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OfflineFrenetic Zetetic
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Registered: 11/19/17
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24820500 - 12/02/17 03:01 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
detachment is a fallacy
relaxing and being calm may give the appearance of detachment, and you can develop the calm through meditation.

caring but being calm is good and honest

not giving a fuck is a fake magic trick. to be human you have to care more not less.

care in a calm way.




Caring to not care.


--------------------
"Take it easy, dude. But TAKE it!" - Terence McKenna

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24820536 - 12/02/17 04:08 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
detachment is a fallacy
relaxing and being calm may give the appearance of detachment, and you can develop the calm through meditation.

caring but being calm is good and honest

not giving a fuck is a fake magic trick. to be human you have to care more not less.

care in a calm way.




The process of relaxation involves the letting go of cares and concerns. The two are not independent of each other.




That is a visualization, which could work once or twice, especially in a guided meditation class, while listening to an instructor's assuring voice, and while I have believed it for decades, it does not stand up in the face of real challenges.

when challenged by anxiety, or shock, or emotional stress, neither descriptions, metaphors, nor ideas help in finding a tranquil respite. Letting go of muscle tension works but not letting go of cares, or concepts, or attachments.... these ideas actually trigger more ideas, and attempting to disconnect linkages (the attachments) between ideas does not work either.

there is no short cut to becoming calm - it has to be approached directly and fundamentally, by slowing the heart and relaxing muscles, not concerns - you cannot relax an idea or a memory, but you can relax a muscle in the face of an idea or a memory (that is the good work in a nutshell).

it is a psycho-physical labor that needs daily practice to work; when practiced it becomes attached to the trigger idea, feeling, memory etc.  Any tightened stitch in the fabric of your complex personality can be undone effectively (not universally, but in context) in this way.


--------------------
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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24820781 - 12/02/17 08:55 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

care in a calm way.




How can I calmly care if I'm swept up in a hurricane of volatile thoughts and emotions?

Detachment is a cornerstone of emotional intelligence and resilient mental health.

People with road rage who murder don't have the skills to calmly care.

People who shoot into a crowd don't have the skills to calmly care . . . etc



Actually detachment is a sign of being emotionally stunted. Not to mention that emotional intelligence isn’t a thing.

There isn’t such a thing as “calmly caring”, you either do or you don’t and it will affect you or not.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.

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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24820822 - 12/02/17 09:19 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:
detachment is a fallacy
relaxing and being calm may give the appearance of detachment, and you can develop the calm through meditation.

caring but being calm is good and honest

not giving a fuck is a fake magic trick. to be human you have to care more not less.

care in a calm way.




The process of relaxation involves the letting go of cares and concerns. The two are not independent of each other.




That is a visualization, which could work once or twice, especially in a guided meditation class, while listening to an instructor's assuring voice, and while I have believed it for decades, it does not stand up in the face of real challenges.

when challenged by anxiety, or shock, or emotional stress, neither descriptions, metaphors, nor ideas help in finding a tranquil respite. Letting go of muscle tension works but not letting go of cares, or concepts, or attachments.... these ideas actually trigger more ideas, and attempting to disconnect linkages (the attachments) between ideas does not work either.

there is no short cut to becoming calm - it has to be approached directly and fundamentally, by slowing the heart and relaxing muscles, not concerns - you cannot relax an idea or a memory, but you can relax a muscle in the face of an idea or a memory (that is the good work in a nutshell).

it is a psycho-physical labor that needs daily practice to work; when practiced it becomes attached to the trigger idea, feeling, memory etc.  Any tightened stitch in the fabric of your complex personality can be undone effectively (not universally, but in context) in this way.




Oh well, I agree with this. But the result will be less cares and concerns. Merely thinking "I will not care about things anymore" does not suffice and if insisted upon, leads to an unhealthy state of detachment.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24821050 - 12/02/17 11:17 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
You cannot overestimate the unimportance of practically everything.

(Greg McKeown)

- - - - - - - - -

Learning to care less can take considerable effort. Caring less about certain things makes sense to me. It's the path to freedom.

