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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Crimea * 3
    #24552980 - 08/14/17 11:12 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I am now in Crimea - staying in the beautiful resort town of Yalta (yes THAT Yalta).  I'm posting about my trip in the political forum because of the heavy politics involved here.

First of all, I noticed that the Shroomery lists my location flag as Ukraine, but this place is CLEARLY not Ukraine (more to follow).

I'll start with a few photos of Crimea - from the places I've already visited:


Crimea: A picturesque tourist spot you won't be visiting anytime soon


Swallow's Nest - Listed by National Geographic as the first of 20 Must See Places in the world.



Livadia Palace in Yalta - where Roosevelt, Churchill, and Stalin met to shape a post WWII peace.



Yalta at Dusk - a booming tourist town


Although the West still pretends Crimea belongs to Ukraine, it is very clearly a Russian territory.  If you try to enter Crimea from Ukraine, as required by Ukrainian law, there is a very long wait as a result of a Ukrainian (not Russian) checkpoint.  Ukraine clearly wants to discourage its own people from entering 'their own' country.

If you fly into Crimea from Russia (as I did), it is considered a domestic flight and there is no customs/security to go through upon entering - you simply get off the plane and leave the airport.

Ukraine says it is illegal to enter Crimea by any route other than from Ukraine, and if they learn you've entered Crimea by another route (as I did) they will ban you from Ukraine for 5 years.  But luckily for me, they'll never know I've been to Crimea because Russia never stamped my passport because they considered it a domestic flight.  :smirk:

The people here are VERY CLEARLY pro Russian, as Crimea has historically been a Russian territory until Khrushchev transferred it from Russia to Ukraine in 1954.  The local population speaks Russian rather than Ukrainian, many private homes and businesses display the Russian flag, and every business has a website ending in ".ru".  The locals I've spoken with told me Crimea has gone downhill since the breakup of the Soviet Union, but things have gotten better now as Russia is pouring money into the local economy.

Unfortunately, nearly all of the tourism comes from Russia, as Crimea is sanctioned by most of the rest of the world.  International companies had to close their branches here because their company would get in trouble if they didn't, and international cruises had to stop coming here for the same reason as well.

My cell phone is blocked here by my own country, and my credit cards are rejected here as well.  It's a good thing I brought a lot of cash with me from Moscow (for that very reason).  The US makes it as difficult as possible for its travelers, as it probably doesn't want its citizens to tell the story of what's really going on here, in the hope that the vast majority remain ignorant and believe the propaganda they are given.

I can only laugh with the locals as the US tries to restrict my travel, while Russian citizens can travel wherever they like without restrictions.  Crimean citizens are now guaranteed 32 days of paid leave per year as required by the Russian constitution, which also allows a steady flow of tourists from the rest of Russia who need to use up their vacation days.  The standard of living here has gone up, and they have no desire to return to Ukraine, whose economy has tanked since the US orchestrated coup.

I'll be here until Friday, and if there's any questions I can answer before I leave, I'll do my best.  Wednesday I visit the military town of Sevastopol.  I hope the US doesn't pull any more crazy shit while I'm there.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (08/14/17 01:44 PM)


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Offlineqman
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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #24553019 - 08/14/17 11:35 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Wow, beautiful photos! Enjoy the rest of your trip. :thumbup:


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Re: Crimea [Re: qman] * 2
    #24553062 - 08/14/17 11:56 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

looks like an awesome place to drop a tab and go sight seeing.

have fun, fal!


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Re: Crimea [Re: relic] * 2
    #24553265 - 08/14/17 01:38 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Fal has turned into a full time Putin propagandist.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: relic] * 1
    #24553287 - 08/14/17 01:51 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Thanks guys.  Yalta is a party town, where people come to have fun!  As I said, most people here are on vacation, and the beach has a carnival like atmosphere (it literally has carnival rides, games, and tons of things to do).  The beaches are packed with bathers, as the weather here is very warm.  The nearby mountains are gorgeous.  A fun place to visit should we ever lift the sanctions.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: koods] * 2
    #24553293 - 08/14/17 01:55 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Fal has turned into a full time Putin propagandist.



