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Invisibleeeso
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FDA issues strong warning against kratom
    #24781948 - 11/14/17 10:04 AM (8 days, 18 hours ago)

The Food and Drug Administration on Tuesday issued a public health advisory about the potential risks of an herbal supplement called kratom, warning that people who use it to treat pain in place of opioids or to wean themselves off opioids are exposing themselves to an unregulated product that has not been proven safe or effective.

The announcement from FDA Commissioner Scott Gottlieb is sure to rile devoted kratom users, who contend the supplement has provided them with a way to manage pain, anxiety, and a range of other conditions.

“Kratom has raised significant concerns given its increasing prevalence and potential safety risks,” Gottlieb said in a statement, adding that regulators know of 36 deaths tied to products containing kratom and that related calls to poison control centers spiked tenfold from 2010 to 2015.

Kratom is a plant from Southeast Asia that taps into some of the same brain pathways as opioids. It can be purchased easily online and in some stores, and even from a vending machine in Arizona.


Last year, the Drug Enforcement Administration announced it intended to temporarily list ingredients found in kratom as Schedule 1 drugs — defined as having no accepted medical use and a high risk for addiction — before abandoning the plan after an outcry from kratom advocates.

But Gottlieb’s statement shows the government is still worried about kratom, which people often use to treat conditions without seeing a doctor. Because the product is not regulated and is often bought online, it can sometimes be laced with other substances.

The FDA’s public health advisory was focused on kratom broadly, but Gottlieb seemed to focus on its use as an opioid-replacement therapy. While there are medications that can help people ease opioid addictions, there is no reliable evidence to support kratom’s effectiveness for that, nor has its safety profile been tested, Gottlieb said.

“Patients addicted to opioids are using kratom without dependable instructions for use and more importantly, without consultation with a licensed health care provider about the product’s dangers, potential side effects, or interactions with other drugs,” Gottlieb said.
Related Story:
Kratom with a side of cheesesteak: A sub shop’s vending machine draws customers desperate to kick opioids

Gottlieb said the plant should go through the FDA’s regulatory process to determine if it is safe and effective, but that no company has tried to develop kratom as an actual regulated product yet.

“While we remain open to the potential medicinal uses of kratom, those uses must be backed by sound science and weighed appropriately against the potential for abuse,” Gottlieb said. “They must be put through a proper evaluative process that involves the DEA and the FDA.”

He added: “If proponents are right and kratom can be used to help treat opioid addiction, patients deserve to have clear, reliable evidence of these health benefits.”

https://www.statnews.com/2017/11/14/kratom-fda-warning/


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OfflineAllGreyThumbs
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: eeso] * 12
    #24782013 - 11/14/17 10:39 AM (8 days, 18 hours ago)

Translation:

Everything must be brought under the control of the corpro-governmental system.  People must serve the system, have permission from the system, and pay into the system.  Even if kratom is beneficial, you should not be using it until we permit you to use it and you are following our rules, paying us for the privledge.  You are not free individuals.  You are only free in the context of being able to choose from establishment approved options and lifestyles.


--------------------
I only use drugs medicinally.  If I don't my knees hurt from kneeling down.


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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: AllGreyThumbs] * 2
    #24782111 - 11/14/17 11:29 AM (8 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

AllGreyThumbs said:
Translation:

Everything must be brought under the control of the corpro-governmental system.  People must serve the system, have permission from the system, and pay into the system.  Even if kratom is beneficial, you should not be using it until we permit you to use it and you are following our rules, paying us for the privledge.  You are not free individuals.  You are only free in the context of being able to choose from establishment approved options and lifestyles.




No, what they're saying is that you can use it if you want, but it hasn't been proven safe. The only evidence we have is anecdotal, which isn't reliable. Get out of your world of conspiracy theories and look at something objectively.


--------------------
"I knew right away she was not like other girls" - Robert Hunter

My most trusted cultivators with the best, most current writeups:

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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: 36fuckin5] * 2
    #24782268 - 11/14/17 12:57 PM (8 days, 15 hours ago)

They can warn about it all they want that's fine. Telling people coffee is hot is good. Just lay off banning it at least until it becomes medical.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: 36fuckin5] * 5
    #24782421 - 11/14/17 02:14 PM (8 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Quote:

AllGreyThumbs said:
Translation:

Everything must be brought under the control of the corpro-governmental system.  People must serve the system, have permission from the system, and pay into the system.  Even if kratom is beneficial, you should not be using it until we permit you to use it and you are following our rules, paying us for the privledge.  You are not free individuals.  You are only free in the context of being able to choose from establishment approved options and lifestyles.




No, what they're saying is that you can use it if you want, but it hasn't been proven safe. The only evidence we have is anecdotal, which isn't reliable. Get out of your world of conspiracy theories and look at something objectively.




