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Offlineblackout
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‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved
    #24553639 - 08/14/17 04:23 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

http://cen.acs.org/articles/95/web/2017/08/Magic-mushroomenzyme-mystery-solved.html

Quote:

‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved
Researchers unravel the biosynthesis of the psychoactive drug psilocybin, making large-scale production a possibility
By Stephen K. Ritter

The euphoria and hallucinations induced from eating Psilocybe “magic mushrooms” have earned the fungi a cult following. Sandoz chemist Albert Hofmann isolated and determined the structure of psilocybin, the main ingredient in mushrooms that leads to the psychedelic effects, nearly 60 years ago. That discovery and subsequent mind-altering experiments by Harvard University psychologist Timothy F. Leary have left scientists longing to develop a large-scale synthesis of the compound for medical uses, which include treating anxiety and depression in terminal cancer patients and treating nicotine addiction. Yet no one has been able to unravel the enzymatic pathway the mushrooms use to make psilocybin, until now.
Janis Fricke, Felix Blei, and Dirk Hoffmeister of Friedrich Schiller University Jena have identified and characterized to the greatest extent so far the four enzymes that the mushrooms use to make psilocybin. The team then developed the first enzymatic synthesis of the compound, setting the stage for its possible commercial production (Angew. Chem. Int. Ed. 2017, DOI: 10.1002/anie.201705489).
During their study, Hoffmeister and coworkers sequenced the genomes of two mushroom species to identify the genes that govern fungal enzymatic production of psilocybin. They further used engineered bacteria and fungi to confirm the gene activity and exact order of synthetic steps. This process includes a newly discovered enzyme that decarboxylates tryptophan, an enzyme that adds a hydroxyl group, an enzyme that catalyzes phosphorylation, and an enzyme that mediates two sequential amine methylation steps. With that knowledge in hand, the team designed a one-pot reaction using three of the enzymes to prepare psilocybin from 4-hydroxy-L-tryptophan.
Medicinal chemist Courtney Aldrich of the University of Minnesota, Twin Cities, praises Hoffmeister and his coworkers for their painstaking efforts to elucidate the biosynthesis of psilocybin. “Our knowledge of the biosynthesis of fungal natural products has lagged behind our understanding of the corresponding bacterial biosynthetic pathways owing to a number of unique challenges,” Aldrich says. These include greater genome complexity in fungi compared with bacteria, many fungi are still not amenable to genetic manipulation, and cultivating fungi to produce sufficient amounts of desired metabolites is not always straightforward. “The new work lays the foundation for developing a fermentation process for production of this powerful psychedelic fungal drug, which has a fascinating history and pharmacology,” Aldrich adds.
“The publication by Hoffmeister and colleagues highlights a terrific example of genomics-based biocatalyst-pathway discovery,” adds natural products researcher Jon S. Thorson of the University of Kentucky. “While psilocybin biosynthesis derives from a series of fairly simple chemical transformations, this new study identifies the contributing genes and biocatalysts for the first time and, importantly, provides strong evidence to support a revision of the order of the key steps proposed more than five decades ago. This work clearly sets the stage for bioengineered psilocybin production and/or for analogs that may serve as compelling alternatives to existing synthetic strategies.”



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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: blackout]
    #24553721 - 08/14/17 04:58 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

:awesomenod:

How long until we have synthetic bacteria for farming Psilicybin?

Imagine trading various strains of genetically engineered organisms for mass producing psilocybin :crazy2:

Would be crazy to see something similar applied to DMT and LSA or even mescaline.


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Edited by musiclover420 (08/14/17 04:58 PM)

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OfflineTheHulk69
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: musiclover420]
    #24553777 - 08/14/17 05:19 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I  mean don't get me wrong... This is pretty rad.

But isn't it kinda silly? I mean growing clean mushrooms is fairly easy.

Though I suppose extracting psilocybin from them is a bit more nuanced.. I suppose a "pharmaceutical" psilocybin has better research potential, and ease of dosage

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Offlinemusiclover420
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: TheHulk69]
    #24553822 - 08/14/17 05:36 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

It could be useful for research too perhaps.

They could make bacteria or fungi that produces higher concentrations of specific chemicals.

