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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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A question for those against big business
    #2464630 - 03/23/04 05:15 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Okay, I've noticed that a few people here are avidly against big business, yet I can't see why. If you eliminate major corporations it will cause many problems, for instance the cost of manufacturing in small scale companies will be much more in many instances than large scale companies, and will cause prices to escalate. Also I guess people may think that it will create jobs, yet major corporations employ many people. For instance Walmart, they employ many people, and also due to there size have super cheap prices as they buy in massive quantities.

Anyway just a couple of my opinions, so I would like to know why those who dont support big business feel the way they do.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2464687 - 03/23/04 05:31 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

I'm not against big business per se. I just think they have too much influence in politics. I think if we stopped recognizing corporate personhood, then it would solve a lot of those issues. Also, regarding low prices: I certainly like paying less, but not when it involves supporting sweatshop labor overseas.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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Invisibleblink
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2464734 - 03/23/04 05:42 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

If you eliminate major corporations it will cause many problems



They shouldnt have been allowed to become so major in the first place.

Read No Logo by Naomi Klein. Watch Baraka.
It might make more sense why we hate so much then.
I would rather pay high prices than support a system that shits in my mouth and tells me to chew because they know what's best for me. :mad2:

Workers rights, freedom of speech (without threat of libel), homogenization of global culture, mass consumption, advertising in schools, political meddling, job-flight, and the promotion of "family values".  These are the reasons my hated for global conglomerates burns with the fury of a thousand burning suns.

No, really.... actually sit down and read No Logo, it's actually pretty interesting. :thumbup:

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InvisibleArmFromTheAbyss
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2464783 - 03/23/04 06:01 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Big business creates the concentration of wealth into the private sector. Some rediculously, unnecessarily rich guy owns the business and a few too many fancy cars, while the hardest working people at the bottom still can't afford to pay their bills. Often in these big businesses, manegerial authority is unrestricted, as they can just fire you if you stand up for yourself.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2464784 - 03/23/04 06:02 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

I prefer diffuse power over concentrated power in the hands of an elite few.

Wal-mart's prices aren't really that low.

Well, lower than who? Lower than convenience stores? Sure, but not much if any lower than most medium sized chains that cary the same items. I rarely buy meat there because their meat sucks. There is another local store in town that has much better meat at about the same prices.


Giant agro-corporations have centralized food production in such a way that has lead to more food being produced, but at the same time caused an increase localized food shortages resulting in more starvation, not less. Not to mention that their efficiency practices are inhumane and unsafe.


Large companies create job monopolies and reduce wage competition. This results in lower wages, which results mostly in higher profits for the wealthy, and possibly some reduction in prices, but if you have no job and no money, then slightly lower prices don't mean very much.

Yes, major corporations do employ many people, but not as many as several smaller companies would have.


Basically, the rich are getting richer, the poor are getting poorer, the poorest are getting dead, and the middle class are getting beans for $.03 a pound less. Whoopie!


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2464903 - 03/23/04 06:43 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

well put.

walmart employs less than 10 companies 1/10 it's
size in sales volume when you consider the fact
that each of these smaller companies employs
HR, legal, accounting and similar agents where
walmart can use a single group (albeit larger) to
handle these affairs for all shops.

I think that the best point is the concentration of
power, especially political power that sours people
the most.

corporate interest has gotten the US into a lot of
shitty situations in the past, present and will surely
continue to do so into the future.


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All I know is The Growery is a place where losers who get banned here go.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: afoaf]
    #2464968 - 03/23/04 07:01 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

I think the worst thing is that it creates more poor and more uber-wealthy while diminishing the middle class.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2465106 - 03/23/04 07:50 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Everyone seems to have covered it pretty well. Better than I could.

Corporations create a concentration of wealth and become far too powerful. I don't buy the fact that they create jobs. Many mom and pop businesses are forced to close up shop when Walmart opens up shop in their town.

The worst part about corporations to me is that they have so much influence in politics. No one should be able to buy politicians in America, yet that's exactly what happens.




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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2465170 - 03/23/04 08:07 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

There were many valid points in this thread, I shall have to ponder them further.


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InvisibleGijith
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2465180 - 03/23/04 08:10 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

I could care less about economic issues or companies becoming too powerful. I just care about quality. I absolutely believe that once companies go public, they're ten times more likely to go downhill. The main priority becomes risk control and how to squeeze as much money as possible from consumers in order to keep their holders happy. A public company will make 99.9 percent of its decisions based on what will yield the most profits. A private company doesn't have that pressure on it and is more likely to take risks and be original. It's rare that I take issue with a private company, no matter how big it is. I have a massive amount of respect for large company owners that care enough about quality to keep at least some of their interests off the market.

PS: Sabbath, the company you hinge your argument on, Walmart, is a piece of shit.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Gijith]
    #2465194 - 03/23/04 08:15 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

You have problems with the quality of Walmart?


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Gijith]
    #2465199 - 03/23/04 08:16 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

I was merely using walmart as an example, not making them the basis for my entire argument, plus I happen to enjoy the extremely cheap prices offered at the super walmart here.

edit, also I was merely putting forth my current understanding of big business, not trying to influence others, I was curious to hear the cons of big business as they were not apparent to me.


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Edited by blacksabbathrulz (03/23/04 08:18 PM)

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OfflinePhred
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: silversoul7]
    #2465368 - 03/23/04 09:03 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Seems the majority of responders have a beef not with big business, but with government's treatment of big business.

