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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Ziran]
#24767080 - 11/07/17 05:12 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
sir_spins_alot said: I thought the longer soak time was too germinate spores to then pressure cook and kill?
Doesn't a PC kill endospores?
Quote:
Ziran said: I like doing foo mans wbs tek except I rinse 5 to 10 times first and then do the hot water simmer deal. can you do a round like that for science?
Do you mean rinse them, room-temp soak for 24h and then simmer for 20 min? Can you explain more in detail please? And sure I'm planning on doing many different methods. My goal is to find highest % hydration without a single burst grain.
Just give me ideas guys, this was the plan all along, we are experimenting together, but maybe only one of us has the lab at his house right now
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (11/07/17 05:13 PM)
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Ziran
The Hero of Time




Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 6,030
Loc: Temple of Time
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24767094 - 11/07/17 05:16 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I do it exactly how foo man does it, except I rinse them first instead of after the simmer
-------------------- Song Of Healing
Updated Pf Tek Guide Ziran's Teks AMU Q&A Thread The Chinese word for nature is zรฌrรกn and it means that of which is of itself.

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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Ziran]
#24767188 - 11/07/17 05:42 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ziran said: I do it exactly how foo man does it, except I rinse them first instead of after the simmer
Okej, I was under the impression that Fooman's was 24h soak no simmer, my bad. I will have to get back to his Teks and read trough one more time, it was long ago.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24767226 - 11/07/17 06:00 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said: After 20 min of being dumped in a pot of hot water (after removing the pot from heat after full boil) Fooman style I think

After 60 min in hot water soak 60-85 degrees C (165-210F)

Seems I already did the experiment you requested, in two different versions.  Only thing not included is the pre-rinse of WBS, but I don't see how that would affect the hydration %.
Also FooMan says simmer 30-60 min, but my experiments show that there is quite a big difference between 30 and 60 min simmer. About 15% more hydration difference. That's a lot! 
Edit: Well my test was actually 20 and 60 min, not 30 and 60 but one can sort of imagine what level hydration 30 min would give, probably around 53-55% somewhere. Now I have to do a 2h simmer to see what that experiment will uncover (except burst grain)
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (11/07/17 06:03 PM)
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Ziran
The Hero of Time




Registered: 02/03/16
Posts: 6,030
Loc: Temple of Time
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24767234 - 11/07/17 06:01 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5265629
just like this, except rinse first. You never know, rinsing the gunk off first might allow them to absorb more water.
-------------------- Song Of Healing
Updated Pf Tek Guide Ziran's Teks AMU Q&A Thread The Chinese word for nature is zรฌrรกn and it means that of which is of itself.

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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Ziran]
#24767261 - 11/07/17 06:14 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Ziran said: https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/5265629
just like this, except rinse first. You never know, rinsing the gunk off first might allow them to absorb more water.
Yes I did exactly that and left them for 20 min instead of 30 and didnรฆt rinse them after. But the rinse wouldn't have changed anything. If I would have left them to simmer for 30 min instead of 20 I probably would have gotten around 53-55%% hydration instead of 51%.
And the longer simmer I did for 1h resulted in 66% hydration. So we have FoooMans Tek in 2 versions minus the post-rinse. We have also concluded that results of hydration can vary quite a bit with FooMan's Tek depending if you're simmering for 30 or 60 min. ~53-66% hydration.
To tell you the truth my WBS look clean as hell, what little dust is on them and a few twigs here and there, I honestly can't see how they can be covered in anything that would affect hydration. But if one does have really dirty ass WBS then I guess one could give them a rinse before
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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LemurLemur
Pray for Boog



Registered: 01/30/17
Posts: 6,004
Loc: Drinking on the roof
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24767435 - 11/07/17 07:17 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Aint shit living after a proper pc cycle, if it'll blister your skin with .5 seconds of contact its burning all those cooties in the 2 hours.
--------------------
 (when my data is fast play Lemur in chess at chess.com)[ [gradient:#D40B29,#18C418]Any1 expecting a trade from me i havent forgot about you pinky promise, i fr promise shits just shit rt now[/gradient]
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FooMan



