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 Josex
#cheat_code
Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,996
Loc: 
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 Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn  [Re: Boogieman47]
#24686807 - 10/05/17 07:45 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boogieman47 said:
i under hydrate and load a little wet and the wheat looks so much better ..
This is also what I do. I like to prep wheat using SpitballJedi's "quick rye prep" with some modifications. This method does not include a boil, which is the reason I use it, since I seem to get lots of burst wheat kernels during the boil. All the wheat I have access to is a mix of several varieties, some of them softer than others, although they are all hard wheat. I should find a way to contact a farmer and buy a single variety from him.
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie
Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed 
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: Josex]
#24687035 - 10/05/17 09:35 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have the red winter wheat and i will have some that are softer then others ive boiled and i found boiling for about 25 30 minutes comes out pretty good but ive been to busy to boil .. so i just soak for either 24 hours load wet or 48 hours and dry but they both have ups and downs ..
The jars do just fine no matter how i do it but its when i transfer to bags ill notice if they are too wet or too dry mostly wet but idk im getting frustrated using bags but they are more convientent then jars ..
Id need 400 jars a month haha
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Snazz
Polymath
Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 1,584
Loc: Canada 
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: Boogieman47]
#24687794 - 10/06/17 08:33 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Grain bags are for those with great sterile technique.
If you half ass any part, it's goin in the bin.
Edited to clarify grain
Edited by Snazz (10/06/17 08:57 AM)
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?
Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 10,128
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: Lobi]
#24688067 - 10/06/17 10:48 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lobi said:
Have you seen locn9nes time-lapse of PCd grains go bacterial over the course of several months without being inoculated?
I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove beyond that his sterile and PC technique was solid? When we PC, I'm pretty sure we don't truly sterilize, we just call it that in our hobby. True sterilization would turn grain to mush from what I've heard.
Even after PCing, there are still some endospores left, we just kill enough of them off to allow our mycelium to jump ahead and takeover the sub. Yeah, if you let them sit around forever, eventually the bacteria will takeover.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
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bodhisatta  
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: stareatclouds]
#24688084 - 10/06/17 10:53 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Quote:
Lobi said:
Have you seen locn9nes time-lapse of PCd grains go bacterial over the course of several months without being inoculated?
I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove beyond that his sterile and PC technique was solid? When we PC, I'm pretty sure we don't truly sterilize, we just call it that in our hobby. True sterilization would turn grain to mush from what I've heard.
Even after PCing, there are still some endospores left, we just kill enough of them off to allow our mycelium to jump ahead and takeover the sub. Yeah, if you let them sit around forever, eventually the bacteria will takeover.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Probably closer to the truth than anything else. Liquids are easily sterilized. To odds like 1/10,000,000 chances of a single surviving endospore.
Grains are hard as fuck to sterilize hence cooking quarts of grains 6-8 times longer than a quart of agar.
No one will know for sure until someone buys some endospore strips loads them in the middle of a jar of spawn and then tests the strip for viability
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Josex
#cheat_code
Registered: 11/13/15
Posts: 8,996
Loc:
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: bodhisatta]
#24688423 - 10/06/17 12:47 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
bodhisatta said:
No one will know for sure until someone buys some endospore strips loads them in the middle of a jar of spawn and then tests the strip for viability
That'd be enlightening for sure, get em dude, it was your idea 
Maybe a silly question but, wouldn't the endospores inside the grains be a little harder to kill than the endos on the strips? Idk, maybe they're better protected inside the grains.
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: Josex]
#24688430 - 10/06/17 12:49 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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I don't think the endospores are in the grains so much as on them
Never found much info about it tho
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie
Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: bodhisatta]
#24688458 - 10/06/17 01:04 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: Boogieman47]
#24688468 - 10/06/17 01:08 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Funny enough ive actually seen both of those articles but they really don't say anything about how much endospores grains already have and where they are.
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Boogieman47
Let's boogie
Registered: 03/05/16
Posts: 9,712
Loc: Under your bed
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: bodhisatta]
#24688517 - 10/06/17 01:29 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Well the first one is about the plasma inactivation but just say the grains were artificially contaminated .. the second one just talks about ebdospores period but what would it matter if its in or out of the grain ? Its talkin about how they can withstand a nuclear war haha .. but then ive read somewhere else in the same context that they can be killed in a pc in 30 minutes but it also said not all will be killed ..
