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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: qman]
    #24557971 - 08/16/17 11:28 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

SleepyE said:
nazis are definitely the aggressors.
but unfortunately the left have been punching reporters randomly, and the acts of vandalism towards statues which could be seen as aggressive behavior.
The problem with all this is these acts cause the left to lose the moral high ground a little and it gives more alt-right neo-nazis the permission to feel like the victim.

but the nazis are straight up delusional when they insist that the monster who rammed his car into the crowd and killed people acted in "self defense" its fucking absurd how many white supremacists on stefan molyneux's youtube channel were saying that nonsense.




"Nazis are definitely the aggressors"

What group was there first?  What group went there to counter protest?  It takes two to tangle.

Both groups were violent towards each other, that's a fact. :shrug:




If somebody hits back in self-defense, that is not considered being the aggressor. Who actually threw the FIRST punch?

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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: Crystal G]
    #24557994 - 08/16/17 11:39 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Crystal G said:
Quote:

qman said:
Quote:

SleepyE said:
nazis are definitely the aggressors.
but unfortunately the left have been punching reporters randomly, and the acts of vandalism towards statues which could be seen as aggressive behavior.
The problem with all this is these acts cause the left to lose the moral high ground a little and it gives more alt-right neo-nazis the permission to feel like the victim.

but the nazis are straight up delusional when they insist that the monster who rammed his car into the crowd and killed people acted in "self defense" its fucking absurd how many white supremacists on stefan molyneux's youtube channel were saying that nonsense.




"Nazis are definitely the aggressors"

What group was there first?  What group went there to counter protest?  It takes two to tangle.

Both groups were violent towards each other, that's a fact. :shrug:




If somebody hits back in self-defense, that is not considered being the aggressor. Who actually threw the FIRST punch?




I would say the first punches came from both sides.

Anyone who went to that protest that day knew exactly what they were getting into, very few were innocent victims on that day.

The "counter protesters" were letting the pepper spray fly around very causally that day. They were prepared for violence as well.

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OfflineTHT
Stranger

Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 249
Last seen: 2 months, 15 days
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: qman] * 2
    #24557998 - 08/16/17 11:40 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

You're wasting your time, Nazi. We know what you are and how to deal with your kind when you get out of control, and it sounds like the counter-protesters do too. Your position (and don't try to tell me you're all just hardcore history buffs) is simply not worth tolerating because it's ultimately about racism and enslavement. Gotta give you nazis some credit though, your little tiki-party terror attack definitely led to more racist traitors' monuments getting removed than would've happened otherwise. Thanks shitheads.

Now go along and continue being on the wrong side of history, maggot. Remember, we're ready for you...

Quote:

qman said:
Here, educate yourself.

"Yes, the Alt-left exist: Yes, it is violent"




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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: THT]
    #24558005 - 08/16/17 11:45 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Why don't you clean up your post before you get the  :bandeodorant:.

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InvisibleDieCommie

Registered: 12/11/03
Posts: 29,258
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: Patlal] * 3
    #24558010 - 08/16/17 11:47 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

It takes two to tangle.



...
Quote:

It also takes two to tango.




Trite phrases like this gloss over details.  They sound good, but are symptoms of intellectual laziness.

It doesnt really take two to tango, not in most cases of violence and not in this case.  Even the video qman put up to justify the claim of violence on both sides shows one-sided violence being perpetrated by the nazis.

What you are doing is victim blaming.  Its unfair and outright wrong.

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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: koods]
    #24558011 - 08/16/17 11:47 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Quote:

danielx said:
The same people showed up to that rally that have been showing up all these months. People love the chaos. Google search "Charlottesville protect pictures" you will see plenty of masked men with helmets on both sides ready for a fight. Go watch the video of the car hitting them and you will see multiple masked men with melee weapons attacking the car.

I wouldn't even be surprised if they surrounded and attacked the car first and he went into fight or flight mode. If he is just a terrorist over there wanting to kill people im pretty sure he could have done more damage then just driving forward and backward to get the fuck out of there.




