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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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comparison
    #24699534 - 10/10/17 03:14 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

the mystic is swimming in the same water the psychotic drowns in.


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InvisibleSham87
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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24699541 - 10/10/17 03:18 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

what differentiates a mystic from a psychotic then?


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: comparison [Re: Sham87]
    #24699552 - 10/10/17 03:24 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

gnosis


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InvisibleSham87
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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24699574 - 10/10/17 03:36 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

wouldn't the psychotic have knowledge of the same waters  albeit a bit misdirected? Forgive me if im wrong or asking the wrong questions but I am just interested in your opinion on the difference between the two


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: comparison [Re: Sham87]
    #24699591 - 10/10/17 03:52 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

yes gemni, two side to the coin, there is no difference they are compatible.

i dont think the psychotic is the main character rather the mystic, how does he maintain his swim in a hyper sensitive world, while keeping his sanity?

knowledge, the mystic learned to swim where the psychotic drowned. imo.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24700233 - 10/10/17 08:16 PM (1 month, 30 days ago)

This is a Joseph Campbell quotation. Joe was a big fan of C.G. Jung, and Jung maintained that all conscious experience comes through the Unconscious. He denied the existence of a Superconsciousness and Jung stated (e.g., Preface to The Tibetan Book of the Great Liberation) that a person loses consciousness to the extent that one transcends consciousness. So for Jung, transpersonal experiences involves only the Unconscious. Personally, I concur with Roberto Assagioli’s work, where there is a continuum from Collective to Personal Unconscious through various developmental stages of Consciousness and onto Superconscious conditions. I'm confident that Ken Wilber would agree with me and Assagioli on this.

It follows from this that Jung himself was guilty of Wilber’s “Pre-Trans fallacy,” - the identification of Unconsciousness with Superconsciousness. That is the basis of Campbell’s remark but it is not accurate. R.D Laing made better clarifications when he compared the ravings of a “madman” to “the hierophant of the sacred.” The psychotic is overwhelmed by an unregulated upsurgeance of Unconscious material. This is not the same experience of the mystic who may also be overwhelmed by the “Mysterium Tremendum Et Fascinans,” but this experience does not typically result in the decompendation or psychic disintegration of the psychotic. In other words, the ecstasis of the mystic may look like the ravings of a maniac (someone in the throes of a hypermanic episode, for example) on the surface behaviors, but there are well-defined parameters of religious experience, even from Jung, and before Jung from William James (see The Varieties of Religious Experience, 1901) or James' contemporary R.M. Bucke (see Cosmic Consciousness, 1901) as two classic examples.


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Edited by MarkostheGnostic (10/10/17 08:28 PM)


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: comparison [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24705238 - 10/12/17 07:00 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

"the ecstasis of the mystic may look like the ravings of a maniac" :psychsplit:

Mysterium Tremendum Et Fascinans

we see this a lot more often than we think, and that is the call.

I wonder how often I acted in a prideful or even fearful way that I I lost the essence of what I was meant to see. humility to me is the hardest thing, when the numinous does arrive I've learned to listen and let it speak, otherwise try to hide from it, fight it, lately I been thinking to love it, but then would that be feeding an unnecessary spirit... or another part of myself, but I can't control myself sometimes.

one would say God, or a right standard for life, another a healthy upbringing, and all of those bring a quality of life, yet and still we fuck it up, with choice.

"few are chosen"


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Edited by Green7Alchemist (10/12/17 07:15 PM)


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24706894 - 10/13/17 01:09 PM (1 month, 28 days ago)

“The greatest obstacle to the internal nature is the mind. If it relies on logic, the domain of the inner nature is inaccessible. The simple fact is a man does not challenge the wisdom of the Holy Mystery.”
–Turtleheart, TETON SIOUX


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist] * 1
    #24708499 - 10/14/17 03:23 AM (1 month, 27 days ago)

If one does not cultivate humility then the humiliations of old age, sickness and death will humble one soon enough. It is less of a shock if one cultivates humility. I wonder whether this process carries over into the post-mortem condition in which one might experience æons within seconds, minutes or days. I hope so, because individuals like Trump need to experience an ego-death that is so terrible, that they are reduced from their Luciferian heights of inflation and cast into a Hell Realm for the purification of all existence. I hope the whole mythological meme of Lucifer being cast into Hell is recapitulated in people who cause great fear and suffering for their pleasure and delight. Cosmic Karmic Justice.