For example, learning to care less about what others think. Caring less about my "mistakes". My opinions. Rude drivers.

I have several things in my life I'm learning to care less about. Do you? What do you think of this concept? Do you care?




-------

So what did Greg McKeown think was important? ie.: "You cannot overestimate the unimportance of practically everything "

Secondly why does one care wether one cares? Surely the hope is to avoid suffering.
Which is the basic instinct of all biological life. There is no moral dimension here at all.

To debate wether caring is moral, seems pointless in the face of the fact that all mammal mothers manifest what we would call 'caring' with perhaps the exception of birds like the cuckoo which lays its eggs in other birds' nests - but of course it is not a mammal, anyway at the evolutionary level it has evolved to make it's eggs match the victim species. None of these mammal mothers has any interest in ethics. The attempt to fit reality into essentially religious notions seems rather silly.

As to wether caring less is an effective strategy to lessen suffering, I suppose your milage may vary.
Certainly we all seek the carrot ( dopamine producing activities) and seek to avoid the stick (pain producing activities) as our main motivations.

In the case of victims of abuse we find dissociative  strategies employed. This would seem to be the extreme of 'not caring', however we all do it in more moderate forms.

Dissociation is only one of many defense mechanisms we employ as personalities.
(This was one of the things Freud got right, & is quite interesting, IMO)
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Defense_mechanisms

Once again there is no moral dimension involved. In order for ego to exist it must employ many defensive strategies. And during child development ego must form for the child to become a functioning member of society and survive. Spiritual awakening can only occur at a much later stage, and is unfortunately not the norm.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24821143 - 12/02/17 12:02 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
....
There isn’t such a thing as “calmly caring”, you either do or you don’t and it will affect you or not.




to care, does not mean to react but to have interest in and to be responsible for something or somebody.
the best way to be responsible is to be calm and clear, and add what help is necessary.
what you said misses the whole issue, probably because you have never helped out of clarity and interest.
There is hope for you yet, but you would be wise to recognize shit for shit and gold for gold.


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: laughingdog]
    #24821152 - 12/02/17 12:05 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:
Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
You cannot overestimate the unimportance of practically everything.

(Greg McKeown)

- - - - - - - - -

Learning to care less can take considerable effort. Caring less about certain things makes sense to me. It's the path to freedom.

For example, learning to care less about what others think. Caring less about my "mistakes". My opinions. Rude drivers.

I have several things in my life I'm learning to care less about. Do you? What do you think of this concept? Do you care?




-------

So what did Greg McKeown think was important? ie.: "You cannot overestimate the unimportance of practically everything "

Secondly why does one care wether one cares? Surely the hope is to avoid suffering.
Which is the basic instinct of all biological life. There is no moral dimension here at all.

To debate wether caring is moral, seems pointless in the face of the fact that all mammal mothers manifest what we would call 'caring' with perhaps the exception of birds like the cuckoo which lays its eggs in other birds' nests - but of course it is not a mammal, anyway at the evolutionary level it has evolved to make it's eggs match the victim species. None of these mammal mothers has any interest in ethics. The attempt to fit reality into essentially religious notions seems rather silly.

As to wether caring less is an effective strategy to lessen suffering, I suppose your milage may vary.
Certainly we all seek the carrot ( dopamine producing activities) and seek to avoid the stick (pain producing activities) as our main motivations.

In the case of victims of abuse we find dissociative  strategies employed. This would seem to be the extreme of 'not caring', however we all do it in more moderate forms.

Dissociation is only one of many defense mechanisms we employ as personalities.
(This was one of the things Freud got right, & is quite interesting, IMO)
http://psychology.wikia.com/wiki/Defense_mechanisms

Once again there is no moral dimension involved. In order for ego to exist it must employ many defensive strategies. And during child development ego must form for the child to become a functioning member of society and survive. Spiritual awakening can only occur at a much later stage, and is unfortunately not the norm.




If there is such a thing as spiritual awakening


--------------------
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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24821165 - 12/02/17 12:13 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

if there is ...
your skepticism as regards an undefined term is duly noted sir.

