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InvisibleXlea321
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Neocons and psychedelics
    #2463461 - 03/23/04 12:42 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In another thread it's alleged that neocons are just as likely to take psychedelics as people on the left. Despite the fact that I've never heard a neocon pushing psychedelics while I've heard many on the left talking positively about them - Bill Hicks, Lennon, Leary etc etc.

With psychedelic use renowned through history for emphasising typical left-leaning ideas like love for your fellow man, the environment etc. What does a neocon think when he trips? Does he sit and stew about how much he'd like to cut welfare to single moms? When he walks in nature does he think "I could make an enormous profit off this land"? When he sees a deer does he think "I could blow the head off that bastard if I had my rifle with me"?

What's going on in a neocons head when he trips?


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Anonymous

Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2463517 - 03/23/04 01:07 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

i'll break my silence to address this one....

there is probably 1 neocon here and i suspect he's never even eaten mushrooms.

as for me... when i trip, it is nearly always a full communion with nature. i trip outdoors, even in the winter. the experience is for me, as it is for many, full of themes of empathy, unity, and harmony with the rest of the ecosystem of which we are all a part. believe it or not, a person can be filled with empathy and good will towards his fellow man, and harmony with the earth, and still not support the initiation of force as a means to acheive social goals.

the highest social virtue is peace, not equality. this is not obscured during my psychedelic experiences.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: ]
    #2463729 - 03/23/04 02:35 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

a person can be filled with empathy and good will towards his fellow man, and harmony with the earth,

Yet still support economic principles that put profit before everything else.

Doesn't follow somehow.

Do you have any cultural references to support this idea that right-wingers are just as likely to have fondness for psychedelics? Any famous right-wingers who say "Go out and take psychedelics"?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2463746 - 03/23/04 02:43 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I've become more and more libertarian in my time here, and I believe that at least libertarian economic principles put freedom above everything else. Now, it's true that the Neocons are quite a bit more partial to big business at the expense of labor and the poor, but many of them probably think that these policies are actually good for everyone. Remember, there are still plenty of people who honestly believe in the Trickle-Down theory.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: silversoul7]
    #2463752 - 03/23/04 02:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Freedom above profit?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2463768 - 03/23/04 02:52 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yes. If you have a truly impartial economic system, then it will not hinder the efforts of those who wish to better their lives. Now, the Republicans in office have gone beyond this and have created a sort of corporate socialism which values profit over all else. Libertarianism, on the other hand, is based on freedom for all to that which is theirs. Liberal(and especially socialist) economic policies put equality over everything else, including freedom. Now, I prefer liberal economic policy over the profit-driven neocon policy, but it is only libertarianism which puts freedom above all else.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: silversoul7]
    #2463786 - 03/23/04 02:59 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

If you have a truly impartial economic system, then it will not hinder the efforts of those who wish to better their lives

You mean like mushmaster said, the freedom to pay workers a bowl of soup a day? In working conditions filled with deadly fumes and dangerous machinery that rips limbs off? Along with banning trade unions if they feel like it and firing anyone who complains? Because people have the *freedom* not to work there?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2463807 - 03/23/04 03:08 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

You mean like mushmaster said, the freedom to pay workers a bowl of soup a day? In working conditions filled with deadly fumes and dangerous machinery that rips limbs off?



The only people who would work for a bowl of soup a day would be people who have nothing. In a free market, jobs compete, and if one place is paying its workers a bowl of soup a day, and another is paying them $6 an hour, guess which company more people are going to want to work for? And I don't see why safety standards would be in conflict with a libertarian economy.

Quote:

Along with banning trade unions if they feel like it and firing anyone who complains?



Trade unions had political power before they were in the pockets of politicians.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Anonymous

Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2463814 - 03/23/04 03:11 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Yet still support economic principles that put profit before everything else.

i support social principles that allow individuals to peacefully persue self-interest and profit if they desire, so long as they do not commit forceful aggressions against other people in the process.

there is nothing inherently evil about self-interest, and nothing inherently good about altruism. what matters is not the intended recipient of action, but the action itself.. if the self-interested, profit-driven action of one person does not forcefully infringe upon another person, there can be no rational grounds for limiting it, and conversely, if a person does forcefully trespass against his fellow man, the fact that his actions may have been driven by altruistic motives does not excuse him of any guilt.

the fact of the matter is that even self-interested, profit-driven action does benefit other people, and harms no one, when it is kept free from coercion, while the altruistic persuits of the socialists\collectivists benefit one party at the expense of another.

eating mushrooms does not change any of this.

