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Offlinephi1618
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Registered: 02/14/04
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Re: Protests against occupation? [Re: Phred]
    #2463549 - 03/23/04 12:22 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Of course my "indication" ignores the role of the UN, theoretical or otherwise. Why shouldn't it?

You shouldn't because the US involvement in Iraq was initially a matter of enforcing an UN resolution and assisting the UN in assisting Kuait to repel invaders. Additionally, the more recent war was, to a degree, a matter of the US enforcing UN resolutions in Iraq.

I agree that the UN is far from perfect, but you can't ignore the fact that it was intimately involved in these preceedings from the begining, that it has a charter which forms part of international law and regulates member states, and that the US violated that charter by attacking Iraq last year without authorization from the UN security council.
This charter is part of international law. By violating the charter the US violated international law.
What's so hard to understand?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Protests against occupation? [Re: phi1618]
    #2463608 - 03/23/04 12:50 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

phi1618 writes:

You shouldn't because the US involvement in Iraq was initially a matter of enforcing an UN resolution and assisting the UN in assisting Kuait to repel invaders.

No, the US was acting (along with several other nations) as an ally of Kuwait. The US would have assisted Kuwait whether the UN had made any resolutions condemning Iraq's actions or not.

.... and that the US violated that charter by attacking Iraq last year without authorization from the UN security council.

Have you read Resolution 1441?

This charter is part of international law. By violating the charter the US violated international law.

"International law"? There is no international law. There are various treaties, conventions, agreements, and accords -- none of which are binding upon anyone other than the signatory nations, and often (in practice) not even then.

What the UN has to say about this is entirely beside the point, so when I note that the UN has passed no resolution condemning the US for finishing what should have been finished back in 1991 I do so as an aside rather than to make any particular point.

pinky


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Offlinephi1618
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Re: Protests against occupation? [Re: Phred]
    #2463703 - 03/23/04 01:29 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

pinksharkmark:

Have you read Resolution 1441?

Does 1441 authorize anybody in the use of force? It threatens "serious consequences", and offers that the Security Council will "remain siezed of the matter", but compare that to the text of 678:

The Security Council... 2. Authorizes Member States co-operating with the Government of Kuwait, unless Iraq on or before 15 January 1991 fully implements, as set forth in paragraph 1 above, the foregoing resolutions, to use all necessary means to uphold and implement resolution 660 (1990) and all subsequent relevant resolutions and to restore international peace and security in the area;

Without the specificity of the above paragraph, any claim that the recent war in Iraq was legitamized by the UN security council under resolution 1441 is disingenuous.


International law"? There is no international law. There are various treaties, conventions, agreements, and accords -- none of which are binding upon anyone other than the signatory nations, and often (in practice) not even then.

See: http://www.un.org/law/
Or, if you don't like the UN, how about Nurenberg:
http://www.nuclearfiles.org/etinternationallaw/nuremberg.htm
Or the Geneva conventions?
These may qualify as "various treaties, conventions, agreements, and accords", but they are presumed to be binding on all nations.


As I see it, our disagreement can be broken down into at least three components:
Did the US violate the UN charter?
If so:
How does it matter to the UN?
How does it matter to the US?

On the first point, I have made my own argument, which is unaffected by 1441, and Kofi Anann made a statment supporting my position prior to the attack. See: http://www.cnn.com/2003/WORLD/meast/03/11/sprj.irq.un/

On the second, it hurts the credibility of the UN as a real force in regulating and preventing international conflict, which was the core reason it was formed. From the very begining of the preamble of the UN charter:
http://www.un.org/aboutun/charter/
"WE THE PEOPLES OF THE UNITED NATIONS DETERMINED
to save succeeding generations from the scourge of war, which twice in our lifetime has brought untold sorrow to mankind..."
However, as the above article notes, only 3 (Korea, 1991 Iraq, and Afghanistan) of 26 wars involving member nations of the UN were authorized by the Security Council, and in all three, the US sought UN backing for a military operation it led.

On the third, the only effect is on "world opinion". Clearly, no resolution censuring the US can ever be passed, and there is no military force to directly threaten the US. The only damage done to the US is done to its relations with other countries, and its overwhelming economic and military importance minimizes the significance of any change.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: Protests against occupation? [Re: Siphersh]
    #2466495 - 03/24/04 04:37 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

What sense would it make, to protest against the actions of another country or terrorist group than the own? Do you think, the North-Korean leadership will say: "oooh, the American hippies are protesting against our ways, let's do something, quick, quick!"?




Allow me to paraphrase....
What sense would it make, to protest against the actions of another country or terrorist group than the own? Do you think, the American leadership will say: "oooh, the worlds hippies and peaceniks are protesting against our ways, let's do something, quick, quick!"?


Why oh why didn't people protest the Coalition going into Iraq? Oh.... wait.....


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineSiphersh
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Registered: 10/12/01
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Re: Protests against occupation? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2466623 - 03/24/04 06:59 AM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Good point.

Do you think that protests in foreign countries don't have any influence on the actions of the US government? I always felt that a so-called "democratic" country should not abuse its power to act as the government of the whole world, based on the consent of its own people.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Registered: 11/29/01
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Re: Protests against occupation? [Re: Siphersh]
    #2467971 - 03/24/04 03:59 PM (16 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Do you think that protests in foreign countries don't have any influence on the actions of the US government?



Little if any.


Quote:

I always felt that a so-called "democratic" country should not abuse its power to act as the government of the whole world, based on the consent of its own people.



Why just a democratic country?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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