You're a full time "I believe anything Hillary tells me, even if it's not supported by evidence" (see your signature).

Please tell me what I said above that you believe is false or even misleading.

:popcorn:


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: koods] * 1
    #24554700 - 08/14/17 11:31 PM (2 years, 10 months ago)

No response?  How disappointing...  I was looking forward to this discussion.


--------------------
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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24555276 - 08/15/17 08:59 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

why do you hate america so much?


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: Mad_Larkin] * 3
    #24555345 - 08/15/17 09:32 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

:lolwut:

Dude, I served in the US military 8 years (plus 4 years of military school).  I own a great home in the San Francisco Bay Area which I love.  What are you even talking about???


--------------------
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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24555604 - 08/15/17 11:38 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Shroomery flag says Ukraine.


--------------------


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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24555608 - 08/15/17 11:42 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Fal, make a "Discord of Labels, ANTIFA warfare = NAZI warfare" thread.

it'll be popular.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24566654 - 08/20/17 04:56 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

I'm back in Moscow after my 6 day trip to Crimea.  Here's some final thoughts:

- It is VERY clear that the Crimean people, with the exception of the Tatars, strongly support being part of Russia.  I spoke with dozens of random people, and not one said they wanted to go back to Ukraine.  Even the Tatars I spoke with said they are making more money under Russian rule.

- The sanctions have forced all international companies out of Crimea.  There is no McDonalds, Walmart, Monsanto, etc in Crimea.  Since the country is full of Russian tourists, this actually allows local businesses to thrive.

- Many people here have voluntarily told me they will fight to keep Crimea under Russia.  They refuse to accept Ukrainian rule.  Something interesting to understand as we continue the debate Crimea's future.

- No one here disputes the results of the Crimean referendum; not even the Tatars.  The vote to separate from Ukraine was by far the most heavily attended election in Crimea's history.  Everyone is proud of standing in long lines to vote about this.

- If you wish to travel to Crimea, don't go through Ukraine.  You will be stopped in 10-13 hour lines at the border by Ukrainian security trying to keep their own people out of 'their own' country.  Fly in from Russia instead (or take the bridge Russia is building that will be completed in another year or two).  Also bring plenty of cash because your credit cards won't work here, nor will your cell phones.

Again, I'm happy to answer any questions anyone may have about my trip.  It's a fun place to visit, and believe it or not, the people love Americans.




Here's a few photos of other places I visited:


Ai Petri peak with a great view of the Crimean coast





Sevastopol Harbor - a Russian Naval town that's now open to the general public





A formerly top secret nuclear hardened submarine base under a mountain near Sevastopol (decommissioned after the breakup of the Soviet Union)





Yalta beach (yes, it was crowded with Russian tourists)


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24566662 - 08/20/17 05:08 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

"Sevastopol Harbor - a Russian Naval town that's now open to the general public"
The REAL reason for annexation right there.

access to world domination by sea.
bueno.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24566742 - 08/20/17 07:03 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

:awesomenod:  The REAL reason the US orchestrated the coup in Ukraine.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24566776 - 08/20/17 07:17 AM (2 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:awesomenod:  The REAL reason the US orchestrated the coup in Ukraine.




100% wouldn't disagree.


Edited by Cinnamon (08/20/17 07:18 AM)


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25145729 - 04/17/18 01:50 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
If you fly into Crimea from Russia (as I did), it is considered a domestic flight and there is no customs/security to go through upon entering - you simply get off the plane and leave the airport.

Ukraine says it is illegal to enter Crimea by any route other than from Ukraine, and if they learn you've entered Crimea by another route (as I did) they will ban you from Ukraine for 5 years.  But luckily for me, they'll never know I've been to Crimea because Russia never stamped my passport because they considered it a domestic flight.  :smirk:




Looks like Russia just upgraded Simferopol International Airport (in the center of Crimea) to a modern world class airport from the one Ukraine had before.  The new bridge to connect mainland Russia with Crimea is set to partially open by early May, way ahead of schedule (for the few of you interested in non-US centric news).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25145762 - 04/17/18 02:10 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
modern world class airport from the one Ukraine had before.  The new bridge to connect mainland Russia with Crimea is set to partially open by early May, way ahead of schedule (for the few of you interested in non-US centric news).