I believe making the grains on the wetter side helps aid the growth of bacteria due to the myc not being able to consume the nutes giving the spore time to thrive .. but i have noticed this more often in my oats then the wheat idk why but its true ..
And on the bags i know sometimes my sterile tek fucks the bags up but ill go through 30 bags with great results and then bam mold or some other nasty .. i dont know if i get a little lazy or wjat i know my bags are partly to blame i been usin .5 micron will be getting tje .2 next time they always look great until i shake them .. sometimes ill have to shake twice and they are good through the second shake ..
But i think making the grain in the bags perfect is more important then jars the same batch of grains prepped that i will use in both the jars finish nice where the dont .. and i know its due to more surface to cover but i use one master per bag ..
Also when doing bags i wipe my table with iso before taking bags out of pc, then i wipe my arms and hands, shake and wipe the masters, then get the metal ring off the jars i wipe under the ring, then i will open the bag from the sides of the airflow. I open the lid with 2 fingers and hold the bag as i pour . I dont know what else to do to be more sterile
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Shroomway
It's me!
Registered: 07/05/17
Posts: 438
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: Josex]
#24688524 - 10/06/17 01:33 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Josex said:
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
No one will know for sure until someone buys some endospore strips loads them in the middle of a jar of spawn and then tests the strip for viability
That'd be enlightening for sure, get em dude, it was your idea
Maybe a silly question but, wouldn't the endospores inside the grains be a little harder to kill than the endos on the strips? Idk, maybe they're better protected inside the grains.
That'd be enlightening for sure, get em dude, it was your idea
Lol I liked that one
maybe they're better protected inside the grains
You think they are hiding behind the hulls?
Isn't it just time that is needed to get the mass hot enough for a long enough time in according to the endospore load dealing with? (and some more factors like amount of water present)
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: Boogieman47]
#24688565 - 10/06/17 01:47 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Boogieman47 said:
Well the first one is about the plasma inactivation but just say the grains were artificially contaminated .. the second one just talks about ebdospores period but what would it matter if its in or out of the grain ? Its talkin about how they can withstand a nuclear war haha .. but then ive read somewhere else in the same context that they can be killed in a pc in 30 minutes but it also said not all will be killed ..
I believe making the grains on the wetter side helps aid the growth of bacteria due to the myc not being able to consume the nutes giving the spore time to thrive .. but i have noticed this more often in my oats then the wheat idk why but its true ..
And on the bags i know sometimes my sterile tek fucks the bags up but ill go through 30 bags with great results and then bam mold or some other nasty .. i dont know if i get a little lazy or wjat i know my bags are partly to blame i been usin .5 micron will be getting tje .2 next time they always look great until i shake them .. sometimes ill have to shake twice and they are good through the second shake ..
But i think making the grain in the bags perfect is more important then jars the same batch of grains prepped that i will use in both the jars finish nice where the dont .. and i know its due to more surface to cover but i use one master per bag ..
Also when doing bags i wipe my table with iso before taking bags out of pc, then i wipe my arms and hands, shake and wipe the masters, then get the metal ring off the jars i wipe under the ring, then i will open the bag from the sides of the airflow. I open the lid with 2 fingers and hold the bag as i pour . I dont know what else to do to be more sterile
A spore strip with 10 million endospores on it of the hardest to kill type placed in the middle of a load only takes 15m at 15psi to kill all of them and not only all of them the chance of even one survivor is 1/10,000,000
Thats sterilizing liquids. Grains have pockets of space that trap air so steam cant get there to sterilize
Endospores are extremely easy to kill once sterilization conditions are met
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 potnug
Registered: 07/06/17
Posts: 321
Last seen: 4 years, 9 months
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: bodhisatta]
#24688645 - 10/06/17 02:24 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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bodhisatta
Smurf real estate agent
Registered: 04/30/13
Posts: 61,891
Loc: Milky way
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: potnug] 2
#24688665 - 10/06/17 02:39 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sterility_assurance_level
hospitals have to achieve 10-7 with a strip that was loaded with 107
so thats going
10,000,000
1,000,000 one log reduction
100,000 2
10000 3
1000 4
100 5
10 6
1 7
0.1 8
.01 9
.001 10
.0001 11
.00001 12
.000001 13
.0000001 14
14 total logs of reduction to get to the 10-7 chance of a survival
that means if you autoclave 10,000,000 jars and they started with 10,000,000 endospores you would only have one jar on average contaminate. and that one jar would contaminate from one survivor on that strip.
fortunate for hospitals they don't have to sterilize grain. they can put medical waste requiring sterilization in a autoclave bag and it can be mechanically crushed as to facilitate good sterilization before disposal.