Registered: 02/02/05
Posts: 8,957
Loc: Earth
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja] 1
#24767582 - 11/07/17 08:06 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you for taking the time to do this! 
Remember that although you are seeing a difference between the 30 & 60 minute soaks that my WBS is still fairly wet when I load it into my jars/bags before putting them into the PC. That extra water also gets absorbed into the WBS during the sterilization cycle.
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Quick WBS Prep
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: FooMan]
#24767604 - 11/07/17 08:14 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
FooMan said: Thank you for taking the time to do this! 
Remember that although you are seeing a difference between the 30 & 60 minute soaks that my WBS is still fairly wet when I load it into my jars/bags before putting them into the PC. That extra water also gets absorbed into the WBS during the sterilization cycle.
Yes a good point! I was also thinking about another thing. What about rinsing newly simmered WBS with cold tap water to cool down the WBS fast and that way stop the heat from continuing the evaporation process and trap more of the water inside. I will do this test tomorrow to see if I notice any difference
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Lucretius
Lurker



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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24767826 - 11/07/17 09:55 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said: After 20 min of being dumped in a pot of hot water (after removing the pot from heat after full boil) Fooman style I think
From an ROI standpoint I don't see how this is going to be beat... it's just so fast. Also seems like anything above this moisture content is unnecessary unless you can clock in a lower time.
GOAT wbs prep
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Lucretius]
#24768373 - 11/08/17 06:33 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lucretius said:
Quote:
Mateah said: After 20 min of being dumped in a pot of hot water (after removing the pot from heat after full boil) Fooman style I think
From an ROI standpoint I don't see how this is going to be beat... it's just so fast. Also seems like anything above this moisture content is unnecessary unless you can clock in a lower time.
GOAT wbs prep
That all depends on which % hydration the myc prefers, if it colonizes fastest on 30% hydrated WBS or 50%, or 70%. The whole point is to figure out the best and most successful method for fast healthy colonization. Not necessarily the fastest grain preparation, even tho we have come to learn that a 7h room temp soak is virtually the same as a 24h soak. The more you experiment.... 
Also it will probably be a few more weeks before I have an isolate on my hands to test out the speed of recovery and colonization on the different hydration %. But as it is now, you are correct, it is hard to beat 66% hydration in 20 minutes TOTAL prep time 
(unless you really have an issue with a few burst kernels) But all can be fixed and adjusted! Cheers guys
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JHOVA
Post whore



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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24768494 - 11/08/17 07:50 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Why not clone a pin on an agar plate or in vitro quart jar brf puck? Why waste time on isolate?
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๐ด ๐ฐ ๐ผ ๐ฒ ๐ป ๐ธ ๐ฝ ๐ถ ๐
๐
๐ฐ ๐ฟ
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: JHOVA]
#24768506 - 11/08/17 07:54 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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I actually have 3 different clones ready, I guess I could conduct the experiment with a clone as well, thanx!  They were all cloned from knots and primordia from a perti dish.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
Edited by Mateja (11/08/17 07:56 AM)
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pixelpopper
Crap Artist


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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24768619 - 11/08/17 08:42 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Loving this thread
Since I am all about simplifying wherever possible, without sacrificing results, I would love to be able to reduce soak time. 7 Hours? Hell yeah 
I don't understand why you guys still do all that simmering and overwashing? Like Mateah said, the WBS is already pretty clean and rinses clean very quickly... it even works without cleaning it. The only time I put a lot of effort into cleaning my WBS is when I have left a bag in my garage for a year and its been infested with bugs.... even then its not even necessary really, save for potential issues with clumping if there is enough gunk to cause a problem. But fresh from the store, its pretty clean already 
The simmering just seems like a waste of time to me... is there some reason you guys still do this other than habit?
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: pixelpopper]
#24770884 - 11/09/17 06:46 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Update!
After 48h soak in room temp water