This is why there should be a complete separation between government and the economy. It is every bit as important as -- arguably more important than -- the need to separate religion and government, or education and government, or health care and government.

The very best thing government can do for the economy is to stay out of it entirely.

pinky


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InvisibleDazedSol
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2465386 - 03/23/04 09:06 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Working in a manufacturing field of business myself, i see all these points firsthand........

I firmly believe that a hand full of smaller 'mom and pop' operations go about things in a far more fair manner(employment,prices,quality of goods and service), run things more efficiently,and are better for the community and ultimately the economy on a whole than any one gloated mega corporation.......

Although, for the Yin there is a yang.......

The big corps were at one time small operations......and the little places are all striving to be big.......

as things advance the big ones get bigger and small ones are left constantly striving to expand or in some cases just survive.......some do, some dont.....the competitive environment breeds innovation along with contempt

Where should we have drawn the line? Could we ever have fairly drawn a line, a cut-off point of some kind? I dont see any conceivable way really.......





.
.
.
Well i guess one possible solution does exist......people have to become more civil yet.....truly start to care for each other......making everyone truly rich, further advancing technology and innovation to great hieghts and for what i  see as the 'right' reasons.......win=win type of thing :stoned:


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Peace,
Adam

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OfflinePhred
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blink]
    #2465406 - 03/23/04 09:12 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

blinkidiot writes:

I would rather pay high prices than support a system that shits in my mouth and tells me to chew because they know what's best for me.

Then aren't you fortunate you live in a country where you are free to do exactly that. There is no shortage of people willing (even eager) to sell you shoes stitched together by well-paid craftsmen working in their small family business, or clothes made of hand-woven fabrics designed by couturiers working for small clothing boutiques, or organically-grown portobellos (that designation always makes me laugh -- what mushrooms aren't organically-grown?), or one-of-a-kind stereo amplifiers lovingly handbuilt by some geek working out of his tiny factory, and more.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2465438 - 03/23/04 09:20 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Yes, it's just unfortunate that more people don't do that. The real root of the problem is the indifference of the American people.


what mushrooms aren't organically-grown?

Hydroponic mushrooms of course.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2465511 - 03/23/04 09:38 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
You have problems with the quality of Walmart?



I have a friend who works at Walmart, and he has problems with the way they treat their employees.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: silversoul7]
    #2465820 - 03/23/04 10:52 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

My older brother works at Walmart, he has a problem with the irresponsibility of the younger workers. They show up for work late or not at all (without even calling), they take an excessive number of sick days (usually clustered around weekends, school holidays or after a good load of snow is dropped in the local mountains), a great number quit without any notice, they show up to work in the morning stinking of booze from the night before, they're rude and/or inattentive to customers and then they have the gall to complain that management isn't paying their inexperienced slacking asses as much as the management gets. Go figure.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Invisiblez@z.com
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: silversoul7]
    #2465969 - 03/23/04 11:33 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Also, regarding low prices: I certainly like paying less, but not when it involves supporting sweatshop labor overseas.



I go to school with an exchange student from India. She is a big fan of the "sweat shops". Apparently the pay they offer is considerably higher than most other jobs over there. Also the cost of living must be taken into account. Thanks to sweat shops her parents were able to give her an education while maintaining a decent standard of living for themselves. According to her our idea of sweat shops is mostly a myth.


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

"I would rather be exposed to the inconveniencies attending too much liberty than to those attending too small a degree of it." - Thomas Jefferson

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2465990 - 03/23/04 11:43 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

I like big business.

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Invisiblethescientist
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Evolving]
    #2466011 - 03/23/04 11:58 PM (20 years, 9 days ago)

young people have a problem with walmart? i wonder why?
could it be shitty hourly wage?
lack of any benefits?
lack of representation?
being terrorized in the workplace?


Having a job that couldnt possibly support your existence must be exactly what the youth of today look forward to.

good thing bush has created so many of these jobs. employment up 20% in 2004.

big business is nessesary to some degree. we need big energy producers, food producers etc. that way our population can be sustained, kinda.
we need these critical sectors publicly owned so that they continue to benefit us. We watch as many of these businesses are bought and sold, only to be pillaged by private interests. this is happening over and over. the public needs to be protected against this bullshit.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: z@z.com]
    #2466371 - 03/24/04 02:29 AM (20 years, 9 days ago)

Quote:

z@z.com said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Also, regarding low prices: I certainly like paying less, but not when it involves supporting sweatshop labor overseas.



I go to school with an exchange student from India. She is a big fan of the "sweat shops". Apparently the pay they offer is considerably higher than most other jobs over there. Also the cost of living must be taken into account. Thanks to sweat shops her parents were able to give her an education while maintaining a decent standard of living for themselves. According to her our idea of sweat shops is mostly a myth.





Your freind is obviously a neocon dittohead.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineEkstaza
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2467108 - 03/24/04 10:10 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
Quote:

z@z.com said:
Quote:

silversoul7 said:
Also, regarding low prices: I certainly like paying less, but not when it involves supporting sweatshop labor overseas.



I go to school with an exchange student from India. She is a big fan of the "sweat shops". Apparently the pay they offer is considerably higher than most other jobs over there. Also the cost of living must be taken into account. Thanks to sweat shops her parents were able to give her an education while maintaining a decent standard of living for themselves. According to her our idea of sweat shops is mostly a myth.



