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Offlinederanged
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Grey Fox]
    #24820355 - 12/01/17 11:47 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I am pretty sure one can have profound religious and spiritual experiences with meditation and yoga. The "problem" with those states is that they are accessible for only few people. It takes a lot of effort to be able to "let the cosmos pour into you" when being sober while it is a lot easier to facilitate profound experiences with psychedelics. I don't see why meditative experiences isn't be religious because they are different to psychedelic experiences. Psychedelic experiences themselves are different with different people and even the same person can have different experiences.

Arguably most meditative experiences aren't religious ones and I can't induce religious experiences through meditation but most psychedelic experiences are no religious experiences either. To me it seems it takes something independet of meditation/psychedelics to have a religious experience.


--------------------
Stretch these skies apart and burst through

Psychedelics and vegetarianism/veganism - Did psychedelics affect your diet? (poll)
Importance of good physical shape when tripping - please read this if you consider tripping while being ill

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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Grey Fox]
    #24820538 - 12/02/17 04:15 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Grey Fox said:
Certainly you can choose to interpret Christianity or Buddhism in that way.




This ^ is an important point, it is ultimately up to you how you choose to interpret Christianity/Buddhism/Islam etc.

I am outlining a particular way of interpreting the stories that we get from these religions, like the story of Jesus' crucifixion, Buddha's enlightenment, Mohammed's revelation etc. 

These religious stories depict individuals undergoing extreme, profound life-transforming mystical experiences. Psychedelic religionism chooses to interpret these stories as allegorical descriptions of psychedelic experiences.

Jesus eats the holy food at the Last Supper, he is then seized, judged, crucified and ressurected = a person eating mushrooms and experiencing mystical ego death. And this principle can be applied to all religious stories and all myths from every religion and culture

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InvisibleGrey Fox

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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe]
    #24820752 - 12/02/17 08:37 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Ok I understand where you're coming from now. Pretty interesting.


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IT WAS ALL A DREAM

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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe]
    #24820808 - 12/02/17 09:11 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilojoe said:
Quote:

Psilosopherr said:
Three taps to the same source.




This ^ is incorrect if we specify that the "source" is the intense psychedelic state of consciousness. Then there is only one tap leading to one source, which is drugs leading to a psychedelic trip experience.

It may or may not be true that tripping comes from the "unconscious mind", but that is irrelevant to the idea of psychedelic religion, that the religious stories describe the psychedelic altered state.

Even if dreams and meditative experiences come from the unconscious mind, the important point is that they are not the same thing as psychedelic experiencing. Dreaming and meditating do not show you what a psychedelic trip is like,  only drugs can do that.




Drugs are not the only tap, people undergoing near death experiences can experience things just as intense, bizarre, and mystical as psychedelic trips. It believe it also possible to trigger these sorts of experiences through certain practices and rituals that were known in ancient times but have largely been forgotten. It's not something the average person can easily accomplish on their own.

When you argue psychedelics are not same experience, a weakness in that argument lies in the fact that psychedelics aren't even the same as themselves. Taking magic mushrooms is not the same experience as taking LSD. They may share significant commonalities but there are also important differences. if we're going to count commonalities than I think we need to consider what commonalities these other experiences I mention have with psychedelic experiences. How much commonality does there need to be before we consider it "the same experience".


I agree that meditation doesn't produce the same experience as taking psychedelics but I wouldn't conclude that all religious stories were inspired by psychedelics. No doubt many probably were but what about the many saints and mystics who had profound visions and mystical experiences and did not take drugs? The visionary state can be triggered in various ways, not only through drugs.

Drugs are no doubt the quickest and easiest way to have these profound sorts of mystical experiences.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (12/02/17 09:14 AM)

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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe]
    #24821545 - 12/02/17 02:57 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilojoe said:
Quote:

Psilosopherr said:
feeling high and having hallucinations.....more fun than the others......the weirdest, the most profound.....






Your post contained several characterisations ^ of psychedelic tripping which effectively differentiates it from dreaming and meditating.

Tripping is far more intense, more profound, more bizarre and amazing than any dream or meditative experience: - religius stories depict people undergoing intense, profound and bizarre experiences.



so your prime interest is intense profound and bizarre experiences. What do you do with  that?

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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #24823124 - 12/03/17 07:29 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psilosopherr said:
your prime interest is intense profound and bizarre experiences.





My point is that terms like "profound" and "intense" etc. are helpful criteria for distinguishing psychedelic altered state experiences from dreams and meditative experiences.

This is precisely the reason to specify that religion describes the psychedelic altered state, as opposed to describing dreams and meditative experiences which are comparatively low-intensity and low-profundity.

