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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: qman]
    #24588014 - 08/29/17 01:35 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I mentioned rent controls based on income that would make a huge difference to many people.

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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24588022 - 08/29/17 01:37 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The fact that our inequality continues to grow more and more, one unprecedented level to the next, just goes to show that none of this is inherent.

The rich few dont have to own everything while the many suffer. Stop arguing against your own class' interests.




I'm not suggesting the inequality doesn't exist and that it's not a major problem, the debate begins with if many of these problems are structural in nature or if there's a quick policy fix.

I don't think hiking the minimum wage is a real solution to our structural problems of wealth and income inequality. I'm not against hiking it, but I think it's a wash at the end of the day.

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Offlineqman
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: Cyrus19] * 1
    #24588027 - 08/29/17 01:39 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
I mentioned rent controls based on income that would make a huge difference to many people.




That might be a good policy to supplement the lack of wage growth.

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OfflineTmethylM
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Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
Last seen: 1 year, 6 months
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: qman]
    #24588031 - 08/29/17 01:41 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I never figured it was a fix all solution, I just thought it was a step in the right direction, anything else is just stagnation.
I agree it's only a bandaid, several fundamental changes must take place, but a bandaid can stop the bleeding. :shrug:


--------------------
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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: qman] * 1
    #24588032 - 08/29/17 01:42 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
I mentioned rent controls based on income that would make a huge difference to many people.




That might be a good policy to supplement the lack of wage growth.



That coupled with proper universal healthcare would be a godsend to many people. I heard the argument that many people are forced to take jobs solely for the health insurance if we had a universal system entrepreneurship could rise as people would take more risks instead of being stuck in traditional corporate jobs.

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Registered: 11/11/09
Posts: 33,752
Loc: 'Merica Flag
Last seen: 4 hours, 54 minutes
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: qman] * 2
    #24588036 - 08/29/17 01:43 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
The fact that our inequality continues to grow more and more, one unprecedented level to the next, just goes to show that none of this is inherent.

The rich few dont have to own everything while the many suffer. Stop arguing against your own class' interests.




I'm not suggesting the inequality doesn't exist and that it's not a major problem, the debate begins with if many of these problems are structural in nature or if there's a quick policy fix.

I don't think hiking the minimum wage is a real solution to our structural problems of wealth and income inequality. I'm not against hiking it, but I think it's a wash at the end of the day.




Its not a real solution.

If i propose a real solution, like socialism, you say its unreasonable.

If I propose a moderate move away from inequality, you say its not enough.

:wtfsonic:


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OfflineTmethylM
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Registered: 07/16/12
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: The Ecstatic] * 1
    #24588047 - 08/29/17 01:46 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Socialism seems to be working in Texas right now.

:lol:


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: qman]
    #24588111 - 08/29/17 02:13 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Rent controls are not a solution to anything. Every place they have been imposed rental availability has dropped way down. Why would someone buy an apt building if the govt dictates how much rent you can charge and it looks like it will be tough making a profit? Why would anyone build it or improve existing rentals? You end up having to pay "key" money to the super at an apt complex to get higher up on the waiting list. The same thing happens anytime govt imposes price controls; availability goes way down and a black market springs up. In the case of housing, the black market is when you pay 2 or 3 months rent as a bribe just to get the place.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Posts: 33,752
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #24588147 - 08/29/17 02:28 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

"Why would anyone start a business if the govt can tell them how much they have to pay people?"

More bootlicking.


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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: The Ecstatic]
    #24588151 - 08/29/17 02:29 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Socialism seems to be working in Texas right now.

:lol:



Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
"Why would anyone start a business if the govt can tell them how much they have to pay people?"

More bootlicking.



If you can't afford to pay your staff a decent wage your a shit businessman.

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InvisibleCitizen X
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Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 7,853
Loc: Djibouti
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: qman] * 1
    #24588160 - 08/29/17 02:33 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Cyrus19 said:
Quote:

LRG said:
Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Again, this isnt about me, or any one person. Its about the fact that there simply isnt enough well paying jobs out there. And there won't ever be if we keep going down this path.





The difference between a well paying job,  minimum and even a medium wage job is experience, education, and effort.






I agree and people with more experience should make more. However someone working full time 40 hours a week should make enough to pay rent and buy food. This isn't the case now. Clearly thats a problem in fact corporations count on the government to subsidize there low wages most full minimum wage earners rely on food stamps. Something has to give either the companies need to step up and pay more or the state will step in prevent people from starving to death.




"someone working full time 40 hours a week should make enough to pay rent and buy food"

In 95% of the cases around the globe, this isn't possible, why would you think otherwise? 

"corporations count on the government to subsidize there low wages"

In some cases this is true, but most workers aren't employed by large corporations. 

"or the state will step in"

Isn't that what's already happening?  What happens will the state can't borrow anymore money to make up the difference?