Like psilocin or psilocybin as well as baeocybin and whatever that other one is :lol:


--------------------
Don't worry about me, I've got all that I need. And I'm singing my song to the sky

You know how it feels, With the breeze of the sun in your eyes. Not minding that time's passing by

I've got all and more, My smile, just as before. Is all that I carry with me

I talk to myself, I need nobody else. I'm lost and I'm mine, yes I'm free


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InvisibleInspir3
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: musiclover420]
    #24553835 - 08/14/17 05:40 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Love having a friend in med school, just got the official manuscript. This article is charging just to view that shit lol.


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Offline24sevenZed
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Inspir3]
    #24553968 - 08/14/17 06:29 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

What I find more interesting about this is that it could allow one to develop knock out methods for these enzymes in, e.g. Psilocybe Cubensis, and to finally trade Cubensis (and other psilocybe) cultures legally.

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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #24554154 - 08/14/17 07:26 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

The line that caught my attention was the one that said "an enzyme that mediates two sequential amine methylation steps."  This infers that there is the potential for a wholly enzymatic synthesis of dimethyltryptamine (DMT).  Would love to read the paper that sets THAT process out in detail.  :super:


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InvisibleInspir3
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Nature Boy]
    #24554189 - 08/14/17 07:36 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
The line that caught my attention was the one that said "an enzyme that mediates two sequential amine methylation steps."  This infers that there is the potential for a wholly enzymatic synthesis of dimethyltryptamine (DMT).  Would love to read the paper that sets THAT process out in detail.  :super:



meaning it allows step 2 to go to step 4, skipping 3?


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Invisible36fuckin5
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #24554303 - 08/14/17 08:09 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

24sevenZed said:
What I find more interesting about this is that it could allow one to develop knock out methods for these enzymes in, e.g. Psilocybe Cubensis, and to finally trade Cubensis (and other psilocybe) cultures legally.




Why is that interesting? The only cool things about Psilocybes are that they're active. Take that away and they're not worth eating.


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i recommend common sense and figuring it out.

These are the TEKs I use. They're all as cheap and easy as possible, just like your mom.

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Offline24sevenZed
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: 36fuckin5]
    #24554492 - 08/14/17 09:31 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

36fuckin5 said:
Why is that interesting? The only cool things about Psilocybes are that they're active. Take that away and they're not worth eating.




I think cubensis is probably the most widely grown (by amateurs) mushroom in the world second only to Oysters (I doubt it). The accumulated knowledge available on the Shroomery for this species alone is incredible. Imagine if that knowledge could be utilized by people who just want to learn about mushrooms without all the legal bullshit?

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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: 24sevenZed] * 1
    #24554611 - 08/14/17 10:29 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

it would also be a great high yielding culinary mushroom if it had the active part broken. It doesn't taste bad when prepared properly for cuisine.

with this breakthru give it a few years before you can have beer yeast make psilocybin/psilocin at home with a CRISPR kit or similar.

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Nature Boy] * 1
    #24554636 - 08/14/17 10:46 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

24sevenZed said:
What I find more interesting about this is that it could allow one to develop knock out methods for these enzymes in, e.g. Psilocybe Cubensis, and to finally trade Cubensis (and other psilocybe) cultures legally.





And to sell them in grocery stores!  They are delicious cooked.

Quote:

Nature Boy said:
The line that caught my attention was the one that said "an enzyme that mediates two sequential amine methylation steps."  This infers that there is the potential for a wholly enzymatic synthesis of dimethyltryptamine (DMT).  Would love to read the paper that sets THAT process out in detail.  :super:




http://sci-hub.bz/10.1002/anie.201705489

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OfflineNature Boy
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Inspir3] * 1
    #24554845 - 08/15/17 01:21 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Inspir3 said:
Quote:

Nature Boy said:
The line that caught my attention was the one that said "an enzyme that mediates two sequential amine methylation steps."  This infers that there is the potential for a wholly enzymatic synthesis of dimethyltryptamine (DMT).  Would love to read the paper that sets THAT process out in detail.  :super:



meaning it allows step 2 to go to step 4, skipping 3?




Geez. Ok, I'll spell it out. Start with tryptamine. Add enzyme.  Get  dimethyltryptamine (DMT).  Folks have been trying to find a way to encourage mushrooms to manufacture the related molecule DMT for years. Now there's apparently a synthetic enzymatic way to add two methyl groups to psilocybin which could quite possibly be extended to manufacture DMT in prodigious amounts without extracting from MHRB.  Remember, psilocybin is O-phosphoryl-4-OH-DMT!!!


