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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Question RE: "Natural Rights"
    #2479701 - 03/29/04 02:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I don't know if this belongs here or in S&P, but since we've had discussions here before regarding Natural Rights, I figured this would be the place to post it. Some here have said that your rights are basically anything that you could do if you were the only person on earth(correct me if I'm wrong). Now, I'm wondering where the right to a fair trial by a jury of one's peers fits into this. Were the founding fathers mistaken in including that as a right?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: silversoul7]
    #2479724 - 03/29/04 02:17 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Some here have said that your rights are basically anything that you could do if you were the only person on earth(correct me if I'm wrong).

That's not exactly correct. What is correct is to say that in the absence of multiple humans, "rights" is a null concept. The concept of "rights" requires the context of "society", where society is defined as two or more humans interacting within the same geographical boundaries.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: Phred]
    #2479755 - 03/29/04 02:27 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Ok, but then how do you determine what rights people have?


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: silversoul7]
    #2479767 - 03/29/04 02:31 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Through observation and logic.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: Phred]
    #2479775 - 03/29/04 02:33 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Through observation and logic.

pinky



Sounds a bit vague. Karl Marx would probably consider his findings to be the result of observation and logic.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: silversoul7]
    #2479819 - 03/29/04 02:53 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

But Karl Marx would be wrong.

Okay -- just to get you started, let's go back to your comment in your opening post --
Quote:

Some here have said that your rights are basically anything that you could do if you were the only person on earth(correct me if I'm wrong).


If, for example, you were alone on a desert island, you could trap fish in the lagoon, and keep all the fish you caught. You could gather fallen palm fronds, weave a bowstring from them, and construct a bow from a likely-looking branch. You could make arrows from other branches or reeds or whatever, and using the bow and arrow hunt the island's small mammals for food.

The fish are yours, the bow and arrows are yours, the hat you wove from palm fronds is yours, the mammals you hunted are yours.

One day, a second human washes ashore. He says that half the fish you caught are his, half the mammals you caught are his, and while you're at it, make him a hat, too.

Is he correct? Does he have a right to the things you have obtained through your own efforts?

If your answer is yes, please explain.

pinky


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: Phred]
    #2479851 - 03/29/04 03:01 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The answer is no. But how does the right to a trial by jury fit into this? I hope I'm not making this too complicated.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: silversoul7]
    #2479859 - 03/29/04 03:03 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

It is important to understand the difference between a right and a liberty.
In the US, I have the freedom to say what I want, within limits.
I also have the right to my reputation; If another person publicly makes an unsupportable accusation, I can sue them for slandering me, because they have violated my right.

For every right you have, there is a corresponding limit to another persons freedom.

In the natural state, liberty is complete, but there are no rights. I have the freedom to kill you: you have no right to life. I have the freedom to rape you: you have no right to controll your own body.

This is my take:
Rights impose limits on freedom.
Naturally (in the absense of society, and its corresponding social, moral, and legal codes), there are no limits on freedom.
Therefor, there are no natural rights.


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: Phred]
    #2479874 - 03/29/04 03:11 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Responding to pinksharkmark's deasert island hypothetical:

It depends if we are civilized men who are temporarily stranded, or if we are totally lacking in those learned things which allow people to cooperate as groups.

If you are stranded on a desert island, and I wash ashore, it is my hope that you will share what you have, and that we can cooperate in the future to improve our common lot. I think this would most likely be possible because we are both raised as civilized people, and we the moralls and behaviors that we learned when we were young are very much a part of our natures.

In the "natural state", the man who comes along has the freedom to take what he can. If I am skinny and weak from living on a desert island, he has the freedom to take the fruits of my labor, just as I have the freedom to try to stop him. Since there is no society, no moral code, no platform from which to judge the situation, there is no right and no wrong. He would not be in violation of my rights to take what I produced, or even to kill me and eat my carcass.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: Phred]
    #2480032 - 03/29/04 03:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

If, for example, you were alone on a desert island, you could trap fish in the lagoon, and keep all the fish you caught. You could gather fallen palm fronds, weave a bowstring from them, and construct a bow from a likely-looking branch. You could make arrows from other branches or reeds or whatever, and using the bow and arrow hunt the island's small mammals for food.