You didn't watch the video. He took aim at the crowd from a block away and then hit the gas.

Can you imagine if someone said a Muslim terrorist who ran over two dozen people might have just been spooked by the crowd and feared for his life? There would be outrage but you are doing exactly the same thing and you should be ashamed that you are making excuses for a terrorist.




The guy went online before the incident asking about the legality of hitting protesters with a car. It was a pre-meditated, pre-planned, murderous attack. The driver was one of the marching Neo-Nazis, it's obvious he had intent to do that on purpose.

I've seen several videos of the incident, this one shows a good angle, from where the car started, you can see no protesters around the car at the beginning




Here's another one from another angle, as you can see there are two more cars where the protesters are hanging out, and none of the protesters are being violent with the other cars:



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Offlinekoods
Ribbit
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Registered: 05/26/11
Posts: 106,728
Loc: Maryland/DC Burbs
Last seen: 18 minutes, 52 seconds
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: Konyap] * 4
    #24558018 - 08/16/17 11:52 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Konyap said:
The slavery thing in the past was bad i'd argue
but the irish who came over here went through the same thing they were called indentured servents, and they couldn't do anything or go anywhere for two years




Yeah. That's exactly the same as you, your ancestors and decendants over a period of a century or more being the property of a family whose decendants will inherit as if you were jewelery. Your excess children would be sold off for profit to never been seen again

Jesus people are clueless around here


--------------------
NotSheekle said
“if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”

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OfflineCrystal G
I'm a teapot


Registered: 06/05/07
Posts: 19,584
Loc: outer space
Last seen: 10 months, 3 days
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: koods] * 2
    #24558029 - 08/16/17 12:00 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Konyap says a lot of things that don't make sense. I'm not sure he even knows what he's saying. Something's off about him.

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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,166
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: Crystal G] * 4
    #24558035 - 08/16/17 12:03 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I don't think that's an action you can defend. I have heard of a story where protesters blocked off the street and tried to break into a car that pulled up and attack the driver... Who ran over them. That's definitely self defense.


This is not.


The larger issue is what should be addressed. Not that one guy. He's obviously a piece of shit and in plenty of senses of justice he should probably be hanged.



Obviously it's not okay to defend racist shithead Nazis. But there were plenty of people defending BLM riots we had last year/the year before. How is that okay? right because they don't focus on skin color.

They kind of do though. They believe anyone not their skin color either directly supports them or is against them.
So... Not racist but racially motivated. There's a difference, sure... But does that difference actually make a difference in the outcome? if anything I think the BLM and other "liberal" extremists will actually grow stronger while alot of neo-Nazism has died out. Because that's obviously wrong. And ending racism is obviously right.

Easy peasy, simple shit.

... Only the actual problems aren't.

We have issues here in the U.S. and I fear all of us are fixating on all the wrong things. Probably for the wrong reasons.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:

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OfflineConnoisseur

Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 34,686
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: CookieCrumbs]
    #24558044 - 08/16/17 12:07 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

your a smart cookie :smile:

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InvisibleCyrus19
Represents Enlil's Hope

Registered: 02/24/17
Posts: 2,503
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: DieCommie]
    #24558072 - 08/16/17 12:21 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

It takes two to tangle.



...
Quote:

It also takes two to tango.




Trite phrases like this gloss over details.  They sound good, but are symptoms of intellectual laziness.





Qman intellectually lazy perish the thought :eek:

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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,166
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: Connoisseur] * 1
    #24558086 - 08/16/17 12:29 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Connoisseur said:
your a smart cookie :smile:



:lol: :hug:


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:

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OfflineTHT
Stranger

Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 249
Last seen: 2 months, 15 days
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: DieCommie]
    #24558096 - 08/16/17 12:33 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

It takes two to tangle.



...
Quote:

It also takes two to tango.




Trite phrases like this gloss over details.  They sound good, but are symptoms of intellectual laziness.





There's a name for a phrase like that: a platitude. Again, it's more than that though, it's framed purposefully to create a false equivalency between racist aggressors and the people trying to defend themselves from such.  Spoiler alert: the nazis/confederates/KKK/white-power ones are the aggressors. You know, just in case you thought for a second those were the good guys here.

