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Svetaketu
The Devil's Avocado 🥑
Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,509
Loc: United States
Last seen: 10 hours, 33 minutes
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
You clearly have not read my post.
If living is optional and we don't have to do it, then why go on? All of what you are saying would make sense if we didn't have a choice and had to live until some day we expire. But your points make no sense when life is optional. So I ask, if life is optional then why bother living it?
Because life is full of beautiful things that make me want to continue living, despite the suffering I will encounter. Every square inch of existence is riddled with stunning complexities, you can see them if only you take the time to look.
If you can see nothing worth living for, then I suggest you adjust your current situation, until you find something worth living for.
Haven't you ever felt Joy? Passion? Love?
Aesthetic experience alone is enough reason for me to continue living. When was the last time you climbed a mountain just to look at the view? Went into a forest and just experienced your surroundings? Meditated and just focused on existing?
-------------------- LAGM2020 LAGM2021
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redgreenvines
irregular verb
Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 38,061
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Re: Life is optional [Re: Svetaketu]
#24659062 - 09/25/17 02:27 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said: Aesthetic experience alone is enough reason for me to continue living. When was the last time you climbed a mountain just to look at the view? Went into a forest and just experienced your surroundings? Meditated and just focused on existing?
-------------------- _ 🧠_
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Your main "observation" of life, which is extremely petty, infers that "suffering" is the problem.
Whether or not it is an intentional blindfold you pull over other people's heads or not, I don't know. Though I suspect you are being dishonest in a lot of ways.
A truer observation of life would reveal that suffering is not truly a negative force, rather in some ways an indication of growth/healing as well as an indication of danger.
In no way is it truly in itself a negative thing to undergo. Rather a tool to indicate what is negative.
Thus, suffering itself is positive, and the forces that causes one to suffer should be the true concern, and can be prevented/perceived appropriately.
Life has options.
Edited by remake (09/25/17 03:27 PM)
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pineninja
Dream Weaver
Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Re: Life is optional [Re: remake]
#24659523 - 09/25/17 05:38 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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The struggle is and of itself. Quite pointless dont you see. Because both sides need to be here. Both sides are absolutely necessary.
Your love or lack thereof. Your hate the same. Even the intelligence of Kasparov. Needed new fools for a game.
The despair is intrinsic. But so is hope. Sometimes for balance. Enforced rationale must elope.
Seeing the evil is important. But not to be Blinded is key. There's two sides to this story. It's for you to make peace easier to see.
The future is not promised. It never has been. All you have is now. And your choice remains to be seen.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student
Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Re: Life is optional [Re: remake]
#24659544 - 09/25/17 05:47 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said: Because life is full of beautiful things that make me want to continue living, despite the suffering I will encounter. Every square inch of existence is riddled with stunning complexities, you can see them if only you take the time to look.
If you can see nothing worth living for, then I suggest you adjust your current situation, until you find something worth living for.
Haven't you ever felt Joy? Passion? Love?
Aesthetic experience alone is enough reason for me to continue living. When was the last time you climbed a mountain just to look at the view? Went into a forest and just experienced your surroundings? Meditated and just focused on existing?
YES.
Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: Your main "observation" of life, which is extremely petty, infers that "suffering" is the problem.
Whether or not it is an intentional blindfold you pull over other people's heads or not, I don't know. Though I suspect you are being dishonest in a lot of ways.
A truer observation of life would reveal that suffering is not truly a negative force, rather in some ways an indication of growth/healing as well as an indication of danger.
In no way is it truly in itself a negative thing to undergo. Rather a tool to indicate what is negative.
Thus, suffering itself is positive, and the forces that causes one to suffer should be the true concern, and can be prevented/perceived appropriately.
Life has options.
YES.
But we all know what's coming:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said: No
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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Thanatos10
Stranger
Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Life is optional [Re: remake]
#24659767 - 09/25/17 07:09 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: Your main "observation" of life, which is extremely petty, infers that "suffering" is the problem.