The fish are yours, the bow and arrows are yours, the hat you wove from palm fronds is yours, the mammals you hunted are yours.

One day, a second human washes ashore. He says that half the fish you caught are his, half the mammals you caught are his, and while you're at it, make him a hat, too.





Well, thats definitely not right, but would it be right for the first person to say that he owns the whole island, and that the second person couldn't fish or hunt there without paying some kind of gratuity?


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Offlinevalour
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2480098 - 03/29/04 04:02 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Only if he has a flag!


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I didn't sell out-
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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: Phred]
    #2480377 - 03/29/04 05:08 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

That's not exactly correct. What is correct is to say that in the absence of multiple humans, "rights" is a null concept. The concept of "rights" requires the context of "society", where society is defined as two or more humans interacting within the same geographical boundaries.

hahahaha... before you go defining what is a society- with your typical baseless authoritarian tone- do yourself a favor and take even one political philosophy class, or if not that, at least state that it's simply your opinion.


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2480535 - 03/29/04 05:43 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Which part of my statement does your poli sci prof say is incorrect?

That in the absence of other humans, rights is a null concept?

Or that society is defined as two or more humans interacting within the same geographical boundaries?

pinky


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: silversoul7]
    #2480558 - 03/29/04 05:51 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

A right is simply something that you are entitled to. Some are god given, others aren't. If the law of that society says you are entitled, then you are. Canadians have the right to health care. We don't.

I would disagree with many rights that some governments endowed to their people that place an undue burden on other citizens, but there are also some we should have that we don't. The right to privacy for example.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


Edited by HagbardCeline (03/29/04 06:57 PM)


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2480583 - 03/29/04 05:57 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Not everyone has a need for someone else to tell them how to think. It was quite clear that was his own definition in the context of this discussion. If you are going to claim something wrong, you need to attempt to explain your position without resorting to the typical ad hominem attack.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: Phred]
    #2480629 - 03/29/04 06:13 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

I told you to take a political philosophy course so you could contribute without dictating your mere opinions as gospel, apparently you haven't read any of the most respected political philosophies; that, or you think your view trumps them.

But since you STILL fail to see the pure arrogance behind asserting philosophical conjectures as "correct" or "incorrect," your first statement is atypical to the "anarchical" or "natural state" that most philosophers characterize null law by, which is also independent of the the number of individuals. Your second statement asserts that "society" now follows the definition of two people on an island/shared geographical space interacting, which is a simplistic, non-relational definition. Well I'll be damned, I guess we should be teaching your vague posts in class now, unless of course you're finally willing to start a post with "in my opionion" or "I see it this way."


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2480661 - 03/29/04 06:22 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Why didn't you clearly begin your post by stating that this is your opinion?

Being that most of the threads here are members debating their positions, it is by nature opinion. Is it really neccesary that we being every post with IMO?


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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InvisibleTrueBrode
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2480682 - 03/29/04 06:30 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

Not the same, do i really need to elaborate on this or are you that thick?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2480720 - 03/29/04 06:48 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

How about giving your definitions of 'natural rights' and 'society?'


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Question RE: "Natural Rights" [Re: TrueBrode]
    #2480818 - 03/29/04 07:09 PM (13 years, 8 months ago)

The concept of natural, or god given rights is ridiculous. Nature is not a thing that can grant rights and god does not exist. The idea of rights is something created by men/women as a code whereby we can get along with a minimum of conflict. Or a maximum of conflict, it doesn't matter. Where individual rights conflict (i.e. your right to sing versus my right to quiet at 4 A.M.) we have forums for dispute resolution (i.e. courts). I have the right to be left alone. Or do I have the obligaton to pull you out of a burning car? Go to law school. I think I will some day


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