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Edited by Nature Boy (08/15/17 01:29 AM)

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Offline24sevenZed
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #24554880 - 08/15/17 01:59 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Alan, thanks for the link. From the paper:

Quote:

Our results therefore imply that 2 (Psilocin) may not be a true substrate en route to 1 (Psilocybin). Given that PsiK readily turns over 2 (Psilocin) to 1 (Psilocybin), we propose that this activity represents a protective mechanism to rephosphorylate the instable 2 to the stable 1 in case of intracellular ester cleavage




Maybe I'm reading too much into that, but I find that to be nearly as interesting as the biosynthesis result itself. It suggests the evolutionary role of psilocybin is at least important enough for mushrooms to actually repair it as it breaks down.

I wonder if there are similar enzymes to repair, say, amatoxins, in poisonous species.

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OfflineWiiiiilson
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #24555010 - 08/15/17 05:27 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Im sure there would be enzymes to repair other things like amatoxins. Such things probably exist in the fungal tissues as a deterrent or delirant to help prevent predation, or attract foraging organisms to help spread the spores and tissue - so the fungi has an evolutionary 'interest' in maintaining these metabolites.

An exciting prospect from this research is a PCR to detect these enzymes and give instant confirmation of active species vs non-actives. I've seen papers that use a PCR for a non coding satellite repeat region from psilocybe species to detect 'relatedness' - which correlated well with psychoactivity, but not a direct PCR for the enzymes responsible for psychoactive metabolite production.

I could whip up a set of PCR primers to detect these enzymes - it wouldn't be hard. You could then get genetic confirmation that something is active!

There are very likely to be homologues of these enzymes throughout the fungal kingdom with slightly different activity - perhaps ones with dual functions, or which modify different groups, or which modify the same groups with greater or lesser activity than these. This is exciting!


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Wiiiiilson]
    #24555141 - 08/15/17 07:37 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiiiiilson said:
An exciting prospect from this research is a PCR to detect these enzymes and give instant confirmation of active species vs non-actives. I've seen papers that use a PCR for a non coding satellite repeat region from psilocybe species to detect 'relatedness' - which correlated well with psychoactivity, but not a direct PCR for the enzymes responsible for psychoactive metabolite production.





Since the ability to produce psilocybin only evolved once and spread to various genera via horizontal gene transfer, that would be possible, and I intend to do it as soon as I get an anotated full genome sequence of an active species.    I don't think it would detect all actives though - it would just tell you if the DNA code to produce psilocybin was there.  I think many non-actives would also have this code in the genome, but deactivated do  to a small change somewhere else in the genome.  It still would be interesting to be able to screen for the presence of these genes with a simple PCR and electrophoresis assay.

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InvisibleIbex-Trismegistus
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 2
    #24555234 - 08/15/17 08:34 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I say this is great, though the method starting from 4-acetoxyindole which is converted to 4-acetoxyindol-3-yl-N,N-dimethylglyoxylamide, which is then added dropwise to LAH in THF with stirring, and reflux is then maintained for a short time, then the mixture is cooled and the reaction is quenched with some water containing a small amount of THF. The reaction is then filtered under an inert atmosphere (N2), and the collected solids are washed, then the filtrate and lashings are combined and stripped of solvent, the resulting residue is then distilled, the solid distillate is then re-crystallized giving psilocin, while it has it's flaws and setbacks, really is not that bad.

Early synthesis of psilocin/psilocybin would use O-benzyl ether as a protecting group, which provides some further stability as far as intermediates, but also requires the extra step of reductive debenzylation, so, it would be 4-hydroxyindole to 4-benzyloxyindole through the sodium salt with benzoyl chloride, which is converted to 4-benzyloxyindole-3-glyoxylchloride with oxalyl chloride, the 4-benzyloxyindole-3-glyoxylchloride is then converted to  4-benzyloxy-3-(N,N-dimethyl-glyoxamide with dimethylamine. Then using LAH in dioxane 4-benzyloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine is produced brining us to the final step where the 4-benzyloxy-N,N-dimethyltryptamine is converted to 4-hydroxy-N,N-Dimethyltryptamine using hydrogen with a Pd catalyst on Al2O3.

