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Shop: Kraken Kratom Red Vein Kratom   Unfolding Nature Unfolding Nature: Being in the Implicate Order

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OfflinePlurlife
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What are we controlling exactly? * 1
    #24751254 - 11/01/17 05:27 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

So bear with me on this but...
I've been thinking lately about the stretch of awareness/consciousness what have you that personality rests on. There is a clear tail end that marks the beginning of the next iteration of self which feels seamless as if fixated on a single point much like a treadmill. It's clearly not a fixed point as the next thought we will have is different from the previous (clearly but it helps paint the picture when thinking about it this way) and is hardly predictable, however much we feel as though we are in control. During meditation, I've noticed that this next iteration of self is completely inevitable and cannot be decided consciously only steered peripherally which is counterintuitive to what normal waking conscious states would lead one to believe. My question is, to those who are with me, what is it exactly that we are steering "peripherally"? Sure one way of thinking about it is that we don't choose our thoughts but rather our reactions to the reaction of the previous thought but that isn't exactly it.

Let's say a thought arises and a response occurs (attention increases/decreases, emotional response) to which the response is a physiological one (activity is engaged in/disengaged, resistance/surrender to embodied emotion) the response to which is another thought and iteration of self in the direction of the physical response. But what is ACTUALLY being controlled here?


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: Plurlife] * 1
    #24751373 - 11/01/17 08:26 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Plurlife said:
So bear with me on this but...
I've been thinking lately about the stretch of awareness/consciousness what have you that personality rests on.



I see conscious awareness (nama) as a process in the personality mechanism (which accrues and awakens associative memory abstracted from the world - rupa)... putting personality more into rupa, and consciousnness more into nama, but there is no nama without rupa.

the event is inseparable from the matter that sustains it.
Quote:

Plurlife said:
...During meditation, I've noticed that this next iteration of self is completely inevitable and cannot be decided consciously only steered peripherally which is counterintuitive to what normal waking conscious states would lead one to believe....



true except the term  peripherally is not exact.
steering has to do with asynchronous(*) habit cultivation - which is the work done using the function of associative memory, aka "attachment" which is the deep secret in buddhism: usually attachment is held up as a villain, but it is the single essential building block of memory, and it is also the linkage mechanism which brings up the next thought from what is currently fading in consciousness.

(*) the asynchronous part is your internal list of what should I do next, if you do not have one you have to get one and work it. that is the essence of cultivation.


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OfflineKickleM
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: Plurlife]
    #24751731 - 11/01/17 11:58 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Hum, I like the simplicity of the heart sutra here: "emptiness is form and form is emptiness"
one cannot look at a form, thought or otherwise, and expect to pin it down IME

I think red is honing right in on that with interaction, patterns, habituation
i tend to see my sense of self forms largely around interaction, repeating patterns, and habituation

and my attempts to control self are attempts to shift those interactions, patterns, and habits
to experience new movements that are closer to idealized movements

maybe some day just new movements will be enough :shrug:


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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: Plurlife] * 1
    #24755019 - 11/02/17 06:51 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

one way to consider the issue is to separate awareness from the contents of awareness
for purposes of discussion;

thoughts about awareness are not awareness
but awareness of thought is awareness

thoughts are content
awareness is context

all perceptions are content
thoughts are only another form of content
like sensations, emotions, and memories

what we can to some degree control/observe is how open awareness is, moment to moment
are we identified with a perception? caught up in thought?
or are we somewhat aware of awareness, and how it is changing ... etc.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: laughingdog]
    #24755067 - 11/02/17 07:24 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I am happy to see all the mental forms that you are grouping as mental content.

the matter of awareness not being content (i.e. the idea of it is content but awareness itself is other than content) seems reasonable.

a third element is state of mind, which I usually equate with how resonant the mind process is, i.e. how long content persists before fading (trails etc.... all the way to hypnogogic entities as artifacts of persisting mental content.)

the second item awareness may equate nicely with  consciousness itself, i.e. the stream of consciousness through which mental forms resonate in the mental process.
I mention this because the use of the term awareness coincides strongly with what we are conscious of, how the consciousness shifts, as well as states of mind, and the lack of awareness as consciousness dissipates to somnabulism and amnesia.

I can live with the term awareness as equal to consciousness for discussion purposes, and I think it helps to have it simplified that way, pursuant to ironing out the wrinkles in the "math" and "pseudo-math" that attends ideas of consciousness, as well as awareness, and helping to clarify the domains of mental content, mental process (consciousness/awareness) and mental state (persistent resonance of content).

That being established, what we are aware of at any one moment relates a lot to what we are already engaged in, events in our surrounding environment, and our predispositions (which are the linkages or associations that are part of mental contents). And this ties back to the thread issue, i.e. control, or control of awareness, which is somewhat adrift in the ocean of what is happening and what we are doing, and what we have practiced to value in importance or interest (linkages, or associations).