Your freind is obviously a neocon dittohead.




Or she is seeing things from a different point of view.

What we view from the top as low, others may view from the bottom as high.

I know a person that recently got a job in their chosen profession and was told that the wages would have to be low at first. The employer actually apoligized for the fact that the wage that he was offering was well below what it should be. When told how much she would be getting the woman replied, "Wow, I've never had a job that paid this much". In fact, it was three dollars more an hour than she had ever made.

I don't think that flooding a market with extra cash would help it in the long run. As long as fair wages are paid according to the circumstances then I don't think any harm is done.


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YOUR EXPERIENCE WITH ANY GIVEN DRUG ISN'T THE DEFINITIVE MEASURE OF THE DRUGS EFFECTS.

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OfflineTheShroomHermit
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: blacksabbathrulz]
    #2467131 - 03/24/04 10:20 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

>Walmart, they employ many people, and also due to there size have super cheap prices as they buy in massive quantities.
-They don't buy in massive quantities. The Walmart system works because they only own the shelves... then they accept money from companies that produce things for the privelage of having there product on Walmarts shelves. Walmart also have an super cheap "great value" brand that is consistently lower than similar products. The reason behind this is Walmarts own products don't have the "Walmart tax" and can then undersell everything else.

I can understand where people are comming from on both sides of the arguement... but isn't it kind of fucked up to go into America and make it really big, only then realizing that instead of being admired for succeeding you are hated by the general population.

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Invisibleblacksabbathrulz
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: TheShroomHermit]
    #2467165 - 03/24/04 10:30 AM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

TheShroomHermit said:
>Walmart, they employ many people, and also due to there size have super cheap prices as they buy in massive quantities.
-They don't buy in massive quantities. The Walmart system works because they only own the shelves... then they accept money from companies that produce things for the privelage of having there product on Walmarts shelves. Walmart also have an super cheap "great value" brand that is consistently lower than similar products. The reason behind this is Walmarts own products don't have the "Walmart tax" and can then undersell everything else.

I can understand where people are comming from on both sides of the arguement... but isn't it kind of fucked up to go into America and make it really big, only then realizing that instead of being admired for succeeding you are hated by the general population.




Can you give a source, I was under the impression that they did buy in large quanities, but that is based solely on what I've heard. For instance my father who is VP of a major pharm company was complaining about walmart, as they wanted to buy a massive amount of an OTC drug at cost. He said that they always do that too.......


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: thescientist]
    #2467668 - 03/24/04 01:01 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

thescientist said:
young people have a problem with walmart? i wonder why?
could it be shitty hourly wage?
lack of any benefits?
lack of representation?
being terrorized in the workplace?


Having a job that couldnt possibly support your existence must be exactly what the youth of today look forward to.



Jesus Christ, today's youth are a bunch of fucking whiners. Terrorized at the workplace? Give me a break! My first real job was busing tables at minimum wage, no benefits, no representation and there was no Walmart around when I was a kid. Before that it was delivering papers, doing yard work for neighbors or selling lemonade and cookies on the street corners. Get this, Wallmart IS AN ENTRY LEVEL JOB for most people. You cannot rationally expect employers to shell out $50 grand a year for someone with little or no experience and a spotty track record. It's a fact, that younger people generally do not make as good employees as older people and their initial compensation reflects that. If you don't like Walmart, quit. You want more money and better benefits? Prove that you're worth it, I have and I make a hell of a lot more money now than when I first started working.

Now if you'll excuse me, my wife and I are travelling to down to the nearest Walmart and are going to buy as much as we can for very little money. Walmart is the best when you're trying to raise a family on a budget, ask some adults.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: z@z.com]
    #2468107 - 03/24/04 03:34 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Quote:

I go to school with an exchange student from India. She is a big fan of the "sweat shops". Apparently the pay they offer is considerably higher than most other jobs over there. Also the cost of living must be taken into account. Thanks to sweat shops her parents were able to give her an education while maintaining a decent standard of living for themselves. According to her our idea of sweat shops is mostly a myth.




Wow, so exploiting poor people from downtrodden countries isn't such a bad thing after all. They're so fortunate. Nike should be given a metal of honor.




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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2468118 - 03/24/04 03:37 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

So you think they'd be better off with no job?

You make it sound like they're victimizing them when all they're doing is not doing as much as they possibly can. That's hardly "victimizing".


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2468164 - 03/24/04 03:52 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

They should pay these people more money. How can you POSSIBLY make excuses for it!??!?!

Bottom line. FUCK companies who use slave labor. And fuck me for buying the shit.




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OfflinePhred
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2468193 - 03/24/04 04:00 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Learyfan writes:

Wow, so exploiting poor people from downtrodden countries isn't such a bad thing after all. They're so fortunate. Nike should be given a metal of honor.

Man, I have to laugh when I read comments like yours.

I live in a Third World country and have for the last sixteen years. I can guarantee you that if you tell a Dominican worker the foreign factories are "exploiting" him, he'll look at you like you've got bugs on your eyeballs, because he has a firm grasp of reality and you don't.

Every time a new foreign factory opens here, there is jubilation. The lineup of people applying for jobs is something to see. And whenever a foreign factory closes, there is weeping and wailing. The simple fact is that the foreign factories pay better than the Dominican ones, have significantly better working conditions, have health plans and often even daycare for their workers, and they usually pay transportation and even provide meals.