Cool.  Now they don't have to deploy riggers and shit in order to move tanks onto the peninsula.  Plus redundancy, and whatnot.  :shrug:


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Re: Crimea [Re: Cinnamon]
    #25145766 - 04/17/18 02:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
"Sevastopol Harbor - a Russian Naval town that's now open to the general public"
The REAL reason for annexation right there.

access to world domination by sea.
bueno.



Not world domination.  Just the Black Sea.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: chibiabos]
    #25145776 - 04/17/18 02:16 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Cool.  Now they don't have to deploy riggers and shit in order to move tanks onto the peninsula.



I don't recall your position on Crimea, but you do realize there was never any fighting in Crimea itself, right?  The fighting was (is) all in Eastern Ukraine (mostly Donbass).


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25145797 - 04/17/18 02:34 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

chibiabos said:
Cool.  Now they don't have to deploy riggers and shit in order to move tanks onto the peninsula.



I don't recall your position on Crimea, but you do realize there was never any fighting in Crimea itself, right?  The fighting was (is) all in Eastern Ukraine (mostly Donbass).



Yes, and the Russians were trying to drive a wedge in between Odessa an Kiev but didn't really have enough momentum to make it quite there without overextending themselves, owing to the fact that the only way into Ukraine was through their own Western frontier.  Did you happen to, perhaps, ever look at a map of the area while you were in the Crimea and notice anything about how the major roads are laid out (especially relative to Russian and Ukranian troop dispositions and the location of major ports on the Northern Black Sea)?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/5-33/ch5.pdf


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Re: Crimea [Re: chibiabos]
    #25145813 - 04/17/18 02:46 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
modern world class airport from the one Ukraine had before.  The new bridge to connect mainland Russia with Crimea is set to partially open by early May, way ahead of schedule (for the few of you interested in non-US centric news).



Cool.  Now they don't have to deploy riggers and shit in order to move tanks onto the peninsula.  Plus redundancy, and whatnot.  :shrug:




Do they have a Cinnabon at the Simferopol airport? I'm not going to take Pravda91s word for it.


Edited by koods (04/17/18 02:46 PM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: koods]
    #25145818 - 04/17/18 02:49 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Falcon is a product of RT.  Pravda was a lot more nuanced than RT is.  RT really doesn't give a shit if their translations even have a veneer of honesty, which is to say that they'll translate "da" as "no" (even if the guy saying it is nodding his head).


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: chibiabos]
    #25145845 - 04/17/18 03:04 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
the Russians were trying to drive a wedge in between Odessa an Kiev but didn't really have enough momentum to make it quite there without overextending themselves, owing to the fact that the only way into Ukraine was through their own Western frontier.



I don't know what you're talking about.  Can you provide a link that explains?

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Did you happen to, perhaps, ever look at a map of the area while you were in the Crimea and notice anything about how the major roads are laid out (especially relative to Russian and Ukranian troop dispositions and the location of major ports on the Northern Black Sea)?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/5-33/ch5.pdf



I still have no idea what you're talking about.  Can you explain?

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Falcon is a product of RT.



Actually I travelled to Crimea so I'm a product of reality.  If RT reflects reality, then so be it.  You're clearly just a product of Faux News.


--------------------
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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Crimea [Re: koods]
    #25145853 - 04/17/18 03:09 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Do they have a Cinnabon at the Simferopol airport? I'm not going to take Pravda91s word for it.



I doubt it, as didn't see a single western company in Crimea while I was there, as the US Government has banned American companies from Crimea.


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (04/17/18 05:19 PM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25145908 - 04/17/18 03:36 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

chibiabos said:
Did you happen to, perhaps, ever look at a map of the area while you were in the Crimea and notice anything about how the major roads are laid out (especially relative to Russian and Ukranian troop dispositions and the location of major ports on the Northern Black Sea)?

https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/policy/army/fm/5-33/ch5.pdf



I still have no idea what you're talking about.  Can you explain?