Source for the 95% remark? I was just about to say
, in first world countries we are way behind. I don't have a source that's IME


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Offlineqman
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Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 16 hours, 29 minutes
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: Stonehenge]
    #24588170 - 08/29/17 02:36 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Rent controls are not a solution to anything. Every place they have been imposed rental availability has dropped way down. Why would someone buy an apt building if the govt dictates how much rent you can charge and it looks like it will be tough making a profit? Why would anyone build it or improve existing rentals? You end up having to pay "key" money to the super at an apt complex to get higher up on the waiting list. The same thing happens anytime govt imposes price controls; availability goes way down and a black market springs up. In the case of housing, the black market is when you pay 2 or 3 months rent as a bribe just to get the place.




"Rent controls are not a solution to anything"

It was referring to the government supplementing the difference, not landlords taking the hit.

It does always present a lot of other issues, most landlords don't like accepting tenants that need help paying the rent.

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InvisibleStonehenge
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Registered: 06/20/04
Posts: 14,850
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: qman]
    #24588239 - 08/29/17 03:08 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Oh I see, like section 8 which pays part or all of the rent. The good thing is that landlord gets paid, the bad thing is tenant is usually a dirtbag and they may say you have to lower the rent.

As less and less labor is needed to produce more and more goods, eventually there will only be jobs for a very few and handouts will be the norm. We will go through a tumultuous period before things stabilize. The chaos has not even begun.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755

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Offlineqman
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Posts: 34,927
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #24588269 - 08/29/17 03:20 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Oh I see, like section 8 which pays part or all of the rent. The good thing is that landlord gets paid, the bad thing is tenant is usually a dirtbag and they may say you have to lower the rent.

As less and less labor is needed to produce more and more goods, eventually there will only be jobs for a very few and handouts will be the norm. We will go through a tumultuous period before things stabilize. The chaos has not even begun.




Yeah, just wait until the bubbles (stock, bond, real estate and dollar) begin to deflate.

The US is in a big mess and the credit card option is no longer the free bailout for the insolvent governments.

Trump is going to wish he just stayed on the golf course and enjoyed his lifestyle. :lol:

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InvisibleCitizen X
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Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 7,853
Loc: Djibouti
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: Stonehenge] * 1
    #24588488 - 08/29/17 05:10 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Your solution to all problems seems to be invariably having the govt forcing others to do things that are counter productive to them. Why is that? Can you think of no other way to fix things besides govt coming in and using force?

>So maybe the real solution is to pass laws to force companies doing business in the U.S. to pay min wage to all their employees, regardless of what country they are in.

Lets just force the whole world to pay what we think is a fair wage? Sounds good to you?




The ongoing theme from you is clear my argument is, it just doesn't happen. So legislate it


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InvisibleCitizen X
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Registered: 01/19/14
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: qman] * 1
    #24588503 - 08/29/17 05:18 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

Stonehenge said:
Oh I see, like section 8 which pays part or all of the rent. The good thing is that landlord gets paid, the bad thing is tenant is usually a dirtbag and they may say you have to lower the rent.

As less and less labor is needed to produce more and more goods, eventually there will only be jobs for a very few and handouts will be the norm. We will go through a tumultuous period before things stabilize. The chaos has not even begun.




Yeah, just wait until the bubbles (stock, bond, real estate and dollar) begin to deflate.

The US is in a big mess and the credit card option is no longer the free bailout for the insolvent governments.

Trump is going to wish he just stayed on the golf course and enjoyed his lifestyle. :lol:




Another good topic. If people could afford moderate/low income housing on the min wage we wouldn't have to support the poor as much. We subsidise low wages


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InvisibleCitizen X
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Registered: 01/19/14
Posts: 7,853
Loc: Djibouti
Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: LRG]
    #24588757 - 08/29/17 06:34 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

LRG said:
Quote:

Tmethyl said:
And this Governor makes 70,000 - 150,000 a year not including bribes.
But he doesn't want anyone else making a living wage. :lol:




But what the average person who doesn't understand is this affects ALL businesses. Small businesses are destroyed by big increases in wages like this. Bringing how much a statesman earns is irrelevant. Nobody at McDonalds deserves to be paid $15 an hour plain and simple. Nobody making coffees at Starbucks or even at a corner cafe deserves to make $15 an hour. Minimum wage jobs require no skills, no experience, and are completely expendable. People who do make $15 an hour have skills, good experience, and are generally counted on for their company or workplace to succeed.

If I get paid $15 an hour I could very easily leverage my company to pay me more because I have an easy fall back at any fast food chain. It generates a huge bottleneck for your average 20-30 year old looking to learn a trade skill. Why would any of them choose a trade skill that dirty or hard over a piss easy job like McDonalds or even 7-11? Most of them likely wouldn't and would result in a substantial absence of trade skills like plumbers, electricians, masons, carpenters, welders etc.