Yet a unionized American worker would die of apoplexy if asked to work in one. It's all relative.

If a Dominican could do better working elsewhere, he would work elsewhere. But what the Dominican realizes (and you apparently don't) is that before the factory opened he was either unemployed, or selling coconuts to other Dominicans, or at best working a lot harder for a lot less for a Dominican employer.

Despite what Noam Chomsky implies, these companies don't drive through the barrios in black SUVs rounding up employees at gunpoint and chaining them to the sewing machine tables. Everyone working there does so of his own free will and is free to leave at any time.

But of course you know better than the people working in these "sweat shops". You know better than the girl in India, and the Dominicans I could introduce you to. Because you know Bush knew.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2468344 - 03/24/04 05:00 PM (20 years, 8 days ago)

Why don't you pay them more money?

You're exploiting third worlders by not sending them all your money!


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

Edited by Baby_Hitler (03/24/04 05:01 PM)

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2473020 - 03/25/04 01:20 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Of course the people of those countries are happy to have jobs, but they're still being exploited. They're being paid shit money and you know it. I can't believe you act as if the companies are doing those people a favor. How heartless can you be?

BH: it's not my place to give these people money. The companies who move to these countries to exploit the poor should be doing that.

Oh wait, you guys were in favor of the war, so you probably believe that these companies open factories in these countries because they want to enrich the lives of the poor people who live there.




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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2473172 - 03/25/04 02:08 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Well, by "exploiting" them they're still doing them more good than you are. They are in fact improving their conditions rather than worsening them.

...but if all this fussing about "slave labor" results in pressure on the companies to pay more, then hey, I'm all for it. Good luck with that. I just hope it doesn't result in the businesses pulling out of these countries alltogether.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2473269 - 03/25/04 02:34 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

More money doesnt help any one but the government because if a comapny has to raise its wages then they are in return going to raise the prices they sell there product at to maintain there current level of profits. The government then has a higher pay to tax you at.. just seems like you end up with less money. Only way to solve all this is to put a profit lvl on companies or makeing them pledge a certain % of profit to their employee's.

And i also agree that companies should not be able to be involved in politics. I actually think that canidates shouldnt be able to use funds at all to obtain an office, rather be issued space in the media on just the issues none of this canidate bashing commercial junk.

Something else bout wal-mart its a great place to buy grocerys such as kellog brand cereals (they loose 9-22%) and papar products such as toliet paper and paper towles (they loose 10%) and most other grocery stuff they actually loose money on, but they make it up on the gm side of the store because every thing on that side of the store has a huge markup. Which is kinda underhanded because they use thei r cheap grocery prices to pull in customers cause they can get it all there makeing private grocery stores relocate or close down because they can not beat wal-mart prices on most grocery items.


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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2474659 - 03/25/04 08:46 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Quote:

Learyfan said:
Of course the people of those countries are happy to have jobs, but they're still being exploited. They're being paid shit money and you know it. I can't believe you act as if the companies are doing those people a favor. How heartless can you be?



Something is better than nothing. If the companies had to pay them the same wages they would pay an American then there would be no incintive to build a factory there at all. I suppose the people would be better off with no jobs than if they had jobs that you say have unacceptably low pay. How heartless can you be?


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"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." - C.S. Lewis

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: z@z.com]
    #2474685 - 03/25/04 08:53 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

I do believe they deserve safe working conditions and basic civil rights.


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"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2474971 - 03/25/04 10:04 PM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Learyfan writes:

Of course the people of those countries are happy to have jobs, but they're still being exploited.

Again, I have to laugh at comments like this. Exploited? Define "exploited". They make more money with more benefits under better working conditions than they could by working elsewhere. How on earth does this constitute expoitation? Take a reality pill.

They're being paid shit money and you know it.

Incorrect. They are being paid great money and they know it. What part of "They make more money with more benefits under better working conditions than they could by working elsewhere," are you having difficulty understanding?

I can't believe you act as if the companies are doing those people a favor.

They're not doing those people a favor, they are engaging in voluntary exchange. They are not doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, they are doing it out of self interest -- just as the employees are not working there to boost the company's profits, but working for their own self interest.

How heartless can you be?

How naive can you be? You demonstrate quite clearly that you haven't the faintest grasp of basic economics, personal freedom, or the nature of reality in a developing country. Until you learn at least a little bit about these things, you might want to refrain from making character judgments of people who understand quite well all three.

...you probably believe that these companies open factories in these countries because they want to enrich the lives of the poor people who live there.

Not at all. Unlike you, I am not naive. Companies open the factories here because they are gambling that to do so would be profitable.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2475639 - 03/26/04 01:28 AM (20 years, 7 days ago)

Maybe he's referring to some other sweatshops than the ones you know about.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2476158 - 03/26/04 08:58 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Unless he's referring to sweatshops in which the workers are rounded up at the point of a gun and chained to their workstations, the principle remains the same.

The fact remains that the employees of these corporations choose to accept employment there. Unpleasant as the jobs may be in the eyes of unionized workers in Western nations, the fact remains that the alternatives available to them are even less pleasant.

pinky


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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2476319 - 03/26/04 10:05 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Wow, so exploiting poor people from downtrodden countries isn't such a bad thing after all. They're so fortunate. Nike should be given a metal of honor.

