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Offlinemg420
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Registered: 02/09/04
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Last seen: 11 years, 7 months
Artificial substrate
    #2463777 - 03/23/04 02:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hi there,

I'm posting this in the advanced forum because I'm looking for some expert opinions. I'm going to begin experimenting with artificial substrates and I'd like to know what people have tried and any thoughts on the topic.

It is my understanding that mycelium needs nutrients and water to colonize. How well do P.Cubes respond to simulating these requirements? For example, there is a product called "Oasis" that is used in flour arranging. It is an inorganic inert block that soaks up and holds water, and it is very airy. Also, I'm considering things like cotton balls or polyfill to use as an artificial substrate.

In this substrate I would have to include nutrients. I'm considering using coffee, but I don't think that it would provide enough nutes on its own. I brew beer and I have packages of "yeast energizer" aka "yeast nutrients". Yeast for brewing feed on the grains used in the beer, just like p.cube myc feed on grains in substrate. Does anyone have any idea what liquid solutions or combinations thereof might produce a viable nute supply for myc to colonize an "Oasis" block, cotton or poly.

Don't tell me it won't work, tell me WHY it won't work. Thanks a lot.


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OfflineGardener
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2463810 - 03/23/04 03:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I i'm not a pro but i would be very methodic about it, keep a logbook

FInd what mushrooms love and hate, and becarefull what u use. For example if u use something salty chances are that your mushies wont like it.
another thing u should consider of is Ph.


--------------------
(a F1 bmw engine of the 80's would produce 1500bhp from 1500cc at 11000rpm and 5.5 bar pressure)


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Offlinemg420
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: Gardener]
    #2463818 - 03/23/04 03:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

yup, those are the types of things that I'm looking for. All you serious growers out there, drop some info into this thread one what exactly it is that p.cubes require from grains. If there is a particular ph they like, let me know. If there is a particular type of starch or sugar they like, etc etc...


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Offlineragadinks
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2464028 - 03/23/04 04:24 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

The mycelium grows in pure (?) dextrose ( see liquid inoculation tek's ).
But it does not produce a lot of active substances and probably won't fruit, either.


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Offlinemickywilliams2
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Registered: 05/27/03
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2464414 - 03/23/04 06:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

why are you doing this? Im just wonderin.
What exactly do you mean by artificial?
Bulk sub or something kept sterile?
Pf jars are similar to what youre trying to do here.
I believe I read of someone fruiting a pf cake containing only verm and yeast.

Myc might fruit on cotton balls without anything added. I dont know.
Im no expert.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2464458 - 03/23/04 06:33 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Don't tell me it won't work, tell me WHY it won't work



I won't tell you why it won't work, or that it won't work, cause it will work.

Doc Charlie had a few successful experiments back in the drooldonkey days, right before he got arrested and locked up that is.  He called it "floral foam", but I don't remember what he was using for nutrients.

Unfortunately, I don't remember the details, the original drool donkey is long gone, and I bet few people remember those experiments.  You might try going to the new donkey and asking around there.  Hell, maybe he's back online by now and can answer you himself.

BTW, semantically I don't think this is really an "artificial" substrate, anymore than I thought it was a "hydroponic" one when charlie was doing it.  It's just an inert media that you are using to hold nutrients, no different from verm in a cake, a glass jar holding a grain, or water holding dextrose for that matter, just a different structure.

Anyway, it can and will work, and you are the lucky one who gets to re-invent the wheel :wink:


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Offlinemg420
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #2466738 - 03/24/04 09:49 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes! I've had this plan for a square wheel for months!

Anyway, by artificial I meant 'not food'... I bet "floral foam" is exactly what I'm talking about. Good point that verm is the same idea, which it is, but i'm shooting for infusing the inert block with a liquid medium. Do you think that simply dunking an Oasis/floral foam in a dextrose solution would provide a good source of nutes and a good foothold for fruiting? I'm under the impression that honey tek doesn't fruit solely because it has nothing to fruit on, but is there anything else missing?

Maybe I should be boiling a bunch of nute-rich things, boiling the solution down for a greater nute density and soaking a block. I'll do some searching for that donkey business and post what I find. - Thanks


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Offlinemg420
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mickywilliams2]
    #2466971 - 03/24/04 11:27 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mickywilliams2 said:
why are you doing this? Im just wonderin.





Sciences don't get advanced by doing the same proven things over and over. It should be an ongoing challange for all shroomers to try to find new ways to cultivate.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2467323 - 03/24/04 01:09 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No, I don't think simple sugars such as honey or even simpler dextrose will provide enough nutrition for fruiting.

I would look to milk (for some reason I'd use non-fat dry milk, then rehydrate with sterile distilled water), peptone, yeast and maybe even a compost or worm castings tea as your best bets for liquid/disolvable nutrients that might support a fruiting.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Offlinemg420
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mycofile]
    #2468208 - 03/24/04 06:06 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

What of the water used for boiling potatoes or pasta? loaded with starches... (I could boil it down to increase the starch/liter)

Lets try to gather a solution for my first attempt. I will be dissolving caffein pills for sure (I'm a university student, i've got them around). Now I need to find out exactly what mycelium likes, and exactly what fruits like. Also, I'll try to find out what is in brewer's "yeast nutrients"

Why milk powder? I've never heard of dairy being used in mycology before. Also, why yeast? isn't yeast just going to be a competing microorganism?


