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OfflineMycoLife
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Registered: 11/11/17
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Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate.
    #24775445 - 11/11/17 11:04 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

With the increases popularity of bokashi(lacto-bacterial fermentation) 'composting' in organic gardening, I've seen multiple sources stating that breaking down scrap organic mater with Lactobacillales helps break down and partially digests the media making the nutrients more up-available for plants and fungi, and that fungal growth explodes when the fermented media is added to the soil or a compost pile.

My theory is that inoculaing grain spawn with Lactobacillales and partially fermenting wheat grain spawn between rehydration and sterilizing would :

1) break down harder to digest carbohydrates and fiber in the spawn making it more bio available for mycellial growth.

2) lower the PH (make more acidic similar to yogurt or kimchi) of the grain spawn media to a level that is still or possibly more hospitable for fungal growth and would make bacterial contamination more difficult.

3) by sterilizing the spawn after fermentation you would remove/ kill bacteria, and halt the digestion of the spawn at an optimal PH or at the optimal level of pre-digestion.

  As with most lacto-fermented foods, the point is that the food would be inhospitable to bacteria and fungal contamination by lowering the PH to around 4. 

Several tests would need to be run for each fungi to determine what variables work best.

A) (my main theory) light fermentation (1-4 days) to help with colonization and nutrient availability. Monitoring the pH level and sterilizing the spawn before the PH becomes too low for mycelial growth.

Or

B) A Longer fermentation period, leading to more broken down easier to digest media that would need to have the PH adjusted back up I assume with lime.


I also tried to correlate the lacto-fermentation/digestion of wheat straw for example to natural digestion of grasses through cows and horses. It seems obvious that fungi  benefit greatly from partially digested organic matter.

My theory with  a straw or wood-chip substrate is quite similar.  hydrate/pasteurize your substrate and anaerobically digest the media before heating again to stop the bacterial digestion, and buffering the PH to make it hospitable for fungi.

I plan to build a 55gal plastic drum pasteurization / fermentation vessel, with a 120v water heating element and water pump. Separated with a fine mesh screen 6-12inches off the bottom of the vessel. The heating element would be controlled with a thermocouple to control the pasteurization temp and the water pump circulating the water to eliminate hot spots, much like a sous vide system in a kitchen.

I've begun fermenting my grain with EM-1  Lactobacillales (Effective Microbe) available as a bokashi stater. I had two left over 1qt jars with Autoclavable synthetic filter disks left after I sterilized a full batch of spawn and decided to top the rehydrated (in boiling water so most likely pasteurized) unsterilized grain with water and inoculated them with liquid EM-1 Lactobacillales.

Ive observed the grain over the course of a few weeks. First just a few bubbles around the grain and I could smell a pleasant sweet smell very reminiscent of yogurt. After 2-3 weeks the bottom of the jars are a white mush and it's obvious the grain has been broken down significantly and would be of no use as spawn since the grains couldn't be separated and would not hold up  as individual inoculation points.

I apologize for any grammatical errors i typed this up on mobile.

I would like to keep the discussion to advancing the topic. I don't want to fill the feed with "cool idea bro"s  and "this is bullshit"s


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OfflineObsidian
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: MycoLife]
    #24775551 - 11/11/17 11:50 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quite amazing - I just filled a mason jar with grass cuttings in order to make silage (which is basically a Lactobacilli-fermented grass). I want to use it as material for bulk substrate, but I only plan to pasteurize or nothing at all. I believe Lactobacilli and mycelium tolerate each other quite well, and the presence of beneficial bacteria might actually prevent contaminants from taking over the mix, especially molds because they love lower ph. I know they use fermented straw for growing oyster mushrooms.

My tek is like this - I picked a bunch of grass. Washed it, cut it into smaller pieces. Then filled it into mason jar (I used the one that had home made kimchi inside of it before and just rinsed it, hoping it would speed up the process) and put some water just to cover all the grass. Punched a hole on the lid to prevent the accumulation of gases as I do when I ferment other stuff (kimchi, sauerkraut).

Once it is fermented I plan to mix some spawn inside to see if it will grow without any treatment. I suspect it might, beneficial bacteria are a powerful ally both for us and for fungus.