Whether or not it is an intentional blindfold you pull over other people's heads or not, I don't know. Though I suspect you are being dishonest in a lot of ways.
A truer observation of life would reveal that suffering is not truly a negative force, rather in some ways an indication of growth/healing as well as an indication of danger.
In no way is it truly in itself a negative thing to undergo. Rather a tool to indicate what is negative.
Thus, suffering itself is positive, and the forces that causes one to suffer should be the true concern, and can be prevented/perceived appropriately.
Life has options.
Tell that to cancer patients or people who have commuted suicide.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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Quote:
the forces that causes one to suffer should be the true concern, and can be prevented/perceived appropriately.
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Thanatos10
Stranger
Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Life is optional [Re: Svetaketu]
#24659806 - 09/25/17 07:24 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Svetaketu said:
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
You clearly have not read my post.
If living is optional and we don't have to do it, then why go on? All of what you are saying would make sense if we didn't have a choice and had to live until some day we expire. But your points make no sense when life is optional. So I ask, if life is optional then why bother living it?
Because life is full of beautiful things that make me want to continue living, despite the suffering I will encounter. Every square inch of existence is riddled with stunning complexities, you can see them if only you take the time to look.
If you can see nothing worth living for, then I suggest you adjust your current situation, until you find something worth living for.
Haven't you ever felt Joy? Passion? Love?
Aesthetic experience alone is enough reason for me to continue living. When was the last time you climbed a mountain just to look at the view? Went into a forest and just experienced your surroundings? Meditated and just focused on existing?
Again, those are things that have to be done in order to make life worth it if you choose to live. But they don't answer the question as to whether or not one should live if it is optional. When you're dead you don't have to do anything to make it worthwhile.
From a logical perspective, life is work for no reason. It has only one destination and it can't be avoided. All our pursuits, goals, and dreams amount to little more than a hole in the ground. We tell ourselves we have to keep going but we don't really. I'm sure if suicide was painless and reliable that many people would likely opt out of life. After all, one of the main deterrents is that there isn't a reliable and painless method.
Again, your argument holds water only if we don't have the option of suicide. That as long as we are stuck here we have to make the best of it lest we slowly suffer until we die. But if there was a painless "out" then your argument would be null and void. There really wouldn't be a reasonable excuse to stay when you don't have to.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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Thanatos10
Stranger
Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Life is optional [Re: remake]
#24659817 - 09/25/17 07:26 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said:
Quote:
the forces that causes one to suffer should be the true concern, and can be prevented/perceived appropriately.
Incorrect. Suffering itself isn't always on indication of growth or transformation. Plenty of people suffer without anything positive following from it. It's just agony until death releases you. The view that suffering leads to growth and healing is naive. Sometimes it does, but not most of the time
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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pineninja
Dream Weaver
Registered: 08/17/14
Posts: 12,468
Loc: South
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Are you enjoying letting people know that it's meaningless?
Isn't that also pointless.
Was it pointless for you to find out its pointless.
-------------------- Just a fool on the hill.
Edited by pineninja (09/25/17 09:43 PM)
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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You seem extremely isolated and either dependent/codependent.
I don't think you truly have good intentions at all.
Most of your "declarations" smell like horseshit.
The fact that there are less than ideal instances of suffering does not render what I have said void.
It truly appears as if you are an advocate for imposing suffering.
What you are saying and what you are implying is filled with intentional confusion so as to deter any individual trying to make life more enjoyable to himself/herself or those around them.
It doesn't seem as if you have tried to do anything with your life and tried your best. You seem narcissistic as well. You should go see a mental health professional and stay away from internet forums where you can cause actual damage to people who are already in pain.
Life is not a game.
Edited by remake (09/25/17 08:02 PM)
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Thanatos10
Stranger
Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Life is optional [Re: remake]
#24659955 - 09/25/17 08:27 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: You seem extremely isolated and either dependent/codependent.
I don't think you truly have good intentions at all.
Most of your "declarations" smell like horseshit.