Religious stories and myths depict people undergoing profound, intense and life-transforming experiences: such as Jesus being crucified and resurrected, Buddha being enlightened under the Bodhi tree, Mohammed receiving an revelation from an angel, Arjuna having a vision of Krishna etc etc etc. These stories can all be interpreted as allegorical descrptions of psychedelic tripping.

Edited by psilojoe (12/03/17 07:46 AM)

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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe] * 1
    #24823145 - 12/03/17 07:56 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Terms like 'profound' and 'intense' can and have been rightfully used to describe some meditative states and revelations.

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Offlinederanged
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe]
    #24823314 - 12/03/17 09:33 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilojoe said:
My point is that terms like "profound" and "intense" etc. are helpful criteria for distinguishing psychedelic altered state experiences from dreams and meditative experiences.



Then your point seems to be invalid as it is based on a lack of information. Yogis say real meditative experiences are so profound, they are even dangerous for unprepared people. And I think this might be true. If you learn to unlock  such a profound state without having to do anything but work your mind, you want to be able to control it or you're gonna have a bad time. Also have you never heard of people having profound dreams, waking up sweating or even highly agitated and what not?


--------------------
Stretch these skies apart and burst through

Psychedelics and vegetarianism/veganism - Did psychedelics affect your diet? (poll)
Importance of good physical shape when tripping - please read this if you consider tripping while being ill

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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: deranged]
    #24823326 - 12/03/17 09:46 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I guess it depends on how you define a meditate experiences. Meditation can be incredibly intense and profound, especially if you awaken kundalini. Meditation can also be just a being a little more aware.


There are so many types of mediation and so many different possible meditative experiences.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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OfflinePsilosopherr
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: deranged]
    #24823366 - 12/03/17 10:11 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

deranged said:
Quote:

psilojoe said:
My point is that terms like "profound" and "intense" etc. are helpful criteria for distinguishing psychedelic altered state experiences from dreams and meditative experiences.



Then your point seems to be invalid as it is based on a lack of information. Yogis say real meditative experiences are so profound, they are even dangerous for unprepared people. And I think this might be true. If you learn to unlock  such a profound state without having to do anything but work your mind, you want to be able to control it or you're gonna have a bad time. Also have you never heard of people having profound dreams, waking up sweating or even highly agitated and what not?



Some 20 year old who really likes acid and doesn't have a lot of information about the topics he finds himself interested in. Clearly hasn't read much about dreams, which again I recommend to the OP because they go deeper than you know. Things get very profound and strange, should be right up your alley.

Tripping might be a way to interpret the big religious stories, so tripping balls is the ultimate religious practice :themoreyouknow:

If he can take this beyond "tripping is crazy, its kinda like in bible stories," this thread will be off the ground. Again, what do you do with that? What are you left with the day after an intense profound trip other than a knowledge that it was similar to what our historical prophets experienced?

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InvisibleGrey Fox

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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe]
    #24823378 - 12/03/17 10:19 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

psilojoe said:
Quote:

Psilosopherr said:
your prime interest is intense profound and bizarre experiences.





My point is that terms like "profound" and "intense" etc. are helpful criteria for distinguishing psychedelic altered state experiences from dreams and meditative experiences.

This is precisely the reason to specify that religion describes the psychedelic altered state, as opposed to describing dreams and meditative experiences which are comparatively low-intensity and low-profundity.

Religious stories and myths depict people undergoing profound, intense and life-transforming experiences: such as Jesus being crucified and resurrected, Buddha being enlightened under the Bodhi tree, Mohammed receiving an revelation from an angel, Arjuna having a vision of Krishna etc etc etc. These stories can all be interpreted as allegorical descrptions of psychedelic tripping.





Earlier you said that you were choosing to interpret these ancient stories through the lens of the psychedelic experience. But here you are saying that the original meaning of these stories is to describe the psychedelic experience. These are 2 radically different approaches. What proof do you have that the original stories are definitely referring to psychedelic states and not to something else?


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IT WAS ALL A DREAM

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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Grey Fox]
    #24824608 - 12/03/17 10:41 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Grey Fox said:
Earlier you said that you were choosing to interpret these ancient stories through the lens of the psychedelic experience. But here you are saying that the original meaning of these stories is to describe the psychedelic experience. These are 2 radically different approaches. What proof do you have that the original stories are definitely referring to psychedelic states and not to something else?




What i am saying is that all religious stories and myths can be interpreted as highly sophisticated allegorical descriptions of psychedelic experiencing, in particular the experience of bad trip, temporary psychosis, loss of control, ego death/rebirth etc.