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OfflineSpindlymass
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: Obsidian]
    #24776605 - 11/11/17 09:24 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I'm amazed at the collective knowledge. Thanks for sharing.

My wife is into lacto-fermentaion and other preserving techniques. i'll be  :takingnotes:


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Offlinekrypto2000
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: Obsidian]
    #24781002 - 11/13/17 07:59 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Obsidian said:
Quite amazing - I just filled a mason jar with grass cuttings in order to make silage (which is basically a Lactobacilli-fermented grass). I want to use it as material for bulk substrate, but I only plan to pasteurize or nothing at all. I believe Lactobacilli and mycelium tolerate each other quite well, and the presence of beneficial bacteria might actually prevent contaminants from taking over the mix, especially molds because they love lower ph. I know they use fermented straw for growing oyster mushrooms.

My tek is like this - I picked a bunch of grass. Washed it, cut it into smaller pieces. Then filled it into mason jar (I used the one that had home made kimchi inside of it before and just rinsed it, hoping it would speed up the process) and put some water just to cover all the grass. Punched a hole on the lid to prevent the accumulation of gases as I do when I ferment other stuff (kimchi, sauerkraut).

Once it is fermented I plan to mix some spawn inside to see if it will grow without any treatment. I suspect it might, beneficial bacteria are a powerful ally both for us and for fungus.




Why would that not just grow a bunch of contaminants, are you innoculating it with something to out compete them? If you leave grass clipping out wet it will quickly be covered in a white fungus, if it's anaerobic it will go bacterial. I don't see lactobacilli just happily colonizing it and fighting off everything else especially if not inoculated with a large healthy culture to out compete them.


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OfflineSpindlymass
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: MycoLife]
    #24786675 - 11/16/17 11:14 AM (3 years, 5 months ago)

Without a starter culture of some kind it would be very much luck of the draw. I think a rinsed kimchi jar would be a very weak starter leaving too much to chance.

Also, making sillage is an anaerobic process. If you expose it to too much air, mold city.

It used to be made with whatever microorganisms were present on the grass, alfalfa etc. Now people are innoculating their sillage piles with lactobacillus.


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InvisiblebodhisattaM
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: Spindlymass]
    #24786836 - 11/16/17 12:25 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

You can get homofermentative and heterofermentative species of L.bacillus. homos dont produce co2 as a byproduct of lactic acid production.

You can do a mixed culture and products can be acetic and lactic acid for a tastier sour product.

There's a wealth of interesting info from the sour beer brewers.
http://www.milkthefunk.com/wiki/Main_Page


Propagation of l.bacillus has to be anaerobic. You can get a co2 bottle pretty cheap at a local gas store.


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OfflineSpindlymass
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24786849 - 11/16/17 12:35 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

holy smokes, I've just got myself another winter project! I was going for an unfiltered wheat ale. Not anymore!

Thanks Bod, as I've come to realize time and again, you've chosen a good moniker for yourself.


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OfflineWi2ard
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Registered: 11/20/17
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: Spindlymass]
    #24802628 - 11/23/17 07:04 PM (3 years, 5 months ago)

I know Stamets started doing woodchips somewhat like this. Soaking them for a week or 2 and would get anaerobic growth on them, then expose them to air and sunlight for a kill off much of the growth present. Think this was more for woodchip beds and not bags?


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InvisibleKaptainKermit
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: Wi2ard]
    #24843027 - 12/13/17 12:31 AM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Makes sense in theory because fermenting foods breaks them down and increases bioavailability for your gut, should do the same for mycelium. Would you anticipate quicker colonization? Makes me wonder what would happen if you didn't pasteurize the substrate after lactobaccilli inoculation and simply introduced spawn a few days later, if you went from an anaerobic environment to a more oxygen rich environment when you mixed in the spawn I would think it would slow down the fermentation anyways


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Offlineleschampignons
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Re: Lacto-fermentation of spawn and substrate. [Re: KaptainKermit]
    #24844201 - 12/13/17 05:55 PM (3 years, 4 months ago)

Fascinating thread. :threadmonitor:


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