Seems a 48h soak hydrates better at 55% than the 20 min hot soak does at 51%. And the WBS looked really nice after the 24h soak, no burst grain and they all looked really plump and firm at the same time. But none of this matters at all, what matters is testing out how mycelium colonizes the different moisture levels inside grains, the upcoming experiments will focus on colonization times with one one my clones.
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Lucretius
Lurker



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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24785489 - 11/15/17 05:43 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Mateah said: What matters is testing out how mycelium colonizes the different moisture levels inside grains, the upcoming experiments will focus on colonization times with one one my clones.
So to clarify, you'll have - Same PC time @ 15psi - Same Clone - Same quantity of wbs per jar - Same incubation temps What other controls am I missing? Also could you specify what strain you're using. Thinking about it in this way makes it see like there are just too many variables to account for for every strain. It's probably futile to hope that many different species all ~basically~ prefer the same hydration level isn't it?
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Lucretius]
#24785519 - 11/15/17 05:58 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lucretius said:
Quote:
Mateah said: What matters is testing out how mycelium colonizes the different moisture levels inside grains, the upcoming experiments will focus on colonization times with one one my clones.
So to clarify, you'll have - Same PC time @ 15psi - Same Clone - Same quantity of wbs per jar - Same incubation temps What other controls am I missing? Also could you specify what strain you're using. Thinking about it in this way makes it see like there are just too many variables to account for for every strain. It's probably futile to hope that many different species all ~basically~ prefer the same hydration level isn't it?
- Same PC time - Same clone (or isolate) - Roughly the same 'amount' based on volume (it will be impossible to match both volume and quantity of grain since the more hydrated grain will have bigger volume) - Same incubation temps
I currently only have the Mazatapec variety of cubensis, and I have several clones to work with. I will most likely perform the experiment over and over with different clones to see if I get a different outcome. If you have any ideas please chime in!
I will most likely perform the test with 7h room temp soak, 48h rooms temp soak and 60min hot water soak. I choose these three since they offer the biggest differences in hydration %. 7h=40% hyd. 48h=55% hyd. and 60min Hot soak=66& hyd. I will do 6 of each, so 18 qt jars altogether. Hopefully 6 will be enough to at least give some kind of general insight. We'll see! Keep your eyes up, this experiment starts this week, I just need enough inoculant. Most likely will do LI inoculation since that will allow for the most 'fair' distribution of inoculant. I'm still taking advice so shoot guys!
Should I make sure that the volume is the same in all hydrated WBS jars? Should I make sure the number of grain is the same in all jars? Or should I make sure the weight is the same in all jars? This confuses me a bit... What would be most fair?
Edited by Mateja (11/15/17 06:12 PM)
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somegirl
Registered: 08/28/17
Posts: 197
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja] 1
#24785973 - 11/15/17 09:33 PM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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You should use the same DRY amount per jar - whatever they came out to after the various soaks doesn't matter, you should use the same raw dry ingredients/nutrition in each jar.
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Mateja



Registered: 07/14/16
Posts: 7,948
Loc: Here
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: somegirl]
#24786355 - 11/16/17 05:27 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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Thank you for your tip! My only concern about that would be that the difference in volume would be pretty big between WBS hydrated to 40% and WBS hydrated to 70%. The myc would have 30% 'more' volume to colonize and that would not be fair when it comes to colonization times. Even if they finish simultaneously I would have to assume that the jar with the biggest volume colonized the fastest. But you know what? I think I'm gonna do all variations of the test, both by volume and by weight!
-------------------- Cakes inside Water Tub
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Zyiadem
Smokes Catnip



Registered: 10/07/17
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Re: WBS hydration methods -[EXPERIMENT]- [Re: Mateja]
#24786676 - 11/16/17 09:14 AM (6 years, 3 months ago) |
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keepin an eye on this.
Good science!
-------------------- I don't know shit. And the more I know, The more I realize it.
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