I can come up with a basis for pride, but this is bluster and bullshit. There are beings on the planet who can and have donated $1 million to relief in Puerto Rico, for example. I do not know if any of these individuals are personally more compassionate, intelligent, or determined to Awaken than I am, but their financial contributions may help more people at once than I have during a lifetime. I do not think that the mere ability to give more determines personal greatness. One can feel proud about acts of giving. Hell, self-esteem can be based on all manner of negative qualities: the best hit man around, the biggest embezzler, etc. :shrug:


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: comparison [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24717047 - 10/17/17 04:54 PM (1 month, 23 days ago)

theres this notion that we came to earth to learn, not to be perfected.

in the OT the word hell is Sheol, and that word has been interpreted in many ways, pit or grave being an example.

pride is a subtle action, sometimes loud. to be boasting in your accomplishments or are being over competitive with another, it can be an eye roll or a shrug.

and i think we all do/have these small subtleties, a person can be an angel in disguise testing us, we may not know it.

coming in contact with numinous then becomes every encounter, i wonder how many times i acted in a prideful manner... 

we are stressed and it drives us insane, of course then we get caught in the thespian game of ME.

we walk around with our heads up our asses justifying and prioritizing our own problems over others, we dont know who is standing in front of us, so then you are encountered with a choice, smile and try to be there or to keep walking.


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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist] * 1
    #24718553 - 10/18/17 04:10 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

I used to entertain the thought that a silent Carthusian monk walled up in his cell was the only way one could be completely humble and still be alive. To what end? Perfection? Jesus and Buddha interacted with other human beings. Becoming non-existent was not perfection then. Here to learn? We all have to learn, but you're suggesting some metaphysical instruction. That too. I still haven't gotten into the new translation of the Tibetan Book of the Dead sitting on my desk. Do I really need to know this? How about the Egyptian Book of the Dead? Do I really have to learn to be lucid not only in my dreams but in deep sleep too in order to enter into the Clear Light at death? My first girlfriend and I once slept after taking an amphetamine and we both had the experience of being a silent witness to our young snoring selves. She asked, "Did we sleep?" Were we lucid? Was it the same as Dream and Sleep Yoga?

So many questions. I have learned about these things, but have not learned to master any of them. During waking I can be kind, helpful. Sometimes it's for free like helping neighbors put up hurricane shutters before a storm or charging everyone's cell phones and devices off my generator. Sometimes I charge for my time during which I employ my therapeutic skills. Sometimes I'm selfish like not assuming financial responsibility for a cousin who lives below the poverty level because she never tried to better herself, refuses to work, and lives in a crumbling house. I have generosity and I have selfishness. "Do I contradict myself? Very well, then I contradict myself, I am large, I contain multitudes." - Walt Whitman


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: comparison [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24718963 - 10/18/17 11:20 AM (1 month, 23 days ago)

no i dont think perfection is real, sometimes i sit and wonder on the character of God from what ive picked up and from what my own instincts tell me, i keep coming back to myself as the evolved model for what i believe God is, i am many things, people seem to believe that they can only be one thing, when really we are quite versatile, so maybe that monk walled up in a cell is actually the most imperfect of us because he has shunned lifes experience, but then again perhaps that is his personal perfection, whose to say.

we learn to be upright homo sapiens-sapiens, when we look back at our oldest society recorded, Sumerians, we see this, man learning culture, learning conduct, from the Gods, and so did most other cultures, there is a way to act that is pleasing to yourself and to others.

yea, i do think its a metaphysical/ moral question thats asked when we see a man who is at the edge of sanity, you have to wonder what that man is missing in his heart of hearts, he needs to read those books, he needs to listen to lectures because he needs to know how to conduct himself in the presence of the numinous, and again, the numinous can be anyone or anything, but would that stop anyone from road raging.. hmmm...


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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24720203 - 10/18/17 08:02 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

For many years I was under the impression that perfection was akin to the example of Neem Karolie Baba, the Guru in BE HERE NOW, going about in Sat Chit Ananda. In fact, that book somewhat uncritically identified every spiritual avatar with such a state so that there is that page where Jesus is being crucified and is looking at his executioners with total compassion and understanding at the illusions they are trapped in. So there was this identification of the Jewish Jesus living in a perpetually ecstatic space, although a Roman flogging with a flagrum (dumbbell-tipped, not the barbed variety in Mel Gibson's death-porn film), followed by large spikes being hammered through the feet and wrists would bring any human consciousness down into the body, the lower chakras opening and eventually discharging feces and urine involuntarily as the death process ensued.