:thumbup:

Funny how some people fall for the same shit century after century. 200 years ago we'd be hearing "Blacks in America live better than in Africa - we're doing them a favour making them work for a pittance". Then they could wheel out one household black and he'd say "It's true, slavery was good for me it's you damn libbies I blame". 

Same bullshit, different century :rolleyes:

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2476329 - 03/26/04 10:09 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

this whole 3rd world "slave labor" arguement reminds me of something that happened to me when I was about 5 years old.

Once, on the playground in kindergarten, a chum and I got into a conversation about money, which was then a new concept to us.

Now, this poor fellow was under the impression that the bigger a coin was, the more it was worth. So I got the bright idea to trade him all my nickels for all his dimes. Which he did of his own free will.

Did I rip him off? The teacher thought so. She made us trade back.

But the point is that a lot of 3rd world citizens dont realize how much their labor is worth on a global scale. The smart ones figure it out and come to America looking for work. But couldn't we say that the ones who stay in their home countries and work for american sweatshops are cheating themselves? And couldn't we say that the companies who employ these people are taking advantage of the fact that they dont realize what their labor is worth?

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2476338 - 03/26/04 10:13 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

But many of these companies don't even pay the minimum wage of the country they operate in.

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2476413 - 03/26/04 10:35 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
But the point is that a lot of 3rd world citizens dont realize how much their labor is worth on a global scale.



Their labor is worth what someone is willing to pay them. They can hold out for more and see how much work they can get - it is the same all over the world. It should also be noted that the cost of living in third world countries is a fraction of what it is in developed nations. Value is relative and subjective. A person living in a third world country getting U.S. minimum wage can live like a king compared to the majority of his countrymen. This is one reason why many Americans expatriate to other countries.

Would you rather 3rd world citizens not be given a chance for employment and higher wages than locally based companies are willing to pay them?

Would you rather manufactureres decide to invest in robotics and automate their production so as to avoid employing 3rd world workers at what you consider to be wages that are too low?

Who is better able to decide what is good for the worker, some American (or Brit) living in relative luxury and pontificating on a computer keyboard, or the worker himself living in a third world country with no chance of better wages anywhere else?


--------------------
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2476547 - 03/26/04 11:02 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

DoctorJ writes:

Now, this poor fellow was under the impression that the bigger a coin was, the more it was worth. So I got the bright idea to trade him all my nickels for all his dimes. Which he did of his own free will.

Did I rip him off? The teacher thought so. She made us trade back.


Are you saying the adult workers here have the economic knowledge of five year olds? That they are too dim to understand the difference between 20 pesos an hour and 30 pesos an hour? That strikes me as pretty racist.

But couldn't we say that the ones who stay in their home countries and work for american sweatshops are cheating themselves?

No, we couldn't. Believe it or not, a Dominican doesn't have to work for a foreign company. He could work for a Dominican company if he chose and if the Dominican company agreed to hire him. Since the Dominican companies on average pay less than the foreign companies, doesn't it logically follow that the Dominican worker is "cheating himself" by agreeing to work for the Dominican company?

And couldn't we say that the companies who employ these people are taking advantage of the fact that they dont realize what their labor is worth?

No we couldn't. They realize very well what their labor is worth. As Evolving has pointed out, it is worth whatever someone is willing to pay for it.

Here's something I find amusing. The same people who rant and rave about multinational corporations running "monopolies" and "cartels" are all in favor of foreign companies paying Western wages to workers in developing countries. Think about that for a few minutes and see if you can identify the contradiction.

pinky


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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Xlea321]
    #2476558 - 03/26/04 11:04 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Sweat shops are good. American fat cats are not taking advantage of people who have no alternative but to work for .03 an hour.

Whatever helps Pinky sleep at night.




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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2476586 - 03/26/04 11:10 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Are you saying the adult workers here have the economic knowledge of five year olds? That they are too dim to understand the difference between 20 pesos an hour and 30 pesos an hour? That strikes me as pretty racist.





ummmm, no. I wasnt saying that at all. I just thought that my story was a decent analogy. And it really did happen when I was 5 years old.

anyway, thanks for answering my questions.

although I must say that if I were a dominican, I would blow that pop stand, come work in america, and send money back. Just like many mexicans do in my state of Texas.

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2476680 - 03/26/04 11:37 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Learyfan writes:

American fat cats are not taking advantage of people who have no alternative but to work for .03 an hour.

Whatever helps Pinky sleep at night.


Address the issue, Learyfan. Are the Dominican employers who pay even less taking advantage of their employees?

Come on, man -- use your brain for just a few minutes to actually think this through. You have ignored completely the fact that working for a foreign company here is the best alternative there is. Your mental process follows the argument only until it registers "sweatshop", and then it grinds to a halt. Exert a little mental effort, dude. Force your mind to examine the issue rather than taking the easy way out -- "I don't have to do any thinking here because it's obvious pinky is a heartless monster."

pinky


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Offlinewrine420
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2476738 - 03/26/04 11:53 AM (20 years, 6 days ago)

But the point is that a lot of 3rd world citizens dont realize how much their labor is worth on a global scale. The smart ones figure it out and come to America looking for work. But couldn't we say that the ones who stay in their home countries and work for american sweatshops are cheating themselves? And couldn't we say that the companies who employ these people are taking advantage of the fact that they dont realize what their labor is worth?


