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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: mushboy]
    #24803132 - 11/24/17 01:41 AM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
:sad:

mono got the mean green. i officially suck and i officially banish oats from my house to the depths hell.
i cant help but think its more than just coincidental that with everything i poured, only the oats tammed out after spawning.

either way, i should of poured all my grains in one session but meh. that what happens when you say 'fukkit' too many times:nono:

first time ive seen green pre flush 2 in like ...uh ..:shrug:




Ive seen that sentiment time and time again about oats. Im sure there are clean oats out there. But why go through heart ache when birdseed is cheap and fuckin works wayyyy more reliably.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: mushboy]
    #24803262 - 11/24/17 03:59 AM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
:sad:

mono got the mean green. i officially suck and i officially banish oats from my house to the depths hell.
i cant help but think its more than just coincidental that with everything i poured, only the oats tammed out after spawning.

either way, i should of poured all my grains in one session but meh. that what happens when you say 'fukkit' too many times:nono:

first time ive seen green pre flush 2 in like ...uh ..:shrug:




That sucks man, I know what it feels like dealing with shit grain, it's all I work with :shrug: but the oats won the fucking nastiness award. You've got your trusty WBS though.

Actually the main reason I became interested in LC's was because the grains I can get locally are really bad quality, burst like crazy and to cap it all they're dirty as hell, so I'm forced to sterilize the shit out of them, at least 3 hours at very high psi.
The grains will dry out some with such extended pc cycles and that can slow down colonization substantially. With LC's I can see a reasonable 12-14 days colonization if I pour generously.

I say this in case someone has a similar problem with shit grain. You can sterilize the shit out of them and use LC's for faster colonization and to balance out the moisture content.

Also Mush, all it takes to make an LC is poking a culture with a needle. You can do lots of smaller LC's easily (enough for 4 grain jars for instance) that will be ready to use fast, so no need at all to make big LC's if you aren't gonna be able to use it all in one go.
For smaller LC's you can make any vessel work. A simple, small glass water bottle with a narrow neck and a metal screw cap is truly badass for pouring small LC's and you don't even need to filter it or modify the bottle in any way.

Just throwing some ideas around.


Edited by Josex (11/24/17 07:03 AM)


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: mushboy]
    #24803267 - 11/24/17 04:09 AM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:

I knew of the noob method where you stab a fruit and squirt the tissue into lc...  But not josex' method.





I was just going to ask if you could simply tear a fruit open and quickly stab from the interior...  Is that a worse idea?


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: nubgrower]
    #24803272 - 11/24/17 04:22 AM (4 years, 5 days ago)

It's not a bad idea if you scalpel some tissue out of the fruit and put it on agar, just to get a clean culture and then use that to inoculate the LC. You could introduce contams when you tear the fruit or who knows maybe the interior of the fruit is not 100% sterile as we like to think, maybe clean enough to put some tissue on agar the standard way and go from there, I don't really know.

Transferring some tissue to agar first is gonna make you lose some days alright but I'd rather do that than being all uncertain about the LC being clean or not, and a fucky LC is gonna teach you the hard way to be more patient next time around.  You'd also want to keep a back-up of the clone on agar just in case it turns out to be keeper. :shrug:


You could also poke the interior of the fruit with the needle and shoot the biopsy on agar, that'll let you know quickly if the tissue is clean. If there's bacteria the water you squirted will help it bloom on the agar fast before the myc starts to show growth.

Cut corners if you wish, I know I wouldn't.


Edited by Josex (11/24/17 04:59 AM)


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: Josex]
    #24803282 - 11/24/17 04:38 AM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Cool, that makes sense.  Wouldn't want to noc 24 jars with a shitty LC... ouch

So the main benefit of trying this out is that you can get many, many jars started at once, vs. agar to grain, then g2g which would be slower?

Do the jars colonize faster with this method vs agar to grain (tiger drop)?


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: nubgrower]
    #24803286 - 11/24/17 04:51 AM (4 years, 5 days ago)

Quote:

nubgrower said:
Cool, that makes sense.  Wouldn't want to noc 24 jars with a shitty LC... ouch

So the main benefit of trying this out is that you can get many, many jars started at once, vs. agar to grain, then g2g which would be slower?

Do the jars colonize faster with this method vs agar to grain (tiger drop)?




Of course they'll colonize faster, LC's are among the fastest inoculants.

You're right, the main benefit is that once you have some experience with agar and know when a culture is clean you can poke it to make a shit ton of clean liquid inoculant. All it takes to get phat stacks of easy and clean spawn is poking a single culture with a needle, versus having to expand a culture into countless plates to inoculate grains. You don't really need to do G2G either if you do LC's.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: Josex]
    #24803610 - 11/24/17 10:56 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Even if oats were bad it should have absolutely nothing to do with mold contamination


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24803631 - 11/24/17 11:08 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Don't mold spores die at a lower temp than bacteria?


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24803651 - 11/24/17 11:17 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Theres only a handful of molds/mold spores that will handle temps above 170.

byssochlamys' spores can handle up to 190F but thats super rare anyway.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24803665 - 11/24/17 11:26 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Well good to know that a boil will kill all those fuckers.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24803668 - 11/24/17 11:27 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

So for me the theory would be if oats are bad they go bacterial easy and then mold has an easier time at spawning to take hold.
So to me its an issue of telling if your spawn is clean before using it


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24803691 - 11/24/17 11:45 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

I am seeing a correlation of better spawn with a shorter hydration time. I am now bringing water to a boil, shutting off and dumping oats in and soaking for 25 min. I was going 40-45 and having bad issues. Eat recommended dropping it to 30 and things got better. I backed it to 25 and seemed to get a few less burst grains and nice oats. Things have gotten better doing this as it seems to help the oats absorb any remaining water during the PC cycle. I think the longer soak was fully hydrating them and they were unable to soak up any moisture left. Which in turn made it easier for bacteria to spread and thrive.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24803698 - 11/24/17 11:48 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Im the other way i boil 30m but usually forget and they go 45+m

Some get burst.