Conversion to psilocybin from the last method only requires two additional steps, though there really does not seem to be much reason to do so.

Anyway, an enzymatic synthesis would be a bit more simple and could lead to larger scale production.

...

Someone asked about doing this with DMT...

the biosynthetic pathway for DMT starts with tryptophan which is decarboxylated (amino acid decarboxylase) to tryptamine, this tryptamine is then methylated by indole amine methyl transerase (INMT) in conjunction with S-Adenosyl methionine (SAM) (which is where the methyl group donation comes from), which becomes S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine (SAH) as it donates the methyl group to the amine nitrogen of the tryptamine, giving N-methyl-tryptamine, which is again methylated by SAM in conjunction with INMT (the SAM becoming SAH as it donates the methyl group to the amine nitrogen of the N-methyl-tryptamine) giving N,N-Dimethyltryptamine.

In TIHKAL in the "DMT is everywhere" chapter shulgin mentions a hypothetical method for enzymatic synthesis of DMT
Shulgins method would use INMT and would work by constantly reconverting SAH to back to SAM, and then the SAM would constantly be becoming SAH as it donates methyl groups to tryptamine and N-Methyl-tryptamine, ultimately giving DMT...

Quote:

what a fabulous black box that would make. Get two enzyme preperations, one that can methylation s-adenosyl-homocysteine to S-adenosyl-methionine and another that can regenerate s-adenosyl-homocysteine by transferring a methyl group to the available amine. Two catalysts in a chamber heated to 37°c, with a spigot adding tryptamine at the top and another releasing DMT out the bottom. That's the science, I'll leave the details to the engineers.

-shulgin; TIHKAL; DMT is everywhere chapter





I did a pretty bad job here, too many distractions while writing all this, no motivation to edit it.


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OfflineWiiiiilson
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 1
    #24555367 - 08/15/17 09:43 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Alan, I tried looking for the actual sequence but there is no accession listed in the paper and there are no full genomes for P. cubensis on Genbank yet, which is quite suspicious for a published paper. They dont even list any of the primers they used in the paper to make their clones. It makes me wonder how it passed review really - all we have is their word.

I was curious to know if this operon was on a mobile element - which is why I was searching for the sequence. Do you know if it actually is passed by HGT?
I didn't know that HGT was possible in higher fungi. Do they have plasmids and conjugative transposons too?

I suppose I should just google it, but Im interested to hear what you have to say.


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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Wiiiiilson] * 1
    #24555476 - 08/15/17 10:35 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiiiiilson said:
Alan, I tried looking for the actual sequence but there is no accession listed in the paper and there are no full genomes for P. cubensis on Genbank yet, which is quite suspicious for a published paper. They dont even list any of the primers they used in the paper to make their clones. It makes me wonder how it passed review really - all we have is their word.




Some reviewers / journals require GenBank submissions, others do not.  I can't find it in GenBank either.



Quote:


I was curious to know if this operon was on a mobile element - which is why I was searching for the sequence. Do you know if it actually is passed by HGT?





This information comes from a talk at MSA a year ago.  The paper on that has not yet been published, and what is known about it is here:  https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/23524081

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Offlineorison
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #24555551 - 08/15/17 11:13 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

seen on reddit, didnt even bother to read it there. come here first. :awehigh:


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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: orison]
    #24555788 - 08/15/17 01:25 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I've heard about this for fungus making morphine, this could really fuck with the drug war if wine making fungus could create large amounts of highly valuable chemicals. Mainly morphine would change the game because mushies are easy to grow, spores got overlooked and hopefully the government doesn't think it's worth the effort to criminalize the spores

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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: fractalgod] * 1
    #24555793 - 08/15/17 01:26 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Criminalize them all they want people still send actual drugs through the mail. Legal or not spore prints won't have a big issue getting moved around

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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #24556424 - 08/15/17 06:16 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Interesting stuff - but again, no solid molecular biology to look at there (the link in the year old post just says 'permission denied').
I imagine that the transfer of this operon between species is probably through homologous recombination when two compatible strains enastamose in culture, rather than by the transmission of a plasmid - otherwise I would expect psilocybin producing fungi to be far more common.

Like you said in the older thread, it would be interesting to see a comparison of the operon across the 3 or 4 species they sequenced to see how well conserved it is and get some evidence for HGT.