Gotta love the "it's because they never listened to us" crowd. Even ineffectual liberal-types are generally good at listening--and believe me we've heard you--it's just that you aren't worth listening to. Frankly I think the left has done too much to capitulate to right-wingers and that's why this is even a contemporary conversation: they should've just eradicated all traces of the confederacy decades ago. It's amazing to think about how much further ahead america would probably be without those ugly vestiges of racist southern culture.

And the nazi wants me banned. What for, exactly? Swearing? I guess it's easier to whine to the mods than to look within and see the rot in oneself.

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OfflineConnoisseur

Registered: 05/13/11
Posts: 34,686
Last seen: 5 years, 4 months
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: THT] * 3
    #24558106 - 08/16/17 12:36 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

In these troubled times I believe it best to remember the wise words of uncle Aldous


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Offlineqman
Stranger

Registered: 12/06/06
Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: THT]
    #24558138 - 08/16/17 12:52 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

THT said:
Quote:

DieCommie said:
Quote:

It takes two to tangle.



...
Quote:

It also takes two to tango.




Trite phrases like this gloss over details.  They sound good, but are symptoms of intellectual laziness.





There's a name for a phrase like that: a platitude. Again, it's more than that though, it's framed purposefully to create a false equivalency between racist aggressors and the people trying to defend themselves from such.  Spoiler alert: the nazis/confederates/KKK/white-power ones are the aggressors. You know, just in case you thought for a second those were the good guys here.

Gotta love the "it's because they never listened to us" crowd. Even ineffectual liberal-types are generally good at listening--and believe me we've heard you--it's just that you aren't worth listening to. Frankly I think the left has done too much to capitulate to right-wingers and that's why this is even a contemporary conversation: they should've just eradicated all traces of the confederacy decades ago. It's amazing to think about how much further ahead america would probably be without those ugly vestiges of racist southern culture.

And the nazi wants me banned. What for, exactly? Swearing? I guess it's easier to whine to the mods than to look within and see the rot in oneself.




It's called flaming members, obviously the mods are giving you a free ride. I was just giving you a heads up to edit your post before they saw it to save you the trouble, apparently it didn't matter.

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InvisibleCookieCrumbsM
Fucked off to the pub
Female User Gallery

Registered: 12/10/11
Posts: 14,166
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: THT] * 4
    #24558150 - 08/16/17 01:02 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

A confederate is not a Nazi. A confederate is not the KKK.

A large majority of the confederate soldiers had no slaves at all.

Every confederate believed they were not represented in the union and had the right to break away from the rest of the states. They didn't believe it was traitorous because of a (possibly false) understanding of what the states are. A loose collection of self governing territories that came together for common purpose. They felt that purpose was not being served.


The racist idiots that wave the confederate flag and terrorize minorities are just as ignorant of many of the other people who believe the whole thing was about over coming the tyranny of slavery.
Both sides believed they were fighting tyranny.


The confederate flag was the Virginia battle flag. It was adopted by the confederate states that needed a symbol of unity that presented their ideals. Being that most of the presidents in the country and the first settlements and governing bodies in the country were Virginian it was an obvious choice.


Violence begets violence and ignorance perpetuates ignorance. Believing the whole thing was about racism and slavery defaces the reality of the symbol from both extreme sides. Both ignorant sides.


We have a tendency in our culture to punish the crimes of the few by sacrificing the whole. Destroying those symbols because fools have misinterpreted their meaning is a crime.

The meaning of the flag really is about heritage, and culture. A southern sense of honor stuck around for alot longer than it did in many other places. Many people use that symbol to pay homage to the honor of their ancestors and to recognize the ideal that we are free people that have the ability to fight any power over us if it does not represent us as it claims to.


And it's painfully obvious the American government doesn't represent us now. We just can't imagine doing anything about it because we've painted it out to be an evil thing. We've made it so that we can keep fighting eachother, but not actually challenge the ones that have any power to actually change anything. These ideas all fall back on to that 150 year old war.