A map is a picture that tells you where things are.


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Re: Crimea [Re: chibiabos]
    #25145950 - 04/17/18 03:54 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Once again, you said "the Russians were trying to drive a wedge in between Odessa an Kiev but didn't really have enough momentum to make it quite there without overextending themselves, owing to the fact that the only way into Ukraine was through their own Western frontier."  CAN YOU PROVE THIS WITH A LINK?

And once again, you talked about a map of the area showing how major roads are laid out.  DO YOU HAVE THIS MAP, or just a link to a generic field service manual that has absolutely nothing to do with Ukraine?


--------------------
I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them.  People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25146432 - 04/17/18 07:11 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

Again, I'm happy to answer any questions anyone may have about my trip.




did you have any of that wild, passionate, outdoor sex you're so fond of while you were in crimea?



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

It's a fun place to visit, and believe it or not, the people love Americans.






oops.  i guess this answers my question.


ps, outdoor sex rules.


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Re: Crimea [Re: relic] * 1
    #25146551 - 04/17/18 08:03 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

The sex I had in Crimea was indoor.  It was just too crowded for outdoor sex.  :blush:


--------------------
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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25146826 - 04/17/18 09:45 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Since this is the active Russia propaganda thread, I just wanted to say that Russia has poorly designed balconies because notable people keep falling off of them.

Putin totally didn't have this guy thrown out of his 5th story apartment.


--------------------
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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25146884 - 04/17/18 10:13 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Once again, you said "the Russians were trying to drive a wedge in between Odessa an Kiev but didn't really have enough momentum to make it quite there without overextending themselves, owing to the fact that the only way into Ukraine was through their own Western frontier."  CAN YOU PROVE THIS WITH A LINK?

And once again, you talked about a map of the area showing how major roads are laid out.  DO YOU HAVE THIS MAP, or just a link to a generic field service manual that has absolutely nothing to do with Ukraine?



You've been bragging about how much more you know about the region than the rest of us, and you really don't know how to find a fucking map of the region?  Ye gods, man... :facepalm:


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Re: Crimea [Re: koods]
    #25146894 - 04/17/18 10:16 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

koods said:
Since this is the active Russia propaganda thread, I just wanted to say that Russia has poorly designed balconies because notable people keep falling off of them.

Putin totally didn't have this guy thrown out of his 5th story apartment.



He wrote a story saying that Russian mercenaries were "killed in Syria on 7 February in a confrontation with US forces".

So you think the CIA killed him to cover up the story?!?  There's no reason Russia would care about that story.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25146908 - 04/17/18 10:24 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
You've been bragging about how much more you know about the region than the rest of us, and you really don't know how to find a fucking map of the region?  Ye gods, man... :facepalm:



Of course I can find a map, why are you behaving like a kindeegartner?  I'm asking you to back up your story, which you haven't done.

Let's try again:

You said "the Russians were trying to drive a wedge in between Odessa an Kiev but didn't really have enough momentum to make it quite there without overextending themselves, owing to the fact that the only way into Ukraine was through their own Western frontier."  Can you prove they were trying to drive a wedge in between Odessa and Kiev?

I have a map of Crimea.  WHAT DO YOU WANT TO SHOW ME ON THE MAP?


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25146946 - 04/17/18 10:47 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

koods said:
Since this is the active Russia propaganda thread, I just wanted to say that Russia has poorly designed balconies because notable people keep falling off of them.

Putin totally didn't have this guy thrown out of his 5th story apartment.



He wrote a story saying that Russian mercenaries were "killed in Syria on 7 February in a confrontation with US forces".

So you think the CIA killed him to cover up the story?!?  There's no reason Russia would care about that story.




The CIA director was fucking bragging about it at his confirmation for Secretary of State. Nice coverup.




You really aren't that great at spin. It's pretty laughable TBH.