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: Plurlife]
    #24755211 - 11/02/17 08:22 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Maybe it's that we can decide to not become attached to thoughts and reactions.

As laughingdog called it, "identifying" with them . . . identification = attachment


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: RJ Tubs 202]
    #24755304 - 11/02/17 08:55 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

RJ Tubs 202 said:
Maybe it's that we can decide to not become attached to thoughts and reactions.

As laughingdog called it, "identifying" with them . . . identification = attachment



that is the usual view of attachment, but it is incorrect
all mental forms already have linkages and these associations are the essence of attachment
there is no mechanism to choose to be less identified or less attached, but there is an opportunity to cultivate beneficial associations and become more serene and less reactive to non-beneficial associations.


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Offlinedeep_thinker
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: redgreenvines] * 1
    #24755384 - 11/02/17 09:20 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

You shouldn't be controlling anything.

Through self enquiry you learn that you are as much your thoughts as you are your breathing. Do you control your breathing, consciously, even when asleep?

You are not your thoughts. Thoughts arise from Self and if observed they go back to Self.

Thoughts definetly do not need to turn into emotions or actions if you are well versed in self enquiry.

The goal is to baske in the silence between thoughts. This is known as the Self and the void and this is who you truly are, beyond the mind.

A good way of getting there:
https://www.doyouyoga.com/meditation-for-self-inquiry-70712/


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: deep_thinker]
    #24756313 - 11/03/17 08:46 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

I imagine (see (mentally) awareness and like osomething outside of the mental content, of which vision is a part (even idea), something that is expanding or has expandiedness as a charestiristica like a paitning where the idea is a thought tangent, with friction and having sex-like quality/charectiristica
it is cultivated in meditation and one rids oneself of negative (in relation to the garden (probably postivie inherently (nature (plant))) mental content, which disturbs and hinders (the positivity) of your livelihood


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maybe just meaning as much to it as possible
and anti-meaning as little to it as possible


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #24756941 - 11/03/17 02:40 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

can you put the separate ideas on separate lines without parentheses, I don't follow the way that is written.
pretend I am a little child and explain it.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24757042 - 11/03/17 03:33 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

thinking
have been thinking of it for a minute now
more organized
it is geometry
it is triangles and the compbination is more complicated and philosphically it translates to harming as if something is lying in the room that bothers you! it is as if you are attacked compared to having meditated . the triangles are without harm and not complicated and nicer and more organized. you can do it
do you cry every time I say that you are or every time I say that everytrhing is as it is. the triangly is up left, the triangle is moved to the right, so that it only goes up. in this way taking care of it is like not crying when I tell you that you are (you lose yourself by crying then, and you loose footing, you don't go to school, you don't get any cake) and not crying when I say everything is as it is. I hope that is good enough, maybe I could explain it better. let's do it rgv


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maybe just meaning as much to it as possible
and anti-meaning as little to it as possible


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #24757180 - 11/03/17 04:42 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

so
geometry, shapes and color, and
emotion, crying, in response to or along with the triangles.
this is more complicated than the beginning middle end breathing meditation, but if you sit with it calmly it will be good work.
I would not attempt much interpretation at this stage.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24759102 - 11/04/17 01:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

it's like the earth and sky are friends and they need you and they don't want to be with each other without you higher in the air


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maybe just meaning as much to it as possible
and anti-meaning as little to it as possible


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #24759167 - 11/04/17 02:12 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

perhaps as if, but that poetic view is not related to what I was talking about, maybe you need  a poetry thread.
In this thread here we are thrashing with words, trying to be as precise as possible to each other.

poetry is not about that:
poetry is more about having a dance partner who is willing to touch no matter where you've been.
and while dancing it is far more important to smile than to have any reasonable thought except to exalt in creation, the light and the sky.


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InvisibleFerdinando
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24761089 - 11/05/17 11:45 AM (3 years, 6 months ago)

is it also good if I sit not calmly?


--------------------
maybe just meaning as much to it as possible
and anti-meaning as little to it as possible


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: Ferdinando]
    #24761269 - 11/05/17 12:45 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Ferdinando said:
is it also good if I sit not calmly?



staying with yourself for the sitting session counts for more than the calm you develop.
Not running away is the start.
Being close is the middle.
Here and now and calm is the best.
all 3 are important, so yes, sit even if not calm, just to be with your self.
attention is the opposite of abandonment.


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OfflineRJ Tubs 202
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Re: What are we controlling exactly? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24765081 - 11/06/17 11:29 PM (3 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

redgreenvines said:

attention is the opposite of abandonment.




:thumbup:

We do a lot to abandon ourselves and what's happening in each moment.


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