The 'proof' simply comes from looking at the stories and seeing how they conform to psychedelic experience, and considering how plausible this particular interpretive lens seems to be

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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24824617 - 12/03/17 10:44 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
I guess it depends on how you define a meditate experiences. Meditation can be incredibly intense and profound, especially if you awaken kundalini. Meditation can also be just a being a little more aware.

There are so many types of mediation and so many different possible meditative experiences.




Meditation is not the same as psychedelic tripping, it is an entirely different kind of experience, meditating does not make people trip like mushrooms and LSD

Edited by psilojoe (12/03/17 10:45 PM)

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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24824628 - 12/03/17 10:48 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
When you argue psychedelics are not same experience, a weakness in that argument lies in the fact that psychedelics aren't even the same as themselves. Taking magic mushrooms is not the same experience as taking LSD. They may share significant commonalities but there are also important differences.




They are both a "psychedelic 'trip' experience, which is a specific kind of mental alteration, that only occurs after ingesting psychedelic drugs

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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe]
    #24824833 - 12/04/17 02:28 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Yeah, so?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe]
    #24825193 - 12/04/17 09:16 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

just type "tripping is different from meditating" 5 times, maybe change the title of the thread to that and we can call this thread good and done, no need to beat around the bush :beatadeadhorse:

Does the OP have any other points or insights beside this and the parrallels with bible stories?

"Tripping is different from meditating, that is the extent of what I have to say" :rofldrunk: you should write a book bro

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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #24825319 - 12/04/17 10:40 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

My aim here is to clearly explain psychedelic religion, to eliminate misunderstanding.

Quote:

Psilosopherr said:
"tripping is different from meditating"............ the parallels with bible stories?





Both these ^ ideas need to be understood in order to fully grasp the psychedelic theory of religious interpretation.

If you do not accept that tripping on drugs is entirely different from dreaming or sober meditating, that means that you are not familiar with the unique cognitive dynamics of the psychedelic state of consciousness and you will not understand how scriptural religious stories model these dynamics.

This thread demonstrates that people find it difficult to directly acknowledge that tripping is not the same as meditating/dreaming. Several posters have argued that tripping is the same as meditating or dreaming, using the following arguments:

Yogis/mystics/saints/rare-people can trip when they meditate without drugs
Some dreams and meditative experiences are profound/bizarre/intense
Drug trips and dreams/meditations all come from "the unconscious mind"
There are "many paths to the same peak"

etc.

These arguments are just avoidance strategies to dance around the simple unavoidable point: that psychedelic experiencing is a distinct state of consciousness, separate from dreaming and ordinary sober consciousness.

Psychedelic tripping is unique to the drug-induced state, it is a specific, temporary alteration of cognitive processing which is described in detail by religious stories and myths. Religion is description of the psychedelic experience.

Edited by psilojoe (12/04/17 10:45 AM)

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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Psilosopherr]
    #24825385 - 12/04/17 11:17 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Psilosopherr said:
what do you do with that? What are you left with the day after an intense profound trip other than a knowledge that it was similar to what our historical prophets experienced?




the most profound and intense psychedelic experience is mystical ego death and rebirth, which is the central focus of the religious mythology.

Fully integrated psychedelic initiation (metaphysical enlightenment) gives a person an entirely new understanding of concepts like self, time, reality, God, religion etc.

Edited by psilojoe (12/04/17 11:18 AM)

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InvisibleHelnak
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: psilojoe]
    #24825388 - 12/04/17 11:21 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I don't think anybody is saying that tripping is the same as meditating.  We are just pointing out that you are dismissing a widely documented practice.  It is possible to have the same profound realizations and revelations whether tripping or meditating.  You have absolutely nothing to back up what you are saying and present nothing to discount our arguments.

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Offlinepsilojoe
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Re: Psychedelic Religion - the radical alternative paradigm [Re: Helnak]
    #24825412 - 12/04/17 11:39 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Quote:

Helnak said:
the same profound realizations and revelations whether tripping or meditating.





This ^ is false, if you specify that the "profound realizations and revelations" that you get from tripping is the content of the actual experience itself, the altered state of consciousness, a 'trip'.

You cannot get the experience itself (a psychedelic trip) without drugs. Without drugs, you wont be able to find out what an intense psychedelic trip is like, because a psychedelic trip only happens after you take drugs

Without psychedelic drugs you don't get the "profound realisation" of what it feels like to trip hard on psychedelic drugs
Without psychedelic drugs you don't get the "revelation" of what it feels like to trip hard on psychedelic drugs

Because (as some posters grudgingly admit) tripping is a different kind of experience from meditating, tripping feels very different to the way sober meditating feels. Tripping is much more intense, colourful and weird etc. than meditating. You don't get a psychedelic trip when you sit down and sober meditate.

Edited by psilojoe (12/04/17 11:43 AM)

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