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Re: Crimea [Re: koods] * 1
    #25146989 - 04/17/18 11:14 PM (2 years, 2 months ago)

That was weeks after the incident.  :whatever:

Russia reported the casualties within days after the incident:

Quote:

Bloomberg News quoted Russian sources as saying as many as 200 Russian nationals could have been killed in a clash last Wednesday and Thursday




You gotta do a little better than "DURR, PUTIN!!!"  :shrug:


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25646890 - 11/29/18 03:50 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Although the West still pretends Crimea belongs to Ukraine, it is very clearly a Russian territory.  If you try to enter Crimea from Ukraine, as required by Ukrainian law, there is a very long wait as a result of a Ukrainian (not Russian) checkpoint.  Ukraine clearly wants to discourage its own people from entering 'their own' country.

If you fly into Crimea from Russia (as I did), it is considered a domestic flight and there is no customs/security to go through upon entering - you simply get off the plane and leave the airport.



Welp, if you want to visit Crimea, you can no longer do it from Ukraine:

Kiev bans foreigners from entering Crimea
Quote:

All non-Ukrainians will be barred from entering Crimea from the Ukrainian land border, according to border guards cited by AP. It is still possible to fly into Crimea from Russia or to enter via the bridge from Russia's south, though Ukraine claims that is a violation of its borders.




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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25647066 - 11/29/18 05:15 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Do you feel good about supporting Russian imperialism?

Putin himself eventually admitted that the 'polite people' who appeared across Crimea before the referendum were Russian troops.

96.77% voted for yes. You know what votes get 95%+ majorities? Fixed votes. We already know that Russian military was occupying Crimea at this point. Do you think fair and democratic votes occur under military occupation?

And isn't it convenient that only two months after annexation, a law was passed where incitement of violation of territorial integrity of the Russian Federation (incl. calls for secession of Crimea from Russia) was made illegal? No wonder there isn't much talk against Russian annexation in Crimea.

And isn't it just super convenient that Crimea holds incredible strategic importance with access to military ports for Russia's Black Sea fleet?

And then Russia's recent action of blockading access to the sea of Azov? How you can deny the imperialist behaviour of Putin's Russia.

I'm against US imperialism too, but I don't let this opposition lead me to supporting imperialism from Americas opposition. Colour me disappointed.


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25647149 - 11/29/18 06:14 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I honestly doubt that Russia is going to outright try and take over the country right now.  Not that they probably wouldn't like to, but it's more realistic to just either capture ports like Odessa or just blockade them.  If they push hard enough then maybe they'll even manage to cut Kiev off from Ukraine's entire Black Sea coast.  :shrug:

Either way, the troops are massing at their respective frontiers.


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25647279 - 11/29/18 07:41 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

My sister in law is Ukrainian and she says the Crimeans are glad they’re not a part of Ukraine.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25647305 - 11/29/18 07:54 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
My sister in law is Ukrainian and she says the Crimeans are glad they’re not a part of Ukraine.



Of course Crimeans are glad - they're mostly ethnic Russians whose economy shot through the roof after rejoining Russia, while Ukraine's economy tanked after ousting their elected leader.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25647377 - 11/29/18 08:25 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Gorgeous pictures, man! Did you get to tour Livadia?


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25647396 - 11/29/18 08:35 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Crimeans are mostly ethnic Russians because of forced deportations of the indigenous Crimean Tartars under the Stalin regime. I agree that ethnic Russians likely support Russian annexation.

On the other hand, the minority population of Crimean Tartars is mostly opposed to Russian annexation, and in response there has been a documented wave of repression since Russian annexation.

UN Human Rights: Press briefing notes on Crimean Tatars

Human Rights Watch: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies


Just because you are opposed to American/Western imperialism, doesn't mean you need to support or turn a blind eye to Russian imperialism.


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25647460 - 11/29/18 09:14 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Crimeans are mostly ethnic Russians because of forced deportations of the indigenous Crimean Tartars under the Stalin regime. I agree that ethnic Russians likely support Russian annexation.

On the other hand, the minority population of Crimean Tartars is mostly opposed to Russian annexation



I know.  I spoke with the Crimean Tatars in Crimea and wrote about it here.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Just because you are opposed to American/Western imperialism, doesn't mean you need to support or turn a blind eye to Russian imperialism.