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Lobi
Bushido
Registered: 02/06/16
Posts: 1,231
Loc: PNW
Last seen: 7 months, 14 days
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: bodhisatta]
#24688687 - 10/06/17 02:53 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Quote:
Lobi said:
Have you seen locn9nes time-lapse of PCd grains go bacterial over the course of several months without being inoculated?
I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove beyond that his sterile and PC technique was solid? When we PC, I'm pretty sure we don't truly sterilize, we just call it that in our hobby. True sterilization would turn grain to mush from what I've heard.
Even after PCing, there are still some endospores left, we just kill enough of them off to allow our mycelium to jump ahead and takeover the sub. Yeah, if you let them sit around forever, eventually the bacteria will takeover.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes this is my understanding of it as well. We don't reach true sterilization. That was my point with pooling water or excess water germinating endos. Whether we expose inoculant or ourselves to it, it will go bacterial over time depending on environment/grain/etc
I have had wbs controls stay fine for 6 months. I've had others begin going bacterial after just 1 month. Normally depends on factors I stated earlier. But.. 
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
Boogieman47 said:
Well the first one is about the plasma inactivation but just say the grains were artificially contaminated .. the second one just talks about ebdospores period but what would it matter if its in or out of the grain ? Its talkin about how they can withstand a nuclear war haha .. but then ive read somewhere else in the same context that they can be killed in a pc in 30 minutes but it also said not all will be killed ..
I believe making the grains on the wetter side helps aid the growth of bacteria due to the myc not being able to consume the nutes giving the spore time to thrive .. but i have noticed this more often in my oats then the wheat idk why but its true ..
And on the bags i know sometimes my sterile tek fucks the bags up but ill go through 30 bags with great results and then bam mold or some other nasty .. i dont know if i get a little lazy or wjat i know my bags are partly to blame i been usin .5 micron will be getting tje .2 next time they always look great until i shake them .. sometimes ill have to shake twice and they are good through the second shake ..
But i think making the grain in the bags perfect is more important then jars the same batch of grains prepped that i will use in both the jars finish nice where the dont .. and i know its due to more surface to cover but i use one master per bag ..
Also when doing bags i wipe my table with iso before taking bags out of pc, then i wipe my arms and hands, shake and wipe the masters, then get the metal ring off the jars i wipe under the ring, then i will open the bag from the sides of the airflow. I open the lid with 2 fingers and hold the bag as i pour . I dont know what else to do to be more sterile
A spore strip with 10 million endospores on it of the hardest to kill type placed in the middle of a load only takes 15m at 15psi to kill all of them and not only all of them the chance of even one survivor is 1/10,000,000
Thats sterilizing liquids. Grains have pockets of space that trap air so steam cant get there to sterilize
Endospores are extremely easy to kill once sterilization conditions are met
Boogie that's how I do my bags too. I don't think I'm the one introducing Shit and if I am it'd be mold.. Which I never get until the 3rd flush.
--------------------
The bonds and ties of the life we know break easily. But through eternity one bond remains; the bond of fellowship.
The fellowship of atoms,
of star dust in its endless flight, of suns and worlds, of gods and men.
The clasped hands of comradeship unite in a bond eternal; the fellowship of spirit.  - My High Quality Lo-Fi Beats -- MushroomCultivation Compendium -- Doing Bulk w/ No PC -  more about my music
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Snazz
Polymath
Registered: 11/24/15
Posts: 1,584
Loc: Canada
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: bodhisatta]
#24688689 - 10/06/17 02:53 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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We pretty much just autoclave surgical tools. The rest of the tray goodies are use-once presterilized items. Would love to borrow one, but there's always shifts running in SPD
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cronicr
Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: Lobi]
#24688739 - 10/06/17 03:19 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Lobi said:
Quote:
stareatclouds said:
Quote:
Lobi said:
Have you seen locn9nes time-lapse of PCd grains go bacterial over the course of several months without being inoculated?