I dont think that is the point. Third world citizens don't have the ability or, in many cases, the right to organize unions. While some might not think this is a big issue, global corporations see it very clearly. US companies spend millions on keeping those types of movements down.

Why? Let's look at history.

I think we are all to quick to forget how bad working conditions were back 100 to 120 years ago. We had some of the worst record of workers rights abuses as compared to many other countries. We were the Mexico of the "Balance of Power" era. What all was happening? Kids under 14 were working the factories, wages were extremely low, conditions were horendous. People were getting maimed by the machinery, and many workers didnt even see day light.

But we pulled through. How? Unions. Thank god our courts allowed these groups to flourish. We wouldn't have come out of this type of situation without them.

There lies the problem. Unions arent allow in Mexico, Brazil and many other poorer countries because the corporations help the government to quelch uprisings.

You ask why they dont realize their own plight and try to change the situation? First off, they can't because there are no unions. And secondly, the workers are looking to feed their families first.

Much of us can't understand this. We have food everyday, many of these workers don't.

But beyond that people, try and change the situation! Fight the war, fuck the norm!

Love, peace, and unity William

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2477050 - 03/26/04 01:10 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

You're not argueing against people placing social and consumer pressure on businesses to pay their workers a decent wage, provide safe work environments, and not take advantage of an oppressive situation are you?

These people are stilling the shit end of the stick, and some people care. By "some people" I mean mostly not the people who are providing these jobs. They're going to get away with as much as they can.

Is it then wrong to drag their names through the mud? Is it wrong to not be satisfied with these business practices?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: wrine420]
    #2477122 - 03/26/04 01:29 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Third world citizens don't have the ability or, in many cases, the right to organize unions.

And they prefer to hire little girls who can be brutalised and intimidated easier than adults.

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2477217 - 03/26/04 01:53 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

I'm sure he sleeps very well seeing as like it or not, he's right.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2477316 - 03/26/04 02:25 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
You're not argueing against people placing social and consumer pressure on businesses to pay their workers a decent wage, provide safe work environments, and not take advantage of an oppressive situation are you?



I know the question wasn't directed at me, but social and consumer pressures are always welcome (by me) in a free market and free society. They are important influences which can help to change things in a positive direction.

Quote:

Is it then wrong to drag their names through the mud? Is it wrong to not be satisfied with these business practices?



It's not wrong, but people should realize that what seems bad from the perspective of those living in the lap of luxury that those they wish to help may actually prefer the opportunities afforded by American businesses to the situations that would exist without those opportunities. If Americans stop providing jobs over there, the standards of living may cease to rise or may even decline. Many American companies bring with them BETTER management practices and employee benefits than locally based companies. (No, I do not claim that this is always the case) Also, as people's standards of living rise, they begin to demand better working and living conditions - after necessities are met their attitudes will change. One cannot reasonably expect that what took American society and business GENERATIONS to achieve in the U.S. can be simply implemented overnight in 3rd world countries.

I find it telling that no one has answered my questions...

Would you rather 3rd world citizens not be given a chance for employment and higher wages than locally based companies are willing to pay?

Would you rather manufactureres decide to invest in robotics and automate their production so as to avoid employing 3rd world workers at what you consider to be wages that are too low?

Who is better able to decide what is good for the worker, some American (or Brit) living in relative luxury and pontificating on a computer keyboard, or the worker himself living in a third world country with no chance of better wages anywhere else?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Evolving]
    #2477405 - 03/26/04 03:00 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Thems what you call "rhetorical questions".


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

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The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2477417 - 03/26/04 03:03 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

I was hoping for some honest answers.


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Evolving]
    #2477455 - 03/26/04 03:15 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Well, I guess I'll take a shot at them, though I don't think they were directed at me.


Would you rather 3rd world citizens not be given a chance for employment and higher wages than locally based companies are willing to pay?

No.

Would you rather manufactureres decide to invest in robotics and automate their production so as to avoid employing 3rd world workers at what you consider to be wages that are too low?

No.

Who is better able to decide what is good for the worker, some American (or Brit) living in relative luxury and pontificating on a computer keyboard, or the worker himself living in a third world country with no chance of better wages anywhere else?

Not a relevant question unless someone here were trying to make decisions for anyone other than themselves. All I see is here people criticising business practices. I don't see anybody making decisions for any third world citizens.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2477488 - 03/26/04 03:26 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

You're too honest, it's not fun that way. Where's Alex when you need him?


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To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Evolving]
    #2477501 - 03/26/04 03:31 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Whipping his slaves that he keeps in his basement.


Oh, was that a rhetorical question?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2477607 - 03/26/04 04:06 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

Whipping his slaves that he keeps in his basement.


Oh, was that a rhetorical question?



  :lol:


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2477634 - 03/26/04 04:14 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Learyfan writes:

American fat cats are not taking advantage of people who have no alternative but to work for .03 an hour.

Whatever helps Pinky sleep at night.


Address the issue, Learyfan. Are the Dominican employers who pay even less taking advantage of their employees?