In any case, it makes me wonder how hard it is to cross a non-active with a compatible active and get a new active species?
They are genetically quite distinct, so it probably wouldn't work, but imagine crossing cubes with oysters and getting a super fast growing active oyster!

If it could be demonstrated with one active non-active pair, you could use a phylogenetic tree to choose a series of species to breed and gain the psilocybin genes until you have it in a faster growing species like Oyster.
Or king oysters! Big fat active kings!


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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Wiiiiilson]
    #24557359 - 08/16/17 06:06 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Nice read and great to see some insightful comments here. Is it known how psilocybin and its related analogues function in magic mushrooms? What purpose do they serve?

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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Warrk]
    #24557506 - 08/16/17 07:35 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Well as their names suggest, L-tryptophan decarboxylase is specialized to the role of decarboxylating L-tryptophan. A homolog of this may be a decarboxylase of a different, similar substrate - probably a different amino acid like tyrosine, for use in a different pathway.

Kinases are common - they add phosphates to other molecules. Phosphorylation is important in all sorts of signalling pathways (various environmental sensors and stress responses).

S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAM)-dependent N-methyltransferases are involved in methylation of other molecules. Methylation is important for regulation of gene expression. In humans, methylation is typically associated with gene silencing. Too much or unregulated demethylation can cause cancer, so they're pretty important and pretty common.

Monooxygenases I don't know about really, but wiki says that they add -OH groups to other molecules and are involved in a wide variety of metabolic pathways. The addition of an -OH to a signalling molecule can deactivate it.

It makes you wonder then, if psilocybin isn't some sort of signalling molecule? Perhaps it helps in detecting physical damage to the fruit body (the bluing when you bruise the mushroom), as it is caused by rapid oxidation - it would probably be a decent indicator of cellular damage? Who knows.

Life is very complex!


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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Wiiiiilson]
    #24557558 - 08/16/17 08:01 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)



even enzamatically there are several ways which this could be potentially  done...

Still have not looked at the article, I have issues opening certain links on this device, but it sounds like the article was garbage any way.


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I've noticed that when people are joking they're usually dead serious, and when they're serious, they're usually pretty funny.-Jim Morrison

'Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.-Confucius —

When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system’s game. The establishment will irritate you – pull your beard, flick your face – to make you fight. Because once they’ve got you violent, then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don’t know how to handle is non-violence and humor.”― John Lennon

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InvisibleIbex-Trismegistus
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Ibex-Trismegistus]
    #24557584 - 08/16/17 08:10 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiiiiilson said:
Well as their names suggest, L-tryptophan decarboxylase is specialized to the role of decarboxylating L-tryptophan. A homolog of this may be a decarboxylase of a different, similar substrate - probably a different amino acid like tyrosine, for use in a different pathway.

Kinases are common - they add phosphates to other molecules. Phosphorylation is important in all sorts of signalling pathways (various environmental sensors and stress responses).

S-adenosyl-L-methionine (SAM)-dependent N-methyltransferases are involved in methylation of other molecules. Methylation is important for regulation of gene expression. In humans, methylation is typically associated with gene silencing. Too much or unregulated demethylation can cause cancer, so they're pretty important and pretty common.

Monooxygenases I don't know about really, but wiki says that they add -OH groups to other molecules and are involved in a wide variety of metabolic pathways. The addition of an -OH to a signalling molecule can deactivate it.

It makes you wonder then, if psilocybin isn't some sort of signalling molecule? Perhaps it helps in detecting physical damage to the fruit body (the bluing when you bruise the mushroom), as it is caused by rapid oxidation - it would probably be a decent indicator of cellular damage? Who knows.

Life is very complex!




AADC = amino acid decarboxylase
INMT= indole amine methyl transferase

the biosynthetic pathway for DMT starts with tryptophan which is decarboxylated (amino acid decarboxylase; AADC ) to tryptamine, this tryptamine is then methylated by indole amine methyl transerase (INMT) in conjunction with S-Adenosyl methionine (SAM) (which is where the methyl group donation comes from), which becomes S-Adenosyl-L-homocysteine (SAH) as it donates the methyl group to the amine nitrogen of the tryptamine, giving N-methyl-tryptamine, which is again methylated by SAM in conjunction with INMT (the SAM becoming SAH as it donates the methyl group to the amine nitrogen of the N-methyl-tryptamine) giving N,N-Dimethyltryptamine.

