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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Learning to care less * 3
    #24818036 - 12/01/17 12:54 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You cannot overestimate the unimportance of practically everything.

(Greg McKeown)

- - - - - - - - -

Learning to care less can take considerable effort. Caring less about certain things makes sense to me. It's the path to freedom.

For example, learning to care less about what others think. Caring less about my "mistakes". My opinions. Rude drivers.

I have several things in my life I'm learning to care less about. Do you? What do you think of this concept? Do you care?


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24818196 - 12/01/17 04:09 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I don't really care about anytthing anymore and yes it gives you a certain freedom but I do miss the emotional rollercoaster that caring about things gives you sometimes.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24818411 - 12/01/17 09:28 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

care more - karuna
but do it with some tranquility
- that is awakening.
do not care less - that is like sleeping  - zombification


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24818423 - 12/01/17 09:40 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

thats a good point. states of detachment, depersonilization and ego dissolution can feel like enlightenment because you see life from a much more neutral perspective, you see what other people who are more involved in their personal story and seeing everything through that filter, don't see.

But often times, what i think is the case is that in these states emotions are blocked/not wanted to be felt and that is not very enlightened.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24818456 - 12/01/17 10:10 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
thats a good point. states of detachment, depersonilization and ego dissolution can feel like enlightenment because you see life from a much more neutral perspective, you see what other people who are more involved in their personal story and seeing everything through that filter, don't see.

But often times, what i think is the case is that in these states emotions are blocked/not wanted to be felt and that is not very enlightened.



You wouldn’t be neutral, you would just see it from a detached state. But the world and existence seen through detachment isn’t an accurate picture.

Not to mention the quote in the OP will lead to disaster as since nothing is important then neither is detachment also, or the lives of others, or your own. In a sense there would be little difference between you and an iPhone.

But saying you don’t care about mistakes sounds like an ego defense, same about what others think. Makes way for an echo chamber. Not to mention the guy you quoted is kind of undermined by the current evidence showing humans don’t have free will.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


Edited by Thanatos10 (12/01/17 10:29 AM)


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24818554 - 12/01/17 11:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I mean neutral in the sense of seeing less through the personal lense of your conditioning and the distortions created by your attractions and and aversions. I am curious to know why you don't think that would be more neutral than seeing through a narrower and hence more arbitrary lens of awareness.

I do believe there is a sense in which nothing is important. Nothing speaks for itself, its the meaning we give it that makes it seem so important. Its all ephemeral. If you car breaks down, life doesn't come and tell you need to feel sad about it. You choose to feel upset because you think this event somehow takes away from your peace or happiness. But it's entirely in the thinking about it that makes it so.

Reminds me of that old Hindu story, where the two boys from a village go off to war. One of the boys dies and the other is returning home safe. A messenger goes before him and tells the families the fate of their boys, but he accidentally mixes up the names so the family with the living boy is crushed and the family with the dead boy rejoices thinking he is coming home safe.

This is meant to show that its not the actual event of the boys death that causes the sadness, but the thinking about it. As long as his family thinks he is alive they are happy even though he is dead.

You can go on functioning and functioning well without believing events are important by allowing nature to function by her own designs.

For example, if I see someone in trouble it would be natural to feel compassion and want to help and take appropriate actions to do so. All this can be done without buying into the idea that the outcome is important.  We think in terms of outcome but life is process.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


Edited by Peyote Road (12/01/17 11:19 AM)


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24818602 - 12/01/17 11:35 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Actually the story doesn’t illustrate that. It’s the event of the death or return that elicites the emotion as well as the news. But it’s just a story and proves nothing.

Life is both process and outcome. But you saying that compassion is natural is false. It’s learned and even what is titled as appropriate actions is a matter of opinion for the “outcome” of reliving suffering. You are caring about the outcome, reducing suffering.

You don’t see things through a neutral lens, only your idea of what neutral is. Even then you wouldn’t be seeing truth because life doesn’t operate on “neutrality”. Neutrality would actually cloud your vision.

And you don’t choose how you feel, humans don’t have free will after all.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24818623 - 12/01/17 11:48 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

i feel like there is a difference in attitude/seeing entangement vs involvement. for example imagine two therapists, both are good therapists but one of them feels distress over the suffering of his patients, whereas the other is able to help them without becoming distressed at their suffering himself.  Both are aiming at reducing suffering, but only one is attached to the outcome.

I think the larger the perspective you take, the less individual events seem to matter. for example in games like chess, the more you accept that you're gonna make mistakes and the less you become distressed when you've made a mistake, the more you retain your ability to focus on making a comeback.

its the understanding that just because events seem to have taken a bad turn, doesn't mean you should stress over it because bad turns are to be expected in life.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


Edited by Peyote Road (12/01/17 11:50 AM)


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24818652 - 12/01/17 12:09 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
i feel like there is a difference in attitude/seeing entangement vs involvement. for example imagine two therapists, both are good therapists but one of them feels distress over the suffering of his patients, whereas the other is able to help them without becoming distressed at their suffering himself.  Both are aiming at reducing suffering, but only one is attached to the outcome.