Except for all the research into kratom from all around the world :lol:

Hell I saw one study that shows kratom has potential to help with diabetes FFS :facepalm3:

Personally I think thousands of years of human use is a way better testement to kratom's safety then some corporate funded study or trials to prove some new medication is "safe" even though it has a list of side effects bigger then some short stories, side effects that often include death or other serious issues... The FDA seems to have no problem approving all sorts of dangerous meds...

And pharma companies clearly have no problem lying about the safety of their products, and even bribing doctors to lie to their patients...


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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InvisibleMush 4 Brains
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: CookieCrumbs] * 1
    #24782434 - 11/14/17 02:20 PM (8 days, 14 hours ago)

"But Gottlieb’s statement shows the government is still worried about kratom, which people often use to treat conditions without seeing a doctor"

Jesus fucking reptilian Christ is that short little quote loaded.

The powers that be want us to be slaves to our doctors/government.

I like freedom personally..


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Offlineconcretelush
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #24782436 - 11/14/17 02:21 PM (8 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Quote:

AllGreyThumbs said:
Translation:

Everything must be brought under the control of the corpro-governmental system.  People must serve the system, have permission from the system, and pay into the system.  Even if kratom is beneficial, you should not be using it until we permit you to use it and you are following our rules, paying us for the privledge.  You are not free individuals.  You are only free in the context of being able to choose from establishment approved options and lifestyles.




No, what they're saying is that you can use it if you want, but it hasn't been proven safe. The only evidence we have is anecdotal, which isn't reliable. Get out of your world of conspiracy theories and look at something objectively.



Try to think objectively, and consider that maybe in some respects, your both right. History shows us that politics will use any stratedgy to promote it's agenda. We know too little of big pharma, and the FDA's plan to definitively come to conclusions.


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: concretelush] * 2
    #24782446 - 11/14/17 02:25 PM (8 days, 14 hours ago)

"Proven safe" is clearly subjective, but I would argue it has been proven to be very safe.

Inversely there are tons of drugs that have been proven unsafe yet remain legal and poorly regulated. IE alcohol, tobacco, all sorts of pills, etc.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineViolet Wizard
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: musiclover420] * 1
    #24782463 - 11/14/17 02:33 PM (8 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Personally I think thousands of years of human use is a way better testement to kratom's safety then some corporate funded study or trials to prove some new medication is "safe" even though it has a list of side effects bigger then some short stories, side effects that often include death or other serious issues... The FDA seems to have no problem approving all sorts of dangerous meds




My issue with this is its like stating "people have been doing cocaine for thousands of year, addiction must not be real or it would be documented" The issue with this line of thought is you are not observing the fact some people do 30-50g a day which is about 210g-350g a week, unless you had a farm or servants no one in the 1700s was clearing entire fields of kratom for personal use for years daily. It is entirely possible that there are liver or other complications after extended daily use, you simply can not make "its been used for 1000s of years" as a valid argument with instant communication and lightning fast delivery.

It is my theory that instant communication is part of the reason we have so many addiction issues. My mother, a child of the 60s, remembers either having to know the sketchy dude that hangs out at the soda jerk or a biker to get dope (not an addict or user herself but i was so we had conversations about the changes in drug use over the years) but my point is... that man didnt have a cell phone, you would have to prearrange or hope he was there with product. These days you can mass text all the dealers in a city and be to one in 10 mins, this is completely different then say waiting for an opium ship from England to arrive on the docks.


--------------------
Promise me to pass the time. Dance with me on plastic tears. Kiss me, we won’t feel alone, till morning when we disappear.



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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: Violet Wizard] * 2
    #24782481 - 11/14/17 02:43 PM (8 days, 14 hours ago)

Quote:

Violet Wizard said:
Quote:

Personally I think thousands of years of human use is a way better testement to kratom's safety then some corporate funded study or trials to prove some new medication is "safe" even though it has a list of side effects bigger then some short stories, side effects that often include death or other serious issues... The FDA seems to have no problem approving all sorts of dangerous meds




My issue with this is its like stating "people have been doing cocaine for thousands of year, addiction must not be real or it would be documented" The issue with this line of thought is you are not observing the fact some people do 30-50g a day which is about 210g-350g a week, unless you had a farm or servants no one in the 1700s was clearing entire fields of kratom for personal use for years daily. It is entirely possible that there are liver or other complications after extended daily use, you simply can not make "its been used for 1000s of years" as a valid argument with instant communication and lightning fast delivery.

It is my theory that instant communication is part of the reason we have so many addiction issues. My mother, a child of the 60s, remembers either having to know the sketchy dude that hangs out at the soda jerk or a biker to get dope (not an addict or user herself but i was so we had conversations about the changes in drug use over the years) but my point is... that man didnt have a cell phone, you would have to prearrange or hope he was there with product. These days you can mass text all the dealers in a city and be to one in 10 mins, this is completely different then say waiting for an opium ship from England to arrive on the docks.