For psilocybin this DMT could be enzymatically oxidized and subjected to enzymatic phosphorylation giving psilocin then psilocybin.

Though if you look at the grid, this is only one of several potential biosynthetic pathways.


--------------------
I've noticed that when people are joking they're usually dead serious, and when they're serious, they're usually pretty funny.-Jim Morrison

'Before you embark on a journey of revenge, dig two graves.-Confucius —

When it gets down to having to use violence, then you are playing the system’s game. The establishment will irritate you – pull your beard, flick your face – to make you fight. Because once they’ve got you violent, then they know how to handle you. The only thing they don’t know how to handle is non-violence and humor.”― John Lennon

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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Wiiiiilson]
    #24557616 - 08/16/17 08:25 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Warrk said:
Is it known how psilocybin and its related analogues function in magic mushrooms? What purpose do they serve?




No.  Does not appear to serve any function - however not everything in nature serves a function, useless traits can stick around if they don't cause the organism to expend too much work.

Quote:

Wiiiiilson said:
Interesting stuff - but again, no solid molecular biology to look at there (the link in the year old post just says 'permission denied').




They took the page down because the conference is over - however all of the information on this subject that was available is in the thread.


Quote:


It makes you wonder then, if psilocybin isn't some sort of signalling molecule? Perhaps it helps in detecting physical damage to the fruit body (the bluing when you bruise the mushroom), as it is caused by rapid oxidation - it would probably be a decent indicator of cellular damage? Who knows.

Life is very complex!




If it is for signalling, it would appear that it's not a needed signal, as they don't seem to do anything with the information. 



Quote:

In any case, it makes me wonder how hard it is to cross a non-active with a compatible active and get a new active species?
They are genetically quite distinct, so it probably wouldn't work, but imagine crossing cubes with oysters and getting a super fast growing active oyster!

If it could be demonstrated with one active non-active pair, you could use a phylogenetic tree to choose a series of species to breed and gain the psilocybin genes until you have it in a faster growing species like Oyster.
Or king oysters! Big fat active kings!




To cross mushroom species, they need to be pretty closely related.  I think you would have a hard time getting the genes out of Psilocybe.

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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #24557748 - 08/16/17 09:45 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Alan Rockefeller said:
Quote:

Warrk said:
Is it known how psilocybin and its related analogues function in magic mushrooms? What purpose do they serve?




No.  Does not appear to serve any function - however not everything in nature serves a function, useless traits can stick around if they don't cause the organism to expend too much work.






Thank you for your reply AR. I guess I've had the structure-function dogma drummed into me for so long that I naturally assume there is a function to every biological molecule. When I think a bit deeper the very idea of "function" and the more problematic "adaptation" when viewed against the backdrop of the theory of evolution by means of natural selection makes this a very interesting discussion!

I agree with your statement that not everything in nature serves a function. It could also be that certain traits or "structures" might be neutral to an organism now as far as fitness is concerned but this might have been different in the past and could be different in the future?

The idea that feathers "evolved" before birds (or dinosaurs) could fly is interesting.

If psilocybin arose only once (and not multiple times independently) and through horizontal gene transfer came to be found and expressed in a number of mushroom species, this would seem to suggest there is something about psilocybin that bestows an advantage to individuals. Maybe gene-knockout experiments could help us identify what this advantage is.

Coincidentally, a friend told me about this recently discovered psychedelic lichen that contains psilocybin, a very nice read:

http://psychedelicfrontier.com/new-species-lichen-dictyonema-huaorani/

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OfflineWiiiiilson
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Alan Rockefeller]
    #24557767 - 08/16/17 09:55 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Ibex - read the paper man. They tested a few different routes and found that with these enzymes, it's 4 steps. The paper isnt bad, I just find a suspicious lack of detail. It says it's a communication though, not a full article - perhaps there is more to come soon.

Alan - As for psilocybin as a potential (completely hypothetical) signalling molecule, how can you say that they don't seem to do anything with the information? That seems like a gross simplification. Not everything is obvious from the macroscopic level and not everything has a massive effect. It may not be necessary for survival of it's host, but that's not to say that it doesn't have some other benefits to the mushroom. Signalling molecule was a wild stab. Here's some more - potential antioxidant, precursor to another compound, metabolite of some other process, foraging attractant? It has to offer some benefit otherwise the operon would not survive.