Come on, man -- use your brain for just a few minutes to actually think this through. You have ignored completely the fact that working for a foreign company here is the best alternative there is. Your mental process follows the argument only until it registers "sweatshop", and then it grinds to a halt. Exert a little mental effort, dude. Force your mind to examine the issue rather than taking the easy way out -- "I don't have to do any thinking here because it's obvious pinky is a heartless monster."

pinky




Oh, i'm sure Dominican employers do pay their employees much less than the American companies. That doesn't change anything. American companies are taking advantage of an area where people are paid almost nothing by paying the people a little more than almost nothing. They could really help these people by paying them what their service is worth, but they don't. They get their products made dirt cheap and make a mint.

And no, I don't think you're a heartless monster. I think you're thinking dollar signs. I'm thinking human beings.





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--------------------------------


Mp3 of the month:  Sons Of Adam - Feathered Fish


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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2477636 - 03/26/04 04:14 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

This place is getting like a neocon kindergarten  :lol:

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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2477648 - 03/26/04 04:17 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

American companies are taking advantage of an area where people are paid almost nothing by paying the people a little more than almost nothing.

How about we bring back slavery? Surely slaves living in America would be better off than they are in Africa?  :smile2:

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OfflineLearyfanS
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Xlea321]
    #2477680 - 03/26/04 04:30 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

I'm sure they would thank us for being so generous.





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OfflinePhred
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2477688 - 03/26/04 04:32 PM (20 years, 6 days ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

You're not argueing against people placing social and consumer pressure on businesses...

Not at all. As I have noted here before, I personally have never knowingly purchased products made in Red China, for example. As a matter of fact, I go to a lot of trouble and expense here because of that .... the stores here are filled with Chinese junk, especially tools and fastenings and locks and stuff.

... to pay their workers a decent wage...

Nope. What I am saying is that a decent wage in Jamoa el Norte or Sabaneta is a very far cry from a decent wage in Manhattan or Paris.

...provide safe work environments...

Not aginst that either.

...and not take advantage of an oppressive situation are you?

Define "take advantage of" and "oppressive situation". If Pepsi pays more to the same people for doing the same job than Aguas Bellas, just who is being "taken advantage of"?

These people are stilling the shit end of the stick, and some people care.

These people were getting an even shittier end of the stick before the evil "big business bastards" gave them a better alternative. Why is it that so many in this thread have such a hard time grasping this simple fact? You can weep and wail and piss and moan and froth at the mouth and fulminate and bloviate till the cows come home, but that doesn't alter reality one little bit.

By "some people" I mean mostly not the people who are providing these jobs. They're going to get away with as much as they can.

News flash -- Dominican employers, big or small, don't pay their employees more than they get away with. Foreign employers, for the most part, do.

Is it then wrong to drag their names through the mud? Is it wrong to not be satisfied with these business practices?

Depends what your goal is. Economists talk about "unintended consequences". I read a lot of your posts. You're not a dummy. Given the hint above -- "unintended consequences", I'm guessing it won't take you long to figure out what would happen if all the foreign companies here started paying their employees American-type wages.

pinky


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2477832 - 03/27/04 11:39 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Define "take advantage of" and "oppressive situation".

A good example would be using violence to prevent workers from organizing a union.

I think you're holding the best of the best examples up as the standard, while some others are holding up the worst of the worst as the standard when in fact there is a broad spectrum of benevolence and exploitation.


As I have noted here before, I personally have never knowingly purchased products made in Red China,


U R A flaming neocon liberal!

Depends what your goal is. Economists talk about "unintended consequences". I read a lot of your posts. You're not a dummy. Given the hint above -- "unintended consequences", I'm guessing it won't take you long to figure out what would happen if all the foreign companies here started paying their employees American-type wages.

First of all that probably would be less profitable than employing Americans at American-type wages. Second, I can't think of any negative consequences that could have on the country in question.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Learyfan]
    #2477838 - 03/27/04 11:43 AM (20 years, 5 days ago)

So what do you suggest as a solution?


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2478040 - 03/27/04 01:08 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Baby_Hitler writes:

A good example would be using violence to prevent workers from organizing a union.

That's a bit more than "taking advantage of", that's illegal.

I think you're holding the best of the best examples up as the standard, while some others are holding up the worst of the worst as the standard when in fact there is a broad spectrum of benevolence and exploitation.

I don't think so. Learyfan's objection has nothing to do with violence against union organizers or with employees being denied what is contractually theirs, his objection is that the employers don't pay the same wages as they pay employees in Paris or London or Manhattan. And that the norm here is a fifty hour work week rather than a 35 hour work week. And that the factories aren't air conditioned, etc. Even then, he only objects when it is foreign employers doing these things, not indigenous employers.

First of all that probably would be less profitable than employing Americans at American-type wages. Second, I can't think of any negative consequences that could have on the country in question.

First of all, you are correct that it would be less profitable. So much so, as a matter of fact, that there would be absolutely no advantage to keeping the factory here open -- rather, it would become imperative to close it as quickly as possible. The factory would close and the employees would be laid off.

I can't bump my previous threads on this because they are now archived, but several times in the past I have detailed what happened when the current government first came into power here almost four years ago and immediately raised minimum wage and repealed some of the foreign investment incentives. Factories were closing left and right and unemployment soared. There was an analysis in Listin Diario taking a closer look at one region in one of the Zona Francas where around a dozen factories closed in a very short period of time. Over 8,000 employees were suddenly unemployed. This was to be expected, but what was more revealing and not immediately apparent to a non-economist was the fact that an additional 14,000 people working in small businesses or as self-employed enterpreneurs also were wiped out, because without the patronage of the 8,000 employees and their families there was no customer base to support them either.