Except coke addiction has been heavily documented for a long ass time :lol: as have the negative health effects of abusing coke.

Just look at the coke and opioid industries... Where as kratom is a jungle tree, people aren't being forced to work kratom fields so people can profit from addicts.

Hell the only reason kratom was made illegal in it's native land is because the Thai government was losing revenue from opium sales due to addicts getting clean with kratom...


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineViolet Wizard
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: musiclover420]
    #24782497 - 11/14/17 02:53 PM (8 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Except coke addiction has been heavily documented for a long ass time :lol: as have the negative health effects of abusing coke.

Just look at the coke and opioid industries... Where as kratom is a jungle tree, people aren't being forced to work kratom fields so people can profit from addicts.




As of the 1800s cocaine was studied but it has been used by native for "thousands of years" that is my point "thousands of years" is meaningless when you take modern life into account.

You wouldnt happen to have sources showing there isnt an kratom slave labor field as well as one for the Thailand issue would you? Not trying to say your wrong but those seem like sunshine and rainbow answers about how much better this particular plant is then other ones. Also cocaine is a tree that grows in the forest too...


--------------------
Promise me to pass the time. Dance with me on plastic tears. Kiss me, we won’t feel alone, till morning when we disappear.



Edited by Violet Wizard (11/14/17 02:54 PM)


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: Violet Wizard]
    #24782525 - 11/14/17 03:07 PM (8 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

Violet Wizard said:
Quote:

Except coke addiction has been heavily documented for a long ass time :lol: as have the negative health effects of abusing coke.

Just look at the coke and opioid industries... Where as kratom is a jungle tree, people aren't being forced to work kratom fields so people can profit from addicts.




As of the 1800s cocaine was studied but it has been used by native for "thousands of years" that is my point "thousands of years" is meaningless when you take modern life into account.

You wouldnt happen to have sources showing there isnt an kratom slave labor field as well as one for the Thailand issue would you? Not trying to say your wrong but those seem like sunshine and rainbow answers about how much better this particular plant is then other ones. Also cocaine is a tree that grows in the forest too...




Yes but the coke market has been so big for so long that coca plantations have been common for a long time.

There are kratom plantations too but it's a slow growing huge tree so it's not like you can grow it for a cash crop like poppies.

If you do a little research there are definitely sources for why kratom was outlawed in Thailand, they weren't very sly about it.

I can't guarantee there is no slave labor involved in the kratom market because it's so unregulated. But I highly doubt it and if it does exist I wager it's not very uncommon.

Most kratom suppliers in Asia seem to be rural farming families that harvest and process kratom trees for some extra income, considering how cheap it is there doesn't seem to be much incentive for slave labor. Compare kratoms 75-100$ a kilo price to cocaine's which is like 25,000$ a kilo. I doubt coca grows wild all over too like kratom :shrug:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 12,113
Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: musiclover420] * 1
    #24782557 - 11/14/17 03:22 PM (8 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:

Personally I think thousands of years of human use is a way better testement to kratom's safety then some corporate funded study or trials to prove some new medication is "safe" even though it has a list of side effects bigger then some short stories, side effects that often include death or other serious issues... The FDA seems to have no problem approving all sorts of dangerous meds...





This is the crux of the issue. Some people believe whatever they read on the internet.

However, the FDA approval process is well-defined and requires particular types of studies. The warning from FDA is letting people know that despite the many accounts on the internet, kratom hasn't met the regulatory burden for approval. Consider the simple fact of ordering Kratom, there's no oversight on purity consistency etc.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


Edited by badchad (11/14/17 03:25 PM)


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: badchad] * 1
    #24782568 - 11/14/17 03:30 PM (8 days, 13 hours ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
Quote:

musiclover420 said:

Personally I think thousands of years of human use is a way better testement to kratom's safety then some corporate funded study or trials to prove some new medication is "safe" even though it has a list of side effects bigger then some short stories, side effects that often include death or other serious issues... The FDA seems to have no problem approving all sorts of dangerous meds...





This is the crux of the issue. Some people believe whatever they read on the internet.

However, the FDA approval process is well-defined and requires particular types of studies. The warning from FDA is letting people know that despite the many accounts on the internet, kratom hasn't met the regulatory burden for approval. Consider the simple fact of ordering Kratom, there's no oversight on purity consistency etc.




Keep in mind the FDA is using kratom as an excuse to ask for more "regulatory oversight"... Not just for kratom but in general, so this is pretty much a ploy to get more funding/power...