Crossing species - I'm not saying you could go straight from cubes to oysters, I'm saying you could (albeit very slowly and with a lot of luck) cross closely related species in series until you eventually get it into something more vigorous. Have a look at the phylo tree in the article you linked from your colleagues PhD thesis:
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/nrc/journals/content/cjb/2013/cjb.2013.9109/cjb-2013-0070/20130903/images/large/cjb-2013-0070f4.jpeg

There could be enough genetic similarity between psilocybes and say...Hebeloma.. for a cross. Look how closely gyms and galerina are - There's probably already some active galerina, but it wouldnt be useful.
There's very likely more genera that aren't included in the table which would bridge the gap between the actives in the top hlaf of the tree and the Strophariaceae in the lower half.


--------------------
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OfflineAlan RockefellerM
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Wiiiiilson]
    #24557820 - 08/16/17 10:26 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Wiiiiilson said:
The paper isnt bad, I just find a suspicious lack of detail. It says it's a communication though, not a full article - perhaps there is more to come soon.




I think the paper is pretty good.  Kind of short, hopefully they'll keep publishing and upload their sequences to GenBank.

Quote:

Alan - As for psilocybin as a potential (completely hypothetical) signalling molecule, how can you say that they don't seem to do anything with the information?




Because most mushrooms do just fine without psilocybin, and I don't notice any differences between species that have tryptamines and those that lack them, other than blue staining.


Quote:

Here's some more - potential antioxidant, precursor to another compound, metabolite of some other process, foraging attractant? It has to offer some benefit otherwise the operon would not survive.




Those are all possible, but also remember that evolution is random, and the operon won't be selected against unless it's costly to the organism to have.

Quote:

Crossing species - I'm not saying you could go straight from cubes to oysters, I'm saying you could (albeit very slowly and with a lot of luck) cross closely related species in series until you eventually get it into something more vigorous. Have a look at the phylo tree in the article you linked from your colleagues PhD thesis:
http://www.nrcresearchpress.com/na101/home/literatum/publisher/nrc/journals/content/cjb/2013/cjb.2013.9109/cjb-2013-0070/20130903/images/large/cjb-2013-0070f4.jpeg




I think you could get the gene into other Psilocybes that lack it (Like P. turficola), but jumping into a non-Psilocybe species is where there might be issues, since other genera aren't very close to Psilocybe.

Quote:

There could be enough genetic similarity between psilocybes and say...Hebeloma.. for a cross.





Hebeloma is mycorrhizal, I do not think they would cross.  But definitely give it a try.



Quote:

Look how closely gyms and galerina are - There's probably already some active galerina, but it wouldnt be useful.




There are active Galerina.


Quote:

There's very likely more genera that aren't included in the table which would bridge the gap between the actives in the top hlaf of the tree and the Strophariaceae in the lower half.




Probably - but Psilocybe is more off by itself.

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Offline24sevenZed
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Alan Rockefeller] * 1
    #24558597 - 08/16/17 04:25 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I heard recently (from Dr. David Nichols, of all people, on a podcast called "Smart Drug Smarts", episode 176 ) that many non-mammal, lower organisms have 5HT-2* receptors, which suggests at least one major purpose for most natural hallucinogens in plants and fungi.

Also, in the MSA talk you mentioned Alan the author had this to say in summary:

Quote:


These analyses suggest a psilocybin
cluster origin in Agaricales by horizontal transfer of
multiple genes from Atheliales, and a horizontal
cluster transfer from dung-inhabiting Psilocybe to
Panaeolus. The patterns of dispersal of this cluster
may reflect at least one role for psilocybin as a defense
against mycophagous invertebrates.





Everything seems to point to defense, at least with respect to other "soil dwelling" organisms. Putting dates on the origins of these genes might allow us to figure out where mammals fit in, and I'm willing to bet would actually elucidate more about the evolution of our minds with respect to ecology than the evolution of mushrooms in response to humans.

Edited by 24sevenZed (08/16/17 04:33 PM)

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Offlineleschampignons
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: 24sevenZed]
    #24571456 - 08/22/17 10:35 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Fascinating article and discussion. I hadn't even considered the possibility of knockouts or PCR to identify actives.