I still manage to have them roll around like pea gravel in the jar after sterilization and that's using no gypsum.

Idk oats have been a blessing for me.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24803706 - 11/24/17 11:54 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

It seems to have greatly improved things for me. It is possible my oats naturally have a higher moisture % than yours do. I know it wouldn't be a HUGE difference, perhaps a couple %. Maybe the containers/ volume of water could affect it based on retained temp during the soak?:shrug:

EDIT**

I can say this. I recently made 10 jars of oats this way. Poured LC and ended up using close to 300ml on the jars so poured to much. Now I don't have to much moisture building up on the glass and when I shake them, I can actually JUST SHAKE and not have to beat them against my hand, this is with NO gypsum. I was NEVER able to do that before, this is the 1st time I have been able to break the spawn apart with just a hard shake.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24803709 - 11/24/17 11:55 AM (4 years, 4 days ago)

I get agrimaster brand from farm and fleet.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24803762 - 11/24/17 12:17 PM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Even if oats were bad it should have absolutely nothing to do with mold contamination



In Mush' case it could be he introduced mold in the jars during inoculation, because his jars didn't look bacterial, don't know about the oat bag though cos I didn't see it. But he says only the oats gave him bad results, not WBS, which makes me think the moldy tubs could have been caused by a weakened sub.

I was referring to my experience with bacterial oats the few times I said fukkit and spawned them to bulk, they'd mold due to the sub being weak with bacteria. Everybody knows spores die at low temps, even my mom :thumbup:


Edited by Josex (11/24/17 12:25 PM)


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: Josex]
    #24803804 - 11/24/17 12:37 PM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Every different type of grain has a different type of prep. (Duh)

I feel alot of people switch around alot. Just find the way to prep your grain and stick with it fuggit. Unless your willing to learn how to make that new grain perfect.

One thing may work for someone and not another vice versa. There are so many variable's with grain prep it makes my head spin. You really gotta tweak it yourself with what you have around you.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: van hatton] * 1
    #24803881 - 11/24/17 01:06 PM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Quote:

van hatton said:
Every different type of grain has a different type of prep. (Duh)

I feel alot of people switch around alot. Just find the way to prep your grain and stick with it fuggit. Unless your willing to learn how to make that new grain perfect.

One thing may work for someone and not another vice versa. There are so many variable's with grain prep it makes my head spin. You really gotta tweak it yourself with what you have around you.


:getstoned:




A bad grain prep could certainly contribute to bacterial spawn if for example you make them too wet. But what I really don't get is why everybody, or nearly everybody seems to always blame a bad grain prep every time they get bacterial grains consistently, without taking into account that sometimes it doesn't matter how well you prepare your grains if these happen to have unaceptable endospore counts where a regular 2hrs pc cycle won't do shit to solve anything. If the grains are really bad they won't quit no matter how well you prep them.

Of course, you could introduce bacteria via inoculant or bad technique. If it is bad technique I really don't think you can introduce nearly enough cpu's in the jars to even begin to compare with the heavy bacterial contamination bad grains can give you. And a bacterial inoculatant, like for examplen an agar plate, should be so bad to give you that level of contamination cause by bad grains that even a rank noob coul tell something's wrong with the plate. Very few people ever consider the possibility of shit grain, and I really don't get this.

Besides, when you have bad grains and therefore consistent bad results with it, you're quickly going to notice a trend, the smell caused by bad grains is unmistakable, that sweet smell. And if you observe carefully, you're also going to notice that myc reacts in a very specific way to bacterial grains versus bacterial issues caused by bad inoculant or bad technique.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: Josex]
    #24803889 - 11/24/17 01:10 PM (4 years, 4 days ago)

Probably because there is still the argument about ALL endospores dying in X amount of time. What we do know is extra moisture helps spread it around the jar. So one that's wet with extra moisture, possible from prep, may tam out while one that doesn't have extra moisture would not tam out, while both originated from the same culture, that my of had a slight bit of bacteria.


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Re: The Biopsy Method: A different way of doing LC. [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24803912 - 11/24/17 01:20 PM (4 years, 4 days ago)

One thing I will throw out there. All though it is unlikely that this class of bacteria would be on our grains, they thrive at high temps and the one I am about to paste can survive 250f.

_____________________________________________________________________

What Is a Thermophile?

They like it hot and steamy. No, this isn't the first line in a bad romance novel, but it is a story of love. It's a story about thermophiles, or organisms that love the heat. In fact, their name even means 'heat lover.' They thrive in temperatures ranging from 140 degrees F to 226 degrees F (that's 60 - 108 degrees C).

Thermophile Examples

Thermophiles are a type of extremophile, or organism that loves extremes. Most thermophiles belong to the Archaea Domain, which was not even discovered until the 1970s. Other members of the Archaea Domain include other extremophiles like halophiles, which love salt, and acidophiles, which love acid. You may have noticed by now that the suffix phile means 'love.'

Because thermophiles like hot temperatures, they are found in some of the most hostile environments on Earth. For example, they can survive in hot springs or even in hydrothermal vents found under the ocean. Thermophiles survive on gases, minerals, and metals that can be found in these extreme environments.

Scientists have found a thermophile, Methanopyrus kandleri, that can survive in temperatures in excess of 250 degrees F. It currently holds the record for hottest thermophile, although scientists have only begun to scratch the surface in thermophile diversity, so who knows what the record holder will be in a few years.


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