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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: laughingdog]
    #24823328 - 12/03/17 09:47 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

laughingdog said:

So what did Greg McKeown think was important? ie.: "You cannot overestimate the unimportance of practically everything"




I've heard some of his ideas, but haven't read his book, Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less

I asked someone recently, "What do you want to care less about?" She replied, "My pregnancy weight."

Every bit of energy we spend caring about unimportant things takes away from what is important.

We seek praise and fear blame.
We seek gain and fear loss.
We seek fame and fear insignificance.

Does caring about these things bring us peace or turmoil?

Quote:

laughingdog said:

Secondly why does one care whether one cares? Surely the hope is to avoid suffering.




Absolutely. Caring about unimportant things is one of the myriad of ways we cause our suffering.

Chronic disturbing emotions (anger, depression, and anxiety) are fueled by this phenomenon. 

When we investigate the root cause of chronic anger, depression, and anxiety, we discover an
enormous amount of caring about unimportant things. It's a challenge to abandon this habit.

To observe the attachment we have to the sources of our suffering is to see clearly how we create it.

One reason suffering is addictive is that suffering creates a strong sense of identity.

Once I heard someone say, "I don't know who I would be without my depression."

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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24823537 - 12/03/17 11:48 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

laughingdog said:

So what did Greg McKeown think was important? ie.: "You cannot overestimate the unimportance of practically everything"




I've heard some of his ideas, but haven't read his book, Essentialism: The Disciplined Pursuit of Less

I asked someone recently, "What do you want to care less about?" She replied, "My pregnancy weight."

Every bit of energy we spend caring about unimportant things takes away from what is important.

We seek praise and fear blame.
We seek gain and fear loss.
We seek fame and fear insignificance.

Does caring about these things bring us peace or turmoil?

Quote:

laughingdog said:

Secondly why does one care whether one cares? Surely the hope is to avoid suffering.




Absolutely. Caring about unimportant things is one of the myriad of ways we cause our suffering.

Chronic disturbing emotions (anger, depression, and anxiety) are fueled by this phenomenon. 

When we investigate the root cause of chronic anger, depression, and anxiety, we discover an
enormous amount of caring about unimportant things. It's a challenge to abandon this habit.

To observe the attachment we have to the sources of our suffering is to see clearly how we create it.

One reason suffering is addictive is that suffering creates a strong sense of identity.

Once I heard someone say, "I don't know who I would be without my depression."




You realize the error in stating “important” and “unimportant” as some kind of intrinsic qualities?

I also doubt that suffering is “addictive” as you say. Maybe people try to get better, fail, and then sink further in.

But important and unimportant are entirely subjective.

Of course most spiritual faiths don’t acknowledge this, and that’s why they fail.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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take care [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24823567 - 12/03/17 12:07 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I have to re-insert the meaning of caring by tying caring to the phrases "caring for", "caring about", and "taking care of" all of which indicate the application of care, or of being careful, considerate, and mindful about.

caring outside of conditions of these three postured verb usages can mean obsessing, and where that happens I would agree that obsessing less is smarter than obsessing more, however, except for obsessing, the application of care is the meaning that makes most sense for the word "caring".

Therefore, one thing you should be sensitive about is getting into a position where you say "I don't care" - this is the situation in which you lose your humanity, your ability to take care of things in your sphere of influence.


--------------------
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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: take care [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24823593 - 12/03/17 12:22 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
I have to re-insert the meaning of caring by tying caring to the phrases "caring for", "caring about", and "taking care of" all of which indicate the application of care, or of being careful, considerate, and mindful about.

caring outside of conditions of these three postured verb usages can mean obsessing, and where that happens I would agree that obsessing less is smarter than obsessing more, however, except for obsessing, the application of care is the meaning that makes most sense for the word "caring".

Therefore, one thing you should be sensitive about is getting into a position where you say "I don't care" - this is the situation in which you lose your humanity, your ability to take care of things in your sphere of influence.