I later read Abraham Joshua Heschel's books The Prophets, and his evaluation of the Jewish prophets (of which Jesus is included from Islam's perspective) was that they were not living in ekstasis, neither would any Jew entertain God-mysticism or union with God. Communion with the deity is a different matter although the very word communion is so laden with Christian meaning that another word needs to be used. Moses, the archetype of prophets, spoke with God and God with him. Moses is considered to be the arch-prophet among all the prophets in Judaism and yet, he disobeyed God in a seemingly small thing. Asked to point his staff at a rock to cause water to flow from it, he struck the rock in Numbers 20:11 when God had commanded him to point. For that degree of disobedience, Moses was not allowed to live long enough to enter the Promised Land. The exiled Israelites were lead by Joshua (whose Hebrew name would've been Y'shua, the same Hebrew name for Iesous/isa in Greek/Aramaic). But I digress.

Perfection is a Christian idiom is characterized by the faith of Abrahams plus the love of Jesus, both operating in the Christian. While Christians and Muslims both honor self-sacrifice, Muslims deny that a prophet of God would suffer the humiliation of a torture-death, being 'hung on a tree.' Christian theology makes the torture-death the replacement for the temple sacrifices of Temple Judaism. Martyrdom, admired in the Tenach (OT) like the 7 sons who are horribly tortured in 2 Maccabees 7, and then their mother is killed, all for not denouncing their faith, is carried forward as the form of spiritual perfection in the New Testament. Hence the Christian martyrs who sang hymns with their children as they walked to the coliseum to be fed to lions or covered with pitch to be burned alive to illuminate the games. :eek: :sad: :mad2:

Is THIS what a benevolent, loving deity asks of his/her human creatures? Are these horrors the hallmark of spiritual perfection? I remain incredulous and opposed. I think the Gnostics who took seriously Jesus' kingdom as being 'not of this world,' and who cooperated with the culture by making meaningless sacrifices to Pagan gods thereby preserving their lives made the wiser decision. I do not think the willingness for one's children to be tortured to death with oneself is courageous. Such acts were political, manifesting defiance against the oppressor's government including the false divinity of the emperors. These acts of martyrdom were sadistic to one's children, beyond any physical abuse imaginable as well as masochistic for the adults, perhaps taking secret satisfaction in their defiance, but at what price? Some Jewish concentration camp prisoners threw themselves into bonfires (as documentary films illustrate) rather than handle the dead unceremoniously. Perhaps suicide was intended, but that too is forbidden in Judaism so again there was a horrible way of defying one's political oppressors.

I am not lauding cowardice as a virtue, but I am questioning what actually constitutes courage. Risking one's life to save another is courage. Intentionally dying, often in unimaginable agony, for deity (like an Islamic suicide-bomber) is madness not courage. Yet martyrdom is still considered to be indicative of spiritual perfection, even among US military fighting for corporate oil concerns while brainwashed into thinking it is for patriotic purposes, America's freedom that they are maimed, crippled or killed. :sad: Christian Scientists who allow their children to die rather than be treated medically embody another false sense of perfection. Those Vietnamese Buddhist monks who immolated themselves to protest South Vietnam's governmental policies is another iteration of martyrdom that defies the Buddhist's Noble Truths about the alleviation of suffering. Their acts did nothing to stem the tide of war, and it is decidedly not Buddhist teaching.

The aspiration to perfection has been perverted at every turn it would seem. Personally, the minimization and alleviation of suffering of self and others seems to be the right direction, as is the maximization of a joyful life, until suffering significantly outweighs the joy, and the maximization of awareness are the hallmarks of perfection. Perhaps Methuselah should become my spiritual avatar. :yesnod:


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OfflineEarthsweeties
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Re: comparison [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24721541 - 10/19/17 12:11 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

Did you see the movie Silence last year Markos, about the Portuguese missionaries in Japan?  It deals with this theme quite powerfully I thought.