But there's another unintended consequence few people think about. I hinted at it in one of my previous posts when I was talking about those who decry monopolies and cartels --

If foreign corporations could afford to pay their workers the same rates as they do in Paris or Manhattan or London, and proceeded to do so, the indigenous corporations could find no employees. All industry in the developing country would be foreign-owned in a very short time. There would be no "Aguas Bellas", just Pepsi and Coke. There would be no "Helados Bon", just Nestles and Baskin Robbins. There would be no "Sopas Linda", just Campbell's and Heinz and Liptons.

As a Laissez-faire Capitalist, I personally have no problem with that scenario, but I suspect I am in a very tiny minority. Certainly those here who are already railing against "Big Business" would burst a blood vessel at the "corporate takeover" of the industrial base of entire countries.

pinky


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InvisibleDazedSol
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2479158 - 03/27/04 08:28 PM (20 years, 5 days ago)

Well sure....the arguement that our foriegn companies pay more than that of the native ones does hold some water......and obviously it would be dumb not to work for the higher paying company......

But when these foriegn companies decide to open up shop and out bid the local 'sweat shops' of their workers do you really think they go there with the intention of 'helping' thse impoverished people?

I think they go there fully knowing they will be expoiting these peoples poor economy and in turn this will get their products made for grossly cheaper.....


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: DazedSol]
    #2479582 - 03/29/04 11:16 AM (20 years, 3 days ago)

the arguement that our foriegn companies pay more than that of the native ones does hold some water

Not sure it does...

The workers from the PT Hardaya Aneka factory demanded they be paid the new government minimum wage that was supposed to go into effect on April 1. According to the new minimum wage laws, the workers' wages should have been raised from $2.26 a day to $2.46 a day. But the Indonesian government allows garment and shoe manufacturers with large work forces to ask for permission to delay paying the new minimum wage if a public audit proves they are incapable of doing so. And the Nike factory had asked the government for permission not to pay the new minimum wage on the grounds that the wage increase would be a "financial hardship."

Nike's chairman and top CEO, Philip Knight, is worth over $5 billion dollars. And Nike made $673 million in profits last year. But they say they can't afford to pay the workers who make their shoes in Indonesia an extra 20 cents a day!


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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: DazedSol]
    #2479638 - 03/29/04 11:38 AM (20 years, 3 days ago)

DazedSol writes:

But when these foriegn companies decide to open up shop and out bid the local 'sweat shops' of their workers do you really think they go there with the intention of 'helping' thse impoverished people?

Re-read my earlier comments in this thread. You will find I have answered this already. To repeat --

No, of course that is not their motive. Nor do the employees accept employment with these corporations out of the desire to provide larger dividends to the corporate shareholders or to make sure the CEO can buy a new Ferrarri.

What's your point?

pinky


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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2479760 - 03/29/04 12:29 PM (20 years, 3 days ago)

I think the bottom line is people will do what ever they have to to survive weither that is waiting out on a high paying job wich they might starve waiting on, or one that pays slightly better than average (for there area) that they can walk right into. I know i personaly would take any job regardless of the wage if i could survive on it and take the better one when that comes along......but thats just me dunno about you guys.

Also just an example of American companiese operrating abroad do some good things. I worked for a furinture company that had a factory in Mexico, while we got paid $12 an hour (25 hours a week) where as they only got paid around $5 (40-60 hours a week) but the company helped them secure loans to purchase homes and cars that they automaticaly took payments out of thier checks, and they would not do things like that for us here in the US.


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I work my shitty 9-5 and I pay my taxes, I'm not hurting anybody else. So why do you care what i do in my spare time.

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OfflineProtester
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2479761 - 03/29/04 12:29 PM (20 years, 3 days ago)

I think the bottom line is people will do what ever they have to to survive weither that is waiting out on a high paying job wich they might starve waiting on, or one that pays slightly better than average (for there area) that they can walk right into. I know i personaly would take any job regardless of the wage if i could survive on it and take the better one when that comes along......but thats just me dunno about you guys.

Also just an example of American companiese operrating abroad do some good things. I worked for a furinture company that had a factory in Mexico, while we got paid $12 an hour (25 hours a week) where as they only got paid around $5 (40-60 hours a week) but the company helped them secure loans to purchase homes and cars that they automaticaly took payments out of thier checks, and they would not do things like that for us here in the US.


--------------------
I work my shitty 9-5 and I pay my taxes, I'm not hurting anybody else. So why do you care what i do in my spare time.

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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: A question for those against big business [Re: Phred]
    #2482679 - 03/30/04 02:18 AM (20 years, 3 days ago)

Quote:

pinksharkmark said:
Baby_Hitler writes:

A good example would be using violence to prevent workers from organizing a union.

That's a bit more than "taking advantage of", that's illegal.






Depends on the country whether or not it's illegal, or whether it matters if it's legal or not.


--------------------
"America: Fuck yeah!" -- Alexthegreat

“Nothing can now be believed which is seen in a newspaper. Truth itself becomes suspicious by being put into that polluted vehicle. The real extent of this state of misinformation is known only to those who are in situations to confront facts within their knowledge with the lies of the day.”  -- Thomas Jefferson

The greatest sin of mankind is ignorance.

The press takes [Trump] literally, but not seriously; his supporters take him seriously, but not literally. --Salena Zeto (9/23/16)

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