Rights:

All men are by nature free and independent and have
certain inherent and inalienable rights among which are life,
liberty and the pursuit of happiness. To secure these rights
and the protection of property, governments are instituted
among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the
governed
.

The PATRIOT Act, etc., exist because the citizens of the United States allow such Constitution trampling legislation. Though the powers of government may not be 'just', they are allowed by the people, likely because of fear.

They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security. B.F.


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<~>Our truest life is when we are in dreams awake <~>


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