Should the minimum wage be raised? Yea, but I also think it's worth looking into making a sort of minimum wage caste system. Where if you work at McDonalds you'd make 9.50 an hour, but as an apprentice with skills you might make $13 an hour. Not a popular idea, but it's better than allowing deadbeats and high school students to make $25000+ grand a year. They're deadbeats for a reason and that reason is not because the minimum wage is too low, they make bad choices.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Socialism isnt built on exploitation. Neither is communism, nor certain iterations of anarchism.

The problem with exploitation in capitalism is inherent. If i have the capital and you have the labor, its my goal to extract as much surplus value from that as possible. Theres no escaping this within capitalism.




Right... they only exploit the successful people by taking everything they own and giving it to everybody else, while also likely killing them because those people don't want their stuff taken. Like... name one socialist regime that didn't follow that exact formula. What you've said is so reprehensible I am almost at a loss of words...




@LRG I believe you hit it on the head. Pro-business, but not pro-people. Would you agree?


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Edited by Citizen X (08/29/17 06:35 PM)

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OfflineLRG
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: Citizen X]
    #24588839 - 08/29/17 07:03 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Citizen X said:
Quote:

LRG said:
Quote:

Tmethyl said:
And this Governor makes 70,000 - 150,000 a year not including bribes.
But he doesn't want anyone else making a living wage. :lol:




But what the average person who doesn't understand is this affects ALL businesses. Small businesses are destroyed by big increases in wages like this. Bringing how much a statesman earns is irrelevant. Nobody at McDonalds deserves to be paid $15 an hour plain and simple. Nobody making coffees at Starbucks or even at a corner cafe deserves to make $15 an hour. Minimum wage jobs require no skills, no experience, and are completely expendable. People who do make $15 an hour have skills, good experience, and are generally counted on for their company or workplace to succeed.

If I get paid $15 an hour I could very easily leverage my company to pay me more because I have an easy fall back at any fast food chain. It generates a huge bottleneck for your average 20-30 year old looking to learn a trade skill. Why would any of them choose a trade skill that dirty or hard over a piss easy job like McDonalds or even 7-11? Most of them likely wouldn't and would result in a substantial absence of trade skills like plumbers, electricians, masons, carpenters, welders etc.

Should the minimum wage be raised? Yea, but I also think it's worth looking into making a sort of minimum wage caste system. Where if you work at McDonalds you'd make 9.50 an hour, but as an apprentice with skills you might make $13 an hour. Not a popular idea, but it's better than allowing deadbeats and high school students to make $25000+ grand a year. They're deadbeats for a reason and that reason is not because the minimum wage is too low, they make bad choices.

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Socialism isnt built on exploitation. Neither is communism, nor certain iterations of anarchism.

The problem with exploitation in capitalism is inherent. If i have the capital and you have the labor, its my goal to extract as much surplus value from that as possible. Theres no escaping this within capitalism.




Right... they only exploit the successful people by taking everything they own and giving it to everybody else, while also likely killing them because those people don't want their stuff taken. Like... name one socialist regime that didn't follow that exact formula. What you've said is so reprehensible I am almost at a loss of words...




@LRG I believe you hit it on the head. Pro-business, but not pro-people. Would you agree?




I would, but they're both subjective. Not everyone benefits from socialism just like not everyone benefits from capitalism.

Socialists tote themselves as "for the people" but really they are only all about "their people." There's plenty of justified scrutiny towards capitalism. I'm just on the side that benefits from it, so that's why I have my bias towards it. There's benefits to both ideologies and IMO America has taken what could be considered the best parts of both.


--------------------
"I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey.

"It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle

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"Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous

"Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."

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OfflineThe Ecstatic
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: LRG] * 1
    #24588933 - 08/29/17 07:39 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Yeah socialists only want to nationalize the means of production for some people. :rolleyes:

If you have a functional democracy, you have functional socialism.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Republican Governor vetoes wage increase. Voting against your interests? [Re: Citizen X]
    #24588954 - 08/29/17 07:44 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

>my argument is, it just doesn't happen. So legislate it

Yes, exactly, just as I said. You have these ideas in your head you think are good because they sound good. The world does not agree and refuses to go along so your solution once again is to use govt to force business to do what is not in its best interest.

If there was something that was in the best interest of both the worker and the company, it would be discovered and implemented. But forcing business to pay more than a workers labor is worth means someone has to make up the difference. Unlike you I don't believe in santa any more so it has to be either the company loses money or the customers make up the different in the form of higher prices. The customers being the same ones who got an undeserved raise. So now they find the cost of their raise is being paid by themselves. What is the next step when forced raises don't work? More forced raises of course. But you dont want to hear it, you like the santa theory.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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