The fact that there are less than ideal instances of suffering does not render what I have said void.
It truly appears as if you are an advocate for imposing suffering.
What you are saying and what you are implying is filled with intentional confusion so as to deter any individual trying to make life more enjoyable to himself/herself or those around them.
It doesn't seem as if you have tried to do anything with your life and tried your best. You seem narcissistic as well. You should go see a mental health professional and stay away from internet forums where you can cause actual damage to people who are already in pain.
Life is not a game.
Figures you would change the subject rather then address the issue at hand. I said why go through all that effort when you don't have to. If you had an easy out there would really be no reason to continue living, since the stuff that makes life "worth it" only applies to the living. When you are dead you don't have to make anything worth it. In fact it's telling that if you don't make life "worth it" you suffer, which seems to be the baseline condition of existence .
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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People with warped perceptions, either immature/mentally unstable, would suffer from trivial concerns such as life being meaningless.
In general suffering isn't that big of a deal to correct per individual.
Larger problems we have to work together to solve.
You have yet to die. Despite your death fetish, you as a living person, are completely ignorant of what death actually is or will be. Since death is not optional in any case. Trying to improve life and enjoy it is not futile.
I seriously doubt you have lived long enough to make an actual decision of what life "is".
You are generalizing to an amazing degree and your observations are not rooted in reality.
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,242
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: As long as we are stuck here we have to make the best of it.
The view that suffering leads to growth and healing is naive. Sometimes it does, but not most of the time.
Even in your own words sometimes 'suffering' or effort as I would call it can lead to growth and healing. And 'most of the time' is sounding like a generalisation. How can you speak for everyone? I don't think you can.
Quote:
Thanatos10 said: why go through all that effort when you don't have to.
For some reason that to me seems similar to asking why go through the effort of mixing several ingredients together to make a cake, the answer seems pretty obvious, you do have to if you want that cake. Or at the very least you have to go through the effort to get the money to purchase that cake if you do in fact want it.
Quote:
He who has a why can bare any how.
What do you want in life other than death? Is it recognition, wealth, booty?
I want to be content, but it's not easy to achieve and I think it requires some suffering to achieve sustainability in one's own life, unless they're born with a silver spoon in their mouth which probably makes it easier. It is a challenge, and this merely begins to describe it. Overall I don't think it's beneficial to expect something like being content to last forever, and similarly I don't think it's beneficial to expect that suffering will last forever either. Do you not have a view of different cycles or seasons in the experience of life?
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Thanatos10
Stranger
Registered: 01/19/15
Posts: 2,770
Loc: South Florida
Last seen: 3 years, 10 months
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Re: Life is optional [Re: remake]
#24660037 - 09/25/17 08:58 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
FranniePilgrim said: People with warped perceptions, either immature/mentally unstable, would suffer from trivial concerns such as life being meaningless.
In general suffering isn't that big of a deal to correct per individual.
Larger problems we have to work together to solve.
You have yet to die. Despite your death fetish, you as a living person, are completely ignorant of what death actually is or will be. Since death is not optional in any case. Trying to improve life and enjoy it is not futile.
I seriously doubt you have lived long enough to make an actual decision of what life "is".
You are generalizing to an amazing degree and your observations are not rooted in reality.
Suicide is optional, death isn't. One need not know what death is like to choose it over life, especially given how life is a struggle just to make it bearable. Otherwise you suffer. This is the fact of existence. No struggle means a slow and painful death.
It's funny how you think we are still on meaninglessness because that's got nothing to do with this. The fact that you haven't been able to assail the points I'm making makes me think that it's true. No one in this thread has been able to take down the argument and that makes me sad. I was really hoping this revelation was wrong.
One need not live long to see life for what it is, that's just false logic.
-------------------- As lightless oblivion devours you, drown in the ever-blooming darkness.
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remake
Registered: 01/05/16
Posts: 4,201
Loc: South Africa
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It is wrong because it is a lie.