Even within those three you can still be obsessive.

Also “humanity” can mean different things so it’s not exactly a term to describe a quality we should have. Slaughtering humans could be humanity


--------------------
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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: take care [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24824143 - 12/03/17 04:57 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

only if you have the wrong idea


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: take care [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #24824211 - 12/03/17 05:46 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Detachment as a necessity for peace of mind is perhaps most often associated with eastern philosophies such as yoga and Buddhism.
In both of these cases this result is not just achieved by changing attitude,
or just by changing physiology (meditation and breathing exercises),
or just by a combination of these two -
but also by building character, part of which is doing things one doesn't necessarily like.
(Or always doing things one generally only likes to do when convenient)
In yoga these are called yama and niyama.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=yoga+yama+and+niyama&t=hg&ia=web
in Buddhism this is called : the 8-fold path which is a subset of the 4 noble truths.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=buddhism+4+noble+truths+and+eightfold+path&t=hg&ia=web
Because this is difficult, often both a teacher and an ashram or something similar are involved.
In modern times brain wave studies have discovered significant results, among those who are long time practitioners of these methods.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: take care [Re: laughingdog]
    #24824228 - 12/03/17 05:56 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Of course simply by committing to a meditation teacher, or joining a sangha, or taking vows, one has already stopped caring about much of the trivia that occupies 'normal' society. Never the less those who take this route soon find many other inner obstacles to work with. But those who stick with it often are grateful for all the negativity that has been let go of.
In the everyday world of course we encounter many who are proud of their negativity, and lack any real insight, as to the causes of their own suffering, and the connection between the two.
As brain scans and EEGs become more sensitive and sophisticated, science will validate, for those who are more interested in observing than participating, the results of the eastern methods.

Edited by laughingdog (12/03/17 06:05 PM)

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: take care [Re: laughingdog]
    #24824328 - 12/03/17 07:18 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

you mean if you care enough to practice you will see some rewards?


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24824604 - 12/03/17 10:39 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:

You realize the error in stating “important” and “unimportant” as some kind of intrinsic qualities?




I didn't claim “important” and “unimportant” have intrinsic qualities. But if everything is important to you, nothing is important.

You can decide rude drivers are important to you, and get frustrated and angry every time you take a road trip.
Condemnation fuels ego, so it will serve a specific function. We invent many ways to create our discomfort.     

When people are diagnosed with terminal illness with a short time to live, often their stress and "problems" disappear. Why?
Maybe because they realize what they thought was important actually isn't.  They suddenly care less about many things.

Misery is alluring and seductive. Many people move from one source of unhappiness to another, as if they were at a buffet.

To feel miserable is to feel like the center of the universe. We all live in a dangerous neighborhood. 


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: take care [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #24824744 - 12/04/17 12:11 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

you mean if you care enough to practice you will see some rewards?




It's been said that awakening is a destructive process. It not about rewards.
It's the crumbling away of untruth and seeing through the facade of pretense.

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: take care [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 1
    #24825077 - 12/04/17 07:59 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Quote:

redgreenvines said:

you mean if you care enough to practice you will see some rewards?




It's been said that awakening is a destructive process. It not about rewards.
It's the crumbling away of untruth and seeing through the facade of pretense.




exactly

also has been stated as:
'the self that wants to be enlightened
is the self that is destroyed by enlightenment'

or

'Buddhism is not the liberation of the self
but
liberation from the self'

However note Buddhism does not say there is no self,
actually it is much subtler than that,
and attaching to a position on that subject as opposed to practice,
is seen as a not necessarily uncommon pitfall.
Much has been written on the subject, by experts,
so I will not elaborate here, especially as the knowledge
is available for free online.

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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: take care [Re: laughingdog]
    #24825135 - 12/04/17 08:46 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

in spite of what they do say,
if you do not apply yourself you will never come to understand what they said, or why they said it which is not quite how you imagine,
so you have to care in a calm way to apply yourself.

for example - you do not get rich by imagining how you would spend all that cash (daydreaming).

if you don't care you are careless


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