I think the larger the perspective you take, the less individual events seem to matter. for example in games like chess, the more you accept that you're gonna make mistakes and the less you become distressed when you've made a mistake, the more you retain your ability to focus on making a comeback.

its the understanding that just because events seem to have taken a bad turn, doesn't mean you should stress over it because bad turns are to be expected in life.



The therapists one isn’t really true. They are both attached to the outcome, otherwise they wouldn’t be therapists. If you didn’t care about the outcome you would be a pretty terrible therapist. In any case, neither chooses how they feel.

The chess doesn’t illustrate a larger perspective, just a different one in regards to errors. But whet her it’s a game or more than a game, both are right. Trying to argue for either one does nothing. Bad turns being expected doesn’t diminish their impact.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24818700 - 12/01/17 12:28 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

well don't you think its a balancing act? if you care too much about the outcome it trips you up along the way but if you don't care at all about the outcome you have no incentive to move toward your intended goal. so you need to find a balance.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24818721 - 12/01/17 12:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

concepts about detachment are as fallacious as concepts about the ego and god.

Use the concept instead of calm, calming, and calmness.
with calmness and clarity (adding no additional junk), you are in a good position to care (take care of, care about, care for etc.)

caring is most attractive don't you think?


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24818736 - 12/01/17 12:41 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
well don't you think its a balancing act? if you care too much about the outcome it trips you up along the way but if you don't care at all about the outcome you have no incentive to move toward your intended goal. so you need to find a balance.



There is no balance. To have action you need to tip the scales. Balance leads to inaction.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24818748 - 12/01/17 12:48 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Peyote Road said:
well don't you think its a balancing act? if you care too much about the outcome it trips you up along the way but if you don't care at all about the outcome you have no incentive to move toward your intended goal. so you need to find a balance.



There is no balance. To have action you need to tip the scales. Balance leads to inaction.




Tip the scales so they weigh heavier toward being outcome attached? isn't that where most people are anyway?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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OfflineThanatos10
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24818800 - 12/01/17 01:11 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Quote:

Thanatos10 said:
Quote:

Peyote Road said:
well don't you think its a balancing act? if you care too much about the outcome it trips you up along the way but if you don't care at all about the outcome you have no incentive to move toward your intended goal. so you need to find a balance.



There is no balance. To have action you need to tip the scales. Balance leads to inaction.




Tip the scales so they weigh heavier toward being outcome attached? isn't that where most people are anyway?



And that’s why things get done. The fact is, there is a reason balance and detachment only work in monasteries or asceticism.

Humanity will not survive not being concerned about the outcome. It would be a serious step back.


--------------------
As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: Thanatos10]
    #24819897 - 12/01/17 09:21 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Thanatos10 said:

Not to mention the quote in the OP will lead to disaster as since nothing is important then neither is detachment also, or the lives of others, or your own.




The quote is, "You cannot overestimate the unimportance of practically everything."

The claim is that few things are truly important. The wisdom to care less about many things has been
a topic of philosophers, psychologists, and spiritual teachers. I could quote Epidicus or Christ, but won't.

Healthy detachment has helped me tremendously. My depression, anxiety, and anger (sometimes rage) in my
younger years was created and fueled by my strong attachment to my thoughts. Detachment isn't apathy.
Detachment is climbing out of the mind-stream and sitting on the river bank, instead of swimming in it.   

Now I'm more able to connect with people and help them and love them, using healthy detachment.

I recommend the book, "The Subtle Art of Not Giving a Fuck" by Mark Manson.

A wonderful book of psychology and philosophy, it's a fun to read guide for creating mental health.


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Re: Learning to care less [Re: RJ Tubs 202] * 2
    #24820019 - 12/01/17 10:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

detachment is a fallacy
relaxing and being calm may give the appearance of detachment, and you can develop the calm through meditation.

caring but being calm is good and honest

not giving a fuck is a fake magic trick. to be human you have to care more not less.

care in a calm way.


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Re: Learning to care less [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24820123 - 12/01/17 11:14 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

there is a reason doctors don't operate on family members
unfortunately escaping oneself is usually not so easy
the inner critical voice is why many famous artists drank too much
perhaps cognitive behavior therapy and or meditation may help some
in any case every culture and religion exaggerates the importance of many 'things'
and getting older by itself often mellows a person


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24820262 - 12/02/17 12:33 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

care in a calm way.




How can I calmly care if I'm swept up in a hurricane of volatile thoughts and emotions?

Detachment is a cornerstone of emotional intelligence and resilient mental health.

People with road rage who murder don't have the skills to calmly care.

People who shoot into a crowd don't have the skills to calmly care . . . etc


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Re: Learning to care less [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24820470 - 12/02/17 04:11 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'd argue relaxation is just a perception, and perception is all there is (at least while physical).

I don't think you know until you know that you can't really know how much you don't actually know/don't know (relativism is garbage, however).

That's what I observe and gather.


--------------------
"Take it easy, dude. But TAKE it!" - Terence McKenna


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Learning to care less [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24820494 - 12/02/17 04:53 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:
detachment is a fallacy
relaxing and being calm may give the appearance of detachment, and you can develop the calm through meditation.

caring but being calm is good and honest

not giving a fuck is a fake magic trick. to be human you have to care more not less.

care in a calm way.




The process of relaxation involves the letting go of cares and concerns. The two are not independent of each other.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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