How you say "suffering" to make it "worth it" as if it some kind of great tragedy sounds like something someone would say who literally hasn't even tried to better their circumstances. Or has yet come to terms on how to put their pride/lust/greed aside for simple living.
Life itself is extremely interesting to me, it contains everything I care for. I have also accepted the notion of impermanence.
Times of suffering in my life served as purification, which afterwards increased my appreciation of life.
I'm not here to serve you. You have your own hands and feet. I assume you're a big boy.
Edited by remake (09/25/17 09:27 PM)
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,242
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What have you revealed? That suicide is an option? That suffering sometimes leads to growth and healing? That the phenomenal-self is some sort of biological process?
Succinctly can you make a simple list of dot points for what your 'revelation(s)' is or are? Because the 'revelations' I just put up from what I've understood of your points are nothing new.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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sudly
Quasar Praiser
Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 11,242
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Eventually you get better at handling yourself man. At least in my experience I have because for example it took me 3 attempts to get my manual license, but I succeeded because I made time investments for the future, I practiced, I got lessons, and I got better.
I feel odd having so much time in the day. Knowing I do not have to attend university.
I'd rather not sit here and get high forever. I've disciplined time management too, for my own life.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Svetaketu
The Devil's Avocado 🥑
Registered: 10/08/15
Posts: 1,509
Loc: United States
Last seen: 10 hours, 33 minutes
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Re: Life is optional [Re: sudly]
#24661099 - 09/26/17 10:14 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Again, your argument holds water only if we don't have the option of suicide. That as long as we are stuck here we have to make the best of it lest we slowly suffer until we die. But if there was a painless "out" then your argument would be null and void. There really wouldn't be a reasonable excuse to stay when you don't have to.
Incorrect, you misunderstood my argument.
I never said "that as long as we are stuck here we have to make the best of it lest we slowly suffer until we die."
No one is stuck here, the door is one shotgun shell away. If that's not reliable and painless enough for you, there are plenty of tall buildings giving away free tickets to eternity.
I said there are many good reasons to choose to stay here, and I gave some examples of them. Namely aesthetics, love, friendships, humor, passion, joy.
On a side note, you have no idea what death is like. You can guess all you want, but for all you know death could be more uncomfortable than life.
Quote:
Thanatos10 said:
Again, those are things that have to be done in order to make life worth it if you choose to live. But they don't answer the question as to whether or not one should live if it is optional. When you're dead you don't have to do anything to make it worthwhile.
My response answers both of these questions. Yes they are things you need to do in order to make life worth it, but they also affirm that you should choose to live if it's optional, because with relatively minimal effort, life can be very enjoyable.
This seems so obvious I shouldn't have to write it, but of course you need to Do things to make life worth living. If you don't do anything you aren't living, you're just dying slowly.
Death isn't worthwhile, it's death. There's no you to perceive the worth or the while.
By definition things can only be worthwhile in life, because only in life does time have any meaning, and only in life are some things more "worth" time than others.
-------------------- LAGM2020 LAGM2021
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Jokeshopbeard
Humble Student
Registered: 11/30/11
Posts: 26,088
Loc: Deep in the system
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Quote:
Thanatos10 said: No one in this thread has been able to take down the argument and that makes me sad. I was really hoping this revelation was wrong.
This is getting soooooooooooooo fucking boring. You drone on like a broken record about your 'argument' and your 'belief' that 'someone' must prove you wrong.
I think what is entirely evidenced by this yawnfest of a thread is that this 'argument' only exists in your head, and that you cling to it like a man afraid of drowning should he let go of it. You are clearly very afraid of death.
It's pathetic, and I really wish you'd just drop the subject and go away, as all you're doing is trying to bring everyone else here down to your level of miserable existence. I see so many here that see value in life and all you do is refute their feelings and faith and beliefs over, and over, and over again. I see so many trying to do right by you, whilst you just take, and take, and take, and take. I see you giving nothing back. You're an emotional vampire.
They don't say 'misery loves company' for no good reason.
-------------------- Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not. --Jac O'keeffe
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