People also often believe whatever their doctors tell them, even when those doctors are paid to lie about the safety of new "non addictive" pain meds...

Personally I trust the general consensus of thousands of people over doctors whose jobs are the profit from medications.

If kratom is made illegal like the DEA and FDA clearly want then the consistency will go down even more. Right now there are tons of reliable vendors that sell quality kratom at a cheap price. The worst I have heard about are bits of metal shavings ending up in some kratom batches due to the metal grinders used to powder kratom, and those vendors all issues warnings and refunded all effected batches.

I hope to see more regulation in the kratom industry but that isn't what the FDA is shooting for as you can't patent kratom, so they will try and ban it then make medications from kratom's alkaloids to sell at a much higher price...


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: musiclover420] * 2
    #24782577 - 11/14/17 03:35 PM (8 days, 13 hours ago)

For those of you who still think there is little to no research into kratom take a look at this: 250+ kratom studies

I see a lot of people claim there is no research into kratom which is just plain false.

What's true is there have been no clinical trials for kratom, and there may never be. Why? Because you can't patent a plant. So why would anyone fund trials for a plant they can't profit off?

Anyways trials don't mean much to me. How many medications have gone through extensive trials to be released to the public yet still carry a plethora of side effects and risks? Way too many if you ask me, that doesn't give me much faith in said "trials".


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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Invisiblebadchad
Mad Scientist

Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 12,113
Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: musiclover420]
    #24782622 - 11/14/17 03:58 PM (8 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

musiclover420 said:


What's true is there have been no clinical trials for kratom, and there may never be. Why? Because you can't patent a plant. So why would anyone fund trials for a plant they can't profit off?





Because you get exclusivity, which (generally) is just as valuable as a patent. The majority of drugs are "off patent" once approved.

Quote:

musiclover420 said:
Anyways trials don't mean much to me. How many medications have gone through extensive trials to be released to the public yet still carry a plethora of side effects and risks? Way too many if you ask me, that doesn't give me much faith in said "trials".




I don't know, how many? An alternative perspective would be to compare the number of approved drugs to those removed from the market. I suspect the ratio is high, as relatively few drugs are pulled after approval, though this is a matter of perspective.

If placed in a clinical trial, the side effects of kratom would likely be just as extensive. Have trouble pooping?  That's an adverse event. Nod a little bit, feel good?  Those are "euphoria" and other AEs.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436


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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: badchad] * 2
    #24782633 - 11/14/17 04:02 PM (8 days, 12 hours ago)

The sad shit is that they are going to make this a felony.  As well as a profitable leaf to smuggle, which lowers commercial standards.

The war against people self medicated with natural remedies is very real.  They have talked before about scheduling EVERY SINGLE medical herb.  Funny thing is lot's of it just grows around, but scheduled means ILLEGAL to just casually have without a permit/script.

It's it's natural, plant based, and even remotely is considered a recreational drug....they slap the big 'old fuck me in the ass prison FELONY on that.

I say FUCK YOU FDA!


--------------------
Nike made me do it


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: badchad]
    #24782635 - 11/14/17 04:07 PM (8 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

If placed in a clinical trial, the side effects of kratom would likely be just as extensive.




In some ways maybe, but kratoms side effects are relatively mild compared to say even tylenol which kills hundreds if not thousands every year.

Kratom doesn't cause respiratory depression like most pain killers, and it's basically impossible to OD on plain kratom leaf. Even water causes toxicity in excess.

Kratom also has a plethora of medicinal value, from being packed full of antioxidants to relieving pain and anxiety, even possibly treating diabetes.

So I think if you compared the pro's and cons of kratom to even relatively mild meds like tylenol the medicinal value vastly outweighs any possible negative effects.


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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OfflineMorel Guy
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: musiclover420]
    #24782638 - 11/14/17 04:09 PM (8 days, 12 hours ago)

Ya but don't forget about the kids and children....they might be getting high and reading satanic books and having premarital intercourse.  Then they will never get that fancy desk job working for the FBI they always dreamed of (since 9-11-2001).


--------------------
Nike made me do it


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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: FDA issues strong warning against kratom [Re: Morel Guy]
    #24782646 - 11/14/17 04:12 PM (8 days, 12 hours ago)

Quote:

Morel Guy said:
Ya but don't forget about the kids and children....they might be getting high and reading satanic books and having premarital intercourse.  Then they will never get that fancy desk job working for the FBI they always dreamed of (since 9-11-2001).




It's ironic as time has proven prohibition doesn't help keep drugs away from kids, it does the literal opposite :lol: Yet politicians still use the old "think of the children" BS...

Hell Sessions has been claiming legalizing cannabis will somehow worsen the opiate epidemic even though all available data shows the opposite happening :facepalm3:

Now they are trying to use the same argument about kratom which is ridiculous...


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free



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