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Offlinemickywilliams2
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2468516 - 03/24/04 07:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Dead yeast

Are you gonna spawn this substrate or keep it sterile?
I dont know anything about that foam but it may not hold up to sterilization.

Mycota has a recipe for liquid nute solution around here somewhere.
You need a well rounded solution. What exactly needs to be in there, i dont know.


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Offlinemg420
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mickywilliams2]
    #2468647 - 03/24/04 08:48 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I didn't know you could get dead yeast. I'll have a look around for that Mycota liquid solution, someone drop the recipe here if you find it before I do.

The foam is pretty tough, but I'll have to test out the whole sterilizing thing. Would I really even have to worry about it though? its coming straight out of the package into a solution containing h2o2. Just another point that needs more looking into.


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Offlinemickywilliams2
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2470206 - 03/25/04 03:56 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I dont know if you can buy dead yeast.
You can kill it yourself by heating it up.

The LNS wont have any enzymes for breaking down peroxide after you sterilize the solution. This will eliminate the option of multispore unless you can figure out a way to knock the concentration down to a suitable level. Adding the solution may achieve this, I dont know.

If the foam wont hold up to the heat of sterilization your best bet would be to try steaming or boiling and do all the work in sterile conditions.

I would tell you to break up the foam into small chunks and do a grain to foam transfer but this would cancel the idea of the nutes only coming from the LNS.

Hippie3 did some stuff with milk.
Mycota/Six Tango posted a list of different stuff and their nutritional value a while back.


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Invisiblepsilomonkey
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2472336 - 03/25/04 09:26 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Just a thought, I am no expert, but have you thought about using rockwool? You can get it as loft insulation from DIY stores. I bet it will be a lot cheaper than that floral foam stuff, and I am sure it can be PC'ed.


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Offlinemg420
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: psilomonkey]
    #2472448 - 03/25/04 10:33 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Good call, I'll look into it. I was under the impression that rockwool was the same price as Oasis (give or take) because they are both used in a similar manor in hydroponics. Rockwool as insulation?? I've heard of it being used for seedlinds.


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Offlinedoc34
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2472684 - 03/25/04 12:38 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Hey couldnt you leach-out some cow dung and take the leached water solution and sterilize it and add that sollution to your "inert block"?It would contain all kinds of "poopy" goodness right?


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mickywilliams2]
    #2472765 - 03/25/04 01:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

mickywilliams2 said:
I dont know if you can buy dead yeast.



Look for "Brewer's Yeast" or "Nutritional Yeast" at your local health food store (or using the two links I provided).

Addendum: Nutritional yeast would probably be better as it is grown specifically as a nutritional supplement or food on cane or beet molasses. Brewers yeast is a byproduct of beer making and will contain other things that are present during the brewing process, such as constituents of hops.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (03/25/04 01:53 PM)


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: Evolving]
    #2473222 - 03/25/04 04:18 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

1. You are going to have to sterilize this
2. Steaming should be sufficient
3. you will probably have to keep it sterilie, at least until colonized, I recomend bags
4. I already gave my suggestion for a nutrient broth. Non-fat milk, peptone, and nutritional yeast.

Milk has been used, I first got the idea from seeing it in the nute tables in the back of TMC and GG&MM, then I saw it recomended in Wayne's peroxide manuals. (offhand note, using non-fat milk in lieu of water in pf mix will yield a substrate with as much nutritioun as grains on a pound for pound or quart for quart basis) anyway, peptone is probably optional but cultivation suppliers are the only source I know of. Nutritional yeast comes from healthfood stores, and I have no idea if it's alive or dead, but it will certainly die when you steam it. If you want, supplement this mix with any tea made from a common substrate (manure/casting/compost/straw/wbs etc) or any dissolvable amendment (cafeine/beepollen/malt extract etc).

here's basically what I'd do.
1. mix solution
2. hydrate foam
3. drip drain for a minute or three
4. place in bag
5. steam for hour ish
6. seal/innoculate (order depends on your equipment and skills)

Treat it like a cake if you expect any fruits as I bet it will dry out quickly.

Good luck.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Invisiblewoodrow
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Registered: 03/17/03
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: mg420]
    #2475249 - 03/26/04 12:52 AM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Corrugated cardboard makes a good artificial substrate. It has good water retention and air circulation. Role cardboard into a log and cut it with a saw and then use string or rubber bands around the roles to hold them together. Cardboard itself is a nutrient but it lacks nitrogen. Cardboard soaked in coffee just might work. "Yeast nutrient" is probably ammonium phosphate crystals. These are a source of nitrogen and phosphorus and they might help as a nutrient source if used very sparingly. Too much nitrogen invites contams.


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Invisiblemycofile
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Re: Artificial substrate [Re: woodrow]
    #2476675 - 03/26/04 01:37 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have no idea what "yeast nutrient" is, I've never seen it or heard of it. Nutritional yeast is simply dried flakes of yeast that can be bought at health food stores, intened as dietary supplements for human consumption.


--------------------
"From a certain point of view"
-Jedi Master Obi Wan Kenobi

PM me with any cultivation questions.

I just looked at my profile and realized I had a website at one point in time on geocities, it's not there anymore and I have no idea what I had on it. Anybody remember my website from several years aga? PM if so please.


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Mushrooms, Mycology and Psychedelics >> Advanced Mycology

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