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InvisibleGreen7Alchemist
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Re: comparison [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24721724 - 10/19/17 01:29 PM (1 month, 22 days ago)

man,, dude i wrote this post twice already haha, sacrifice is a big one for me, my African side does a lot of santeria and i was born on a special day so since a child i have been part of rituals, however my Native American side shows me compassion for all living things and any sacrifice should not go to waste, in fact the Aztec empire fell because of human sacrifice anybody in there will tell you they did unsavory things.

as a young man i picked up the bible and fell in love with the character of Yahshua, compassionate, wise, powerful, humble, he was even a bit of a smart ass which appealed to me, but he talks about self sacrifice, dying to ourselves our flesh bodies because we are not the vessel we walk around in but we are the essence within, i thought that that understanding was extremely powerful and still is, i think Ghandi is a perfect example of this, regardless of what one may think of his credibility.

so with that said i respect my tradition and praise my ancestors but ive ex communicated myself from all that mess, and instead of making a dam rooster die for me i decided i was going to die for myself, the book of Daniel, one of my favorite books, hes stuck in Babylon but he was a smart man and helped the king with his issues, Daniel goes on a 21 day fast, he died to himself and his worldly desires and in doing so he came in contact with the numinous and an angel appears to him and gives him visions, my elder has a saying, the more material decreases the more spirit increases and vice versa, thats why people in 3rd world countries who seemingly have nothing compared to us are smiling while we feel horrible, but only spirit can be able to make this distinction because spirit is not attached to material rather material is attached to spirit, this body will decompose but your essence is ever-living.

also in the bible we see that the prophets didnt go into battle and died as martyrs, i think the bible makes that very clear we are are not fighting against flesh and bone, those people that purposefully go into battle in the name of allah or w.e are not martyrs they are soldiers. we see prophets dying for speaking the word of God, prophet Isiah i.e, but then again one has to look outside of religion into history to understand Islam and later what is known as the bible to really understanding what the Quran and the NT is saying and where they come from. these were waring tribes that united under Islam, and a falling apart Roman empire that implemented NT as a way to unite the country, nothing more nor less.

maybe you can help me here, i always saw a huge correlation with how the Hebrew bible and the Christian bible both block out the name of God, in the OT we see his real name, the "tetragrammaton", was omitted several times, my thoughts is that so was Yahshuas name, i dont think Yahshua translates to Joshua, i think that translation is Yahoshua while Jesus translates to the greek, hence Yahshua has no english translation, occultist in the middle ages coined the term pentagrammaton and assigned him 5 letter. people are worshiping a false deity? in the beginning of my understanding that did not stop me from feeling a true since of redemption. what do you think?


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Re: comparison [Re: Earthsweeties]
    #24722073 - 10/19/17 03:46 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

Quote:

Earthsweeties said:
Did you see the movie Silence last year Markos, about the Portuguese missionaries in Japan?  It deals with this theme quite powerfully I thought.




No, but I'll check it out, thanks! :cheers:


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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24722128 - 10/19/17 04:05 PM (1 month, 21 days ago)

I think Iesous is Y'shua/Joshua/Isa/Iesous and that there is nothing occult about it. I do not Know if there was a historical Iesous (Albert Schweitzer came to the conclusion that Iesous was a composite character of wisdom teachers in his book The Quest for the Historical Jesus), but if there was and he was not a literary creation made of many prophesies in the Tenach, utilized to unite the Roman Empire under a single messianic figure, then that man was highly mythologized in the documents. I do not deny the possibility of numerous synchronicities occurring around a holy man (Paul included), but suspensions of physical law involving walking on water, bilocation (the 'upper room' in Mark where Iesous 'appears' within a locked space, while also in a tomb), multiplication of fishes and loaves thereby creating matter out of mind, are all highly mythologized miracles. The resurrection body rising into the air makes no sense unless the word pneuma which means air and spirit is interpreted as spirit. The ancient conflation of Heaven and the celestial heavens means that Iesous is out there in space past Pluto, taken literally. Resurrection as a spiritual 'movement' makes a lot more sense in the history of religious thought. I am not a literalist, but there is nothing written by Iesous and next to no extra-biblical reference except second hand passing brief references by historians like Josephus and Suetonius.

Jews write G-d in English. Adonai (Lord) is used instead of the transliterated Tetragrammaton YHVH out of reverence for the Divine Name, which only Moses and Aaron were said to have uttered in the Holy-of-Holies on certain days, when the Shekinah manifested about the gold Mercy Seat on the Ark of the Covenant (also, highly mythologized I presume, although I like what Steven Spielberg did with it in Raiders of the Lost Ark).


