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OfflineTipote
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What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria?
    #24784358 - 11/15/17 11:25 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

There are multiple reasons why people went to Syria.

Some have called for citizenship to be revoked, some call for deradicalisation programmes.

How would you approach this issue?


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Invisiblerelic
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: Tipote]
    #24784519 - 11/15/17 12:33 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

good question.

while there are myriad reasons that cause someone to become radicalized enough to go overseas to fight alongside daesh, i have no sympathy for them wrt whatever consequences they face upon return to their homeland.  i guess i have only so much sympathy to go around and they get none, even if they're repentant.

i've read a tiny bit about the deradicalization programs being run in both Britain and the US but i have my doubts about the efficacy thereof in the vast majority of cases.


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: Tipote] * 2
    #24784668 - 11/15/17 02:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Good post. Here's my perspective:

I think, where possible, that community involved opportunities to deradicalize and rehabilitate should be used.

When that doesn't seem like an option to the community, then I see nothing wrong whatsoever with death to returning daesh fighters. I'm certainly not willing to be a prison guard or help support a prison system. If other communities and individuals would prefer to do that with people they don't feel they can rehabilitate , then I can respect that -- but it isn't the choice I would recommend or make myself.


Edited by shivas.wisdom (11/15/17 02:22 PM)


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OfflineTipote
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #24791385 - 11/18/17 01:12 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Thanks for replies.

I was thinking more generally about those going to Syria - not just those who went to fight with da'esh.

Some went to fight against daesh - with the YPG and other groups.
Some went to fight against the Syrian army and joined groups that didn't have access to the equipment needed so they joined the groups that were more equipped - which tend to be the more extremist islamist groups like da'esh and al-nusra. Those people might have then had to shut up about disagreements they had with da'esh ideology and some might have absorbed the da'esh perspective for their own.

Some of those returning back from the fight against Da'esh are being classed as terrorists. I'm thinking particularly of the brave souls joining YPG battalions in their battles against da'esh. I'm against the persecuting of those antifascists who went to fight against da'esh.

Some of those who went to join da'esh were young, naive, and were sucked into a situation they sometimes didn't understand the full details of. People's perceptions of reality are clearly molded by the internet and people grooming others to join the cause might have dismissed the negatives as Western propaganda. When people get there, they realise the reality and often don't have a choice about leaving. Some were just women and children who were just brought along.

I agree that deradicalisation programmes are severely lacking and don't address the legitimate grievances many people have against the wars that are being waged. I would ideally want that to be improved upon to have a tool to deradicalise those who accept they were wrong.

Personally, I am against revoking people's citizenship regardless of why they were there. Investigations should be done on a case by case basis. Revoking citizenship doesn't help anything, it just continues on the naive idea that stuff "over there" doesn't affect us at home. It's also just wrong on legal principle. If people have committed crimes then they can be put on trial.

I'd be open to the gathering of intelligence from those returning, in order to build up a broader view of the activities of others and the situations on the ground.

It gets tricky legally when we have to think about whether we can lock people up during investigations. The terrorism act in the UK has a limit for how long you can hold people without charge which is controversial in itself.


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Invisiblerelic
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24795361 - 11/20/17 12:18 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

for US citizens (or anyone from a western nation, really) fighting with the YPG, i support their full repatriation upon return to their homeland. 

in a roundabout way it gets sort of tricky for US citizens, legally speaking, with the PKK being a designated terrorist org. but the YPG, IMO, should definitely be considered separately and those fighting alongside these extremely brave soldiers shouldn't be persecuted.


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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: relic] * 3
    #24795565 - 11/20/17 02:13 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

We should at least revoke their library cards.


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Invisiblerelic
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: krypto2000]
    #24797300 - 11/21/17 09:54 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

:lol:


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OfflineTipote
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: relic]
    #24797402 - 11/21/17 11:08 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

cool, so apparently its not too controversial a topic. I thought some would want citizenship revoked or even executions but maybe those posters aren't commenting.


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Offlineqman
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: Tipote] * 1
    #24797631 - 11/21/17 01:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I will be having Thanksgiving with a young man from Syria on Thursday, he was born in the US but lived most of his life in Syria. He's enrolled in the same graduate program as my niece.

I know his parents still live in Syria and he comes from a highly educated family.

I also know his English is kind of rough since he's only been in the US for one year now. He never celebrated a Thanksgiving before so my family will give him a good one is the plan.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: qman] * 2
    #24797746 - 11/21/17 02:39 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
I will be having Thanksgiving with a young man from Syria on Thursday, he was born in the US but lived most of his life in Syria. He's enrolled in the same graduate program as my niece.

I know his parents still live in Syria and he comes from a highly educated family.

I also know his English is kind of rough since he's only been in the US for one year now. He never celebrated a Thanksgiving before so my family will give him a good one is the plan.




Good! I'm glad you'll give him a welcoming Thanksgiving :thumbup:

but didn't you say they are incompatible with western society?!


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Offlineqman
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: Tipote]
    #24797825 - 11/21/17 03:16 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Tipote said:
Quote:

qman said:
I will be having Thanksgiving with a young man from Syria on Thursday, he was born in the US but lived most of his life in Syria. He's enrolled in the same graduate program as my niece.

I know his parents still live in Syria and he comes from a highly educated family.

I also know his English is kind of rough since he's only been in the US for one year now. He never celebrated a Thanksgiving before so my family will give him a good one is the plan.




Good! I'm glad you'll give him a welcoming Thanksgiving :thumbup:

but didn't you say they are incompatible with western society?!




The really don't know much about this young man other than he's done very well in a very challenging science field with very minimal English speaking skills, that in itself is a very respectable achievement.

His English continues to improve and it must be noted that he is already highly educated in his field. I think it's very clear that he comes from the higher part of Syrian society and that makes him more of the exception than the rule.

Whether his value system is compatible with Western culture is something I do not know, my guess is that he's very grateful to be given the opportunity to study and work in the US as a US citizen.  Does that mean people from Syria should have an open door to the US? Absolutely not.

I also know that when someone recently asked him about the political unrest taking place in his homeland he wasn't very open to discussing the situation, so I have no intention of making a person uncomfortable discussing a very stressful personal issue.


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OfflineTipote
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: qman] * 1
    #24797863 - 11/21/17 03:37 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
The really don't know much about this young man other than he's done very well in a very challenging science field with very minimal English speaking skills, that in itself is a very respectable achievement.
His English continues to improve and it must be noted that he is already highly educated in his field. I think it's very clear that he comes from the higher part of Syrian society and that makes him more of the exception than the rule.



There are quite a few very well educated syrian refugees, are they all exceptions to your rule?
Quote:

Does that mean people from Syria should have an open door to the US? Absolutely not.



huh? :confused:
Quote:

I also know that when someone recently asked him about the political unrest taking place in his homeland he wasn't very open to discussing the situation, so I have no intention of making a person uncomfortable discussing a very stressful personal issue.



I can imagine.


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Offlineqman
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Re: What should be done with Western citizens returning from Syria? [Re: Tipote]
    #24802750 - 11/23/17 08:40 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I had a great Thanksgiving with this Syrian young man, he was very intelligent, funny and just a pleasure to be around.

We talked about ME politics, history, economics and anything that we could discuss.

At the end of the day my whole family was extremely impressed with this gentleman, we all had a great time.  :thumbup:


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