I came here from this thread

As far as the role of psilocybin, my best guess would be that it exists to deter predation. Many active mushrooms inhabit areas where animals (particulaly mammals) are present - grasslands/praries in ruminant dung, riparian ecosystems.

I would imagine getting a hefty dose of psilocybin would be quite disconcerting for a cow or horse that had eaten some :mushroom2:. Probably wouldn't do that again..

edit: also psilocybin is a serotonin analogue and serotonin in high doses promotes gastric motility in many animals (even simple ones like slugs). perhaps this could confer a selective advantage by causing spores to be quickly sent through animal digestive tracts such that they are not digested and can survive and grow in the animals dung. Serotonin is present in panaeolus, including pan foes.


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Edited by leschampignons (08/22/17 10:39 AM)

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OfflinePsilocybeater112
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: leschampignons]
    #24573780 - 08/23/17 08:12 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

This thread :heart:


--------------------
"We know a tremendous amount about what is going on in the heart of the atom, but we know absolutely nothing about the nature of the mind."



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InvisibleWarrk
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Psilocybeater112]
    #24587110 - 08/29/17 04:42 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Magic mushroom chemical may be a hallucinogenic insect repellent

By Josh Gabbatiss

The hallucinogenic effects of magic mushrooms are well documented. But nobody knows what psilocybin, the chemical responsible, does for the mushrooms themselves.

Now, one of the first genomic analyses of hallucinogenic fungi has deciphered psilocybin production, and even suggested a function for it. By messing with insect neurochemistry, psilocybin may act as a psychedelic repellent.

The gene cluster is found in several distantly related groups, suggesting that the fungi swapped genes in a process called horizontal gene transfer. This is uncommon in mushrooms: it is the first time genes for a compound that is not necessary for the fungi’s survival –  called a secondary metabolite – have been found moving between mushroom lineages.

Since these genes have survived in multiple species, Slot thinks psilocybin must be useful to the fungi. “Strong selection could be the reason this gene cluster was able to overcome the barriers to horizontal gene transfer,” he says.

Hallucinogenic mushrooms often inhabit areas rich in fungi-eating insects, so Slot suggests psilocybin might protect the fungi, or repel insects from a shared food source, by somehow influencing their behaviour.

The specific purpose of many secondary metabolites is unknown, says Peter Spiteller at the University of Bremen, Germany. But that’s not to say they don’t have a use. “Secondary metabolites are not just produced for fun,” he says.

However, while psilocybin has been shown to affect the brains of mammals including mice, there is little evidence that it affects insects or other invertebrates – barring a famous 1962 study showing that it changes the way spiders build webs.

That said, other fungi use similar substances to influence insects, “for example the zombie ant fungus,” says Slot. And insects have nervous system receptors similar to those affected by the psilocybin successor molecule psilocin in humans.

In a second study, a group led by Dirk Hoffmeister at Friedrich Schiller University Jena in Germany was able to go one step further. After obtaining a legal permit, they have developed a way to make psilocybin using enzymes (Angewandte Chemie, doi.org/gbp6hh).

This has never been done before and could set the stage for commercial production. In recent years there has been a revival of interest in psilocybin’s potential as a therapeutic drug, an area of research that had stalled due to tough 1970s drug laws.

https://www.newscientist.com/article/2144832-magic-mushroom-chemical-may-be-a-hallucinogenic-insect-repellent/

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OfflineWiiiiilson
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Warrk]
    #24587276 - 08/29/17 07:46 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Mmm I saw that too.
My only qualm is that the gyms I've picked have mostly been packed full of worms.
That's not to say that there aren't other factors.
The worms in the gyms may have evolved over time to be able to metabolise psilocin and baeocystin, thus carving themselves a niche where their food is safe from other insects feeding (possibly even allowing them to mature to flies without predation from spiders etc)
The other factor is that gyms are much lower in psilocybin than other actives - so it might just be that these worms can handle the lower levels?

It does sound like a very reasonable theory though, and wouldn't be hard to test.


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InvisiblebodhisattaMDiscordReddit
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Re: ‘Magic mushroom’ enzyme mystery solved [Re: Wiiiiilson]
    #24587505 - 08/29/17 09:40 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Bugs love psilocybes tho

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