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Re: comparison [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24731072 - 10/23/17 10:46 AM (1 month, 18 days ago)

i like to think Christ as a person existed, because we are all children of God. i think the first NT scroll was found somewhere within the 2 century, written mostly in Greek almost 200 years after Christ died, correct me here if im wrong but that is around the same time Constantine became emperor.

any name ending in US i.e Julius, Tiberius, Augustus, Iesous, Jesus, is referencing Zeus, the main deity in Greece and in Rome, very matter of fact but true non the less, i dont think this is a matter of opinion but a matter of suppression as the"jews" did with the name of the Most High, not out of reverence because the name is in the book and it has been omitted to say another name, but because they wish to retain the truth.

they wish for you to go thru a middle man in order to reach the source, yet what few have figured is we are being filtered thru this flesh, we have been sent here to the 3D from the source to return back to the source once we have made our observations.


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OfflineThreads from God89
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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24732167 - 10/23/17 07:20 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

Our Horse barn was named "Shekinah."  The Glory of God Remains or something like that I believe it means.


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Re: comparison [Re: Green7Alchemist]
    #24732617 - 10/23/17 09:53 PM (1 month, 17 days ago)

The New Testament material was not a single scroll but a collection of documents written in Koiné Greek, with no capitalization or punctuation or even titles. Interpretations vary from this alone, but the gospel designated Mark was the earliest of the four gospels retained for the canonical Bible, written about 70 CE. Matthew and Luke were 10-20 years older. John's gospel has now been dated along with Matthew and Luke, but when I was in seminary it was surmised to have been written from 90-120 CE. John's gospel is qualitatively different than the Synoptics (same view) Mark, Matthew, Luke in that for them, Jesus was 'a man anointed [Christed, as by chrism, oil] by God' while for John, Jesus was 'God clothed with flesh.' This theology has dominated Christianity but the Synoptic gospels retain more of the Jewish flavor of Jesus. John is decidedly Hellenistic since in classical Greek thought God [Greek: Zeus, Latin: Deus] created a number of God-men [demigods] like Heracles and Dionysus.

There is no letter 'J' in Hebrew or in Greek. Iesous would be the closest English transliteration of the Greek (like Jocasta is Iocasta as the mother of Oedipus), and Y'shua from which English gets Joshua as I have said before. I cannot speak to the -us suffix, but Zeus becomes Deus in Latin, and as for the personification as the king of the pantheon, Zeus became Jupiter. Indeed, the Greek pantheon of major gods assumed our planetary names. The Roman names of emperors are Latin, not Hebrew. The subject of Divine Names was and is sensitive theologically among Orthodox Jews because the Name ['Ha Shem'] is, as in the case of much magick, identical with the Deity. The creative essence of God is the Word, and this becomes transferred to Christianity through John's gospel's 'Prologue,' or 'pro-logos.' Thus, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God and the Word was God..." The English rendering of 'Logos' into word is unfortunate because the Logos is "the Word" in the original Greek and the author John more than likely borrowed the concept from the Hellenistic Jewish philosopher Philo of Alexandria who lived contemporaneously with Jesus.

Philo's works survive (I was reading some of his stuff just yesterday), and he wrote a great deal on the Logos, which is manifested God as opposed to the absolutely unknown Unmanifested Godhead, or "the Father" in Christianity. Various theologies developed in Christianity, and most were condemned as heretical, especially those theologies (like Arius) who made the Logos subordinate to God - a second God or as they say in Kabbalah, "the Lesser Countenance." Christianity had Father and Son for a couple hundred years until Tertullian (later condemned as a Montanist) used the word "trinity." It was really Augustine of Hippo who developed trinitarian thought for the Catholic Church, and thus the beginning of Divine Names in Christianity. But, with obvious Pagan elements in the RC Church, graven images of Madonnas, Jesus, saints, etc., there was similarly no uber-reverence for unspeakable Divine Names as in Judaism.

Augustine developed the heinous notion of Original Sin, so your idea of being "filtered thru this flesh" is inimical and heretical from his perspective. It was the identification with the flesh and as separate bodies which is part of the fall from grace. Of course the whole Garden of Eden thing is mythology, and from a Jungian analytical perspective it is psychology - the gradual birth of self-consciousness from the matrix of the unconscious, the "Great Round," of which the garden is a symbol, as well as a symbol of the maternal womb. Our banishment a metaphorical birth, severance, and the beginning of the process of Individuation of which Jesus becomes the paradigm for a fully Individuated human being (with the ego-Self axis being described mythically as Jesus and the Father as these two poles). If interested, see Edward Edinger's Ego and Archetype (try to buy an older paper version with color plates).


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γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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