I'm not sure what this is supposed to prove beyond that his sterile and PC technique was solid? When we PC, I'm pretty sure we don't truly sterilize, we just call it that in our hobby. True sterilization would turn grain to mush from what I've heard.
Even after PCing, there are still some endospores left, we just kill enough of them off to allow our mycelium to jump ahead and takeover the sub. Yeah, if you let them sit around forever, eventually the bacteria will takeover.
Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes this is my understanding of it as well. We don't reach true sterilization. That was my point with pooling water or excess water germinating endos. Whether we expose inoculant or ourselves to it, it will go bacterial over time depending on environment/grain/etc
I have had wbs controls stay fine for 6 months. I've had others begin going bacterial after just 1 month. Normally depends on factors I stated earlier. But..
Quote:
bodhisatta said:
Quote:
Boogieman47 said:
Well the first one is about the plasma inactivation but just say the grains were artificially contaminated .. the second one just talks about ebdospores period but what would it matter if its in or out of the grain ? Its talkin about how they can withstand a nuclear war haha .. but then ive read somewhere else in the same context that they can be killed in a pc in 30 minutes but it also said not all will be killed ..
I believe making the grains on the wetter side helps aid the growth of bacteria due to the myc not being able to consume the nutes giving the spore time to thrive .. but i have noticed this more often in my oats then the wheat idk why but its true ..
And on the bags i know sometimes my sterile tek fucks the bags up but ill go through 30 bags with great results and then bam mold or some other nasty .. i dont know if i get a little lazy or wjat i know my bags are partly to blame i been usin .5 micron will be getting tje .2 next time they always look great until i shake them .. sometimes ill have to shake twice and they are good through the second shake ..
But i think making the grain in the bags perfect is more important then jars the same batch of grains prepped that i will use in both the jars finish nice where the dont .. and i know its due to more surface to cover but i use one master per bag ..
Also when doing bags i wipe my table with iso before taking bags out of pc, then i wipe my arms and hands, shake and wipe the masters, then get the metal ring off the jars i wipe under the ring, then i will open the bag from the sides of the airflow. I open the lid with 2 fingers and hold the bag as i pour . I dont know what else to do to be more sterile
A spore strip with 10 million endospores on it of the hardest to kill type placed in the middle of a load only takes 15m at 15psi to kill all of them and not only all of them the chance of even one survivor is 1/10,000,000
Thats sterilizing liquids. Grains have pockets of space that trap air so steam cant get there to sterilize
Endospores are extremely easy to kill once sterilization conditions are met
Boogie that's how I do my bags too. I don't think I'm the one introducing Shit and if I am it'd be mold.. Which I never get until the 3rd flush.
Yes we do not truly sterilize however as also stated not every grain or even batch of the same grain will carry the same endo load so you could do a batch of the and oats at the same time and your rye may sit in the shelf for months not inoculated and be fine where your oats may last a month..and the poi t I was making to you earlier is that it is not the pooling water that makes the endospores flourish because the grain is hydrated if it is going to grow it is going to grow...what the problem is that spot that is too wet will not be able to be colonized leaving it more vulnerable to any bacteria present...its more less splitting hairs yes I know this but just giving a better understanding to those reading that it doesn't cause contamination it causes unfavorable conditions...if the grain had a low endociu t lime wbr that spot would simply sit there wet and do nothing.
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   It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?
Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 10,128
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: cronicr] 1
#24688788 - 10/06/17 03:41 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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It's a worthwhile distinction to point out. Excess water isn't causing (more) endospores or increasing bacteria, it's just making the sub less friendly for the mycelium.
Reminds me of people thinking rust causes tetanus. No, it's just that rusty objects are often found in conditions favorable to tetani. You cut your hand on a freshly PC'd rusty mason jar lid and you're not getting tetanus.
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cronicr
Registered: 08/07/11
Posts: 61,436
Loc: Van Isle
Last seen: 2 years, 2 months
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: stareatclouds]
#24688793 - 10/06/17 03:44 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Not really...too often you see folks stating things like wet grains will cause contams burst grains will cause contams when in fact it simply isn't true.
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It doesn't matter what i think of you...all that matters is clean spawn I'm tired do me a favor
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stareatclouds
star eat clouds?
Registered: 09/29/14
Posts: 10,128
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Re: Is there a Time tested TEK for cutting bacteria in oat spwn [Re: cronicr]
#24688802 - 10/06/17 03:49 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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What were you saying not really at?
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