We like to pretend we are that same country that lived in the light of its forefathers... But we are not.


--------------------
          :dancingbear: Free time is the only time :dancingbear:                    :thatsinteresting:

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Invisiblechicksgrowtoo
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Registered: 12/01/13
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Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: Asante]
    #24558163 - 08/16/17 01:07 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

It is both heartbreaking and embarrassing to know I came from a place where this kind of thinking is common. Glad I escaped.

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Offlineakira_akuma
Φύσις κρύπτεσθαι ὕψιστος φιλεῖ


Registered: 08/28/09
Posts: 82,455
Loc: Onypeirophóros
Last seen: 4 years, 2 months
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: DieCommie]
    #24558169 - 08/16/17 01:11 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

intellectual laziness?

it's intellectual laziness to think that berating people on the streets does anything but "inflame sensibilities".

something people would love to blame on Trump, simply because he is dumb and can't word right (like everyone else is so much better, rioting in the streets, and trying to block people from their free passage, because the police can't contain their asses,...or just won't. BUT they WILL ROUTE THE ALT-RIGHT PROTESTS/MARCH. INDEED.)

the left and the right are getting out of control. thing is, i don't see the right provoking people daily on the streets. like some rioting retards, that just don't quit.

Quote:

Connoisseur said:
In these troubled times I believe it best to remember the wise words of uncle Aldous





yes, just like Jordan B. Peterson's "crusade" against "postmodernism" (postmodernism being something long since over with, but he's not clear-headed enough to see that- and he spreads his crusade to many an ill-headed person, who believe that without reverting back to classical art, the illuminati will keep killing babies for Moloch.

(Con, you...you like this, don't you? hehehehe  :confused3:

Edited by akira_akuma (08/16/17 01:17 PM)

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Offlineqman
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Posts: 34,927
Last seen: 11 hours, 19 minutes
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24558201 - 08/16/17 01:26 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)


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OfflineTHT
Stranger

Registered: 09/18/12
Posts: 249
Last seen: 2 months, 15 days
Re: The Vice News coverage of Charlottesville is chilling. [Re: qman]
    #24558203 - 08/16/17 01:27 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Good food for thought, Connoisseur. Yes, we don't want to become the monster we fight, but there's a lot at stake when we let poisoned ideology creep into our society. I always think back to the following quotation:

"Unlimited tolerance must lead to the disappearance of tolerance. If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them. In this formulation, I do not imply, for instance, that we should always suppress the utterance of intolerant philosophies; as long as we can counter them by rational argument and keep them in check by public opinion, suppression would certainly be most unwise. But we should claim the right to suppress them if necessary even by force; for it may easily turn out that they are not prepared to meet us on the level of rational argument, but begin by denouncing all argument; they may forbid their followers to listen to rational argument, because it is deceptive, and teach them to answer arguments by the use of their fists or pistols. We should therefore claim, in the name of tolerance, the right not to tolerate the intolerant. We should claim that any movement preaching intolerance places itself outside the law, and we should consider incitement to intolerance and persecution as criminal, in the same way as we should consider incitement to murder, or to kidnapping, or to the revival of the slave trade, as criminal." -Karl Popper


Now I know I could present my arguments more coolly, but there are still people alive who know why Nazism and similarly-intolerant ideologies have zero place at the table: they've proven themselves incompatible with human rights and decency. It's not a gross misinterpretation to say that they strive for unity at the cost of genocide--because they have--and that's messed up.

I appreciate you taking the time to state your position Cookie, but that heritage and culture carries a whole lot of baggage, and I'm not really sure that it should even be celebrated. I mean, Germany doesn't celebrate its Nazi heritage despite how passionate they once were with it.  We call the enemies of the Confederate the Union, but they were also fighting "abolitionists" and for the right to enslave. You can't just pretend systemic racism and slavery weren't part of the lifeblood of southern culture. Do you think it's worth keeping that alive if it means we also have to stoke the coals of that dormant racism? I don't think that we can have it both ways...

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