Do you have any cultural references to support this idea that right-wingers are just as likely to have fondness for psychedelics?

no, and it's not an idea that i'd agree with. psychedelics are more often used by socialist-leftist-collectivist types, as are organic vegetables and incense. my point is that the psychedelic experience itself does not necessarily associate one with collectivist doctrines.

i first ate mushrooms during my socialist days. the first experiences turned me on to eastern mysticism, meditation, philosophy, art, and nature, but did not pull me any further to the left or help to keep me there.


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: silversoul7]
    #2463824 - 03/23/04 03:12 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

In a free market, jobs compete, and if one place is paying its workers a bowl of soup a day, and another is paying them $6 an hour,

That isn't what happens. Check out south east asia or mexico where the market operates with very little control by the government. What happens is something known as "the race to the bottom". One company sees another paying one bowl of soup a day and decides to increase their profits by only paying half a bowl of soup a day. Conditions don't improve in that situation - they get worse. Profit comes first.

Trade unions had political power before they were in the pockets of politicians.

Sure, after thousands of people fought and died in the face of pitiless corporate opposition for those rights. The free market sure as hell didn't say "Hi guys, you're all free to form unions - off you go".


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: ]
    #2463833 - 03/23/04 03:19 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

there is probably 1 neocon here and i suspect he's never even eaten mushrooms.

Hang on mush, are you saying there's only one person here who supports Bush and the republican party?


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2463842 - 03/23/04 03:22 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

how is it that support for the republican party makes you a neocon?

that's just a ludicrous assertion.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2463895 - 03/23/04 03:40 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

That isn't what happens. Check out south east asia or mexico where the market operates with very little control by the government. What happens is something known as "the race to the bottom". One company sees another paying one bowl of soup a day and decides to increase their profits by only paying half a bowl of soup a day. Conditions don't improve in that situation - they get worse. Profit comes first.



Ah, but these are developing countries. Perhaps things might be a bit different in a post-industrialized country like the US? Now, I'm personally not entirely opposed to minimum wage laws(though they do have a lot to do with the exportation of American jobs), but when I talked about libertarian economic structure, I was referring more to an impartial sort of capitalism which does not subsidize industries and other special interests, and thus cannot favor business over labor, or vice versa.


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: afoaf]
    #2463914 - 03/23/04 03:46 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

No, no, no foaf, that's not how it works. See, Alex eats mushrooms which means that he's open minded which means that anyone that disagrees with him is closed minded and also wrong. This means that he can dismiss all ideas other than his own without consideration.

See how that works?


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OfflinePhred
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: silversoul7]
    #2463939 - 03/23/04 03:54 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Well, despite the fact that I have been unable to find any recent thread where anyone has alleged that "neocons" (or even conservatives) are just as likely to take psychedelics as "neocoms", and despite the fact that I am a Laissez-faire Capitalist rather than a neocon or a neocom, I would like to comment on the apparently incomprehensible (to many) fact that those in favor of individual freedom do not suddenly become in favor of the initiation of force after their first psychedelic experience.

It's because those who tell you that psychedelics scramble your mind and make you stupid are lying. That is just a groundless assertion put forth by the people who brought you the War on Drugs. It has no basis in fact.

pinky


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Invisibleafoaf
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2464024 - 03/23/04 04:23 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

wow, it all makes sense now.

I owe you one.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: afoaf]
    #2464236 - 03/23/04 05:29 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

I have a friend who perfectly fits the description of a neocon(he's said quite plainly that he thinks the US should act as an international police force), and he's done more psychedelics than I have(though he's apparently never experienced the mind-opening, spiritual aspect of it).


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: afoaf]
    #2464290 - 03/23/04 05:45 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

how is it that support for the republican party makes you a neocon?

Because the leaders of the republican party are renowned neocons following neocon policy?


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Xlea321]
    #2464301 - 03/23/04 05:50 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Alex123 said:
how is it that support for the republican party makes you a neocon?

Because the leaders of the republican party are renowned neocons following neocon policy?



So all party members think like the party leaders? Guess I'll have to change my party registration, since I disagree with the Democratic party leadership on guns and affirmative action.


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"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Neocons and psychedelics [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2464314 - 03/23/04 05:53 PM (12 years, 8 months ago)

See, Alex

Any chance you'll address the topic instead of getting personal? What is it about you neocons that you get so upset? Are you really so insecure?

This means that he can dismiss all ideas other than his own without consideration.

Give me one of your ideas then. I'd LOVE an idea rather than the same childish personal shit you neocons post day after day. Are you saying neocons are renowned for their psychedelic drug use? Can you give me a single cultural example to support your position?

I'm not holding my breath. My guess is you'll just spew more personal shit  :yawn:


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