Tell us more about Russian "imperialism" post WWII.  :popcorn:


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25647464 - 11/29/18 09:19 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Gorgeous pictures, man!



Thanks buddy!

Quote:

The Ecstatic said:
Did you get to tour Livadia?



Yes, I visited and toured every place in my photos.


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (11/29/18 09:40 PM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25647548 - 11/29/18 09:58 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I know.  I spoke with the Crimean Tatars in Crimea and wrote about it here.



Well, seeing as how your op made no reference to Crimean Tartars, and included statements like "The people here are VERY CLEARLY pro Russian, as Crimea has historically been a Russian territory until Khrushchev transferred it from Russia to Ukraine in 1954", I'm sure you can understand why I would feel that you are spreading pro-Russian propaganda that diminishes both historical and current human rights violations faced by the Tartars.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Tell us more about Russian "imperialism" post WWII.  :popcorn:



If imperialism is defined as major powers using force (military, economic, diplomatic) to subordinate weaker states to their interests, than I don't think it is very controversial to consider Russian actions in Georgia, Chechnya, East Ukraine, and Crimea to constitute imperialism.


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25647598 - 11/29/18 10:26 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
I know.  I spoke with the Crimean Tatars in Crimea and wrote about it here.



Well, seeing as how your op made no reference to Crimean Tartars, and included statements like "The people here are VERY CLEARLY pro Russian, as Crimea has historically been a Russian territory until Khrushchev transferred it from Russia to Ukraine in 1954", I'm sure you can understand why I would feel that you are spreading pro-Russian propaganda that diminishes both historical and current human rights violations faced by the Tartars.



The reason I said that is because 96% of population wanted to rejoin Russia.  To me that's "VERY CLEARLY pro Russian".  Not even the Tatars I spoke with disputed the election results; they know that they only make up a small fraction of the population.

And as you now saw, I DID talk about the human rights violations under Stalin.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Tell us more about Russian "imperialism" post WWII.  :popcorn:



If imperialism is defined as major powers using force (military, economic, diplomatic) to subordinate weaker states to their interests, than I don't think it is very controversial to consider Russian actions in Georgia, Chechnya, East Ukraine, and Crimea to constitute imperialism.



1.  The Georgian war was started by Georgia, and Russia never took a square inch from Georgia.  Don't tell me you think they weren't powerful enough.
2.  Chechnya belonged to Russia since WWII.  How do you have imperialism over your own country?
3.  Russia never took East Ukraine.  Which was very unfortunate for the Eastern Ukrainians who are now being killed by Ukrainians.
4.  Here's the story on Crimea:

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Crimea had been a Russian territory since 1783, until Khrushchev transferred it to Ukraine in 1954 (without the approval of the Crimean people).  Russia has had a naval base in Crimea since 1783, which has always been under Russian control through today.

In 2014, there were a series of violent events in Ukraine culminating in the coup of Ukraine’s democratically elected President.

The US was quick to back the new leader who was pro-US and anti-Russian, and there is indesputable evidence (a recording by Victoria Nuland stating who the US would put in charge after Viktor Yanukovych's ouster) showing the US helped orchestrate the coup.  Russian speaking Eastern Ukraine (especially the Donbass region) and Crimea wanted nothing to do with the new undemocratic Government and they both wanted to separate.

The Autonomous Republic of Crimea held a referendum, and overwhelmingly voted to go back to Russia.  Russia accepted Crimea back; however, Eastern Ukraine had to stay with Ukraine.

There were no military casualties in Crimea, as the people there predominantly wanted to rejoin Russia.  However there was (and still is) a great deal of conflict in Donbass between Western Ukraine and the Russian separatists.

Russia’s naval base in Crimea has great significance to both the US and Russia, as it is Russia’s only warm water naval port.  The US was hoping to snatch it for NATO, in violation of a 1990 promise not to expand NATO beyond Germany.  Meanwhile, Russia believes illegal coups orchestrated by foreign governments aren't legitimate, and the Autonomous Republic of Crimea therefore had a right to vote to leave.


I welcome any corrections by anyone to anything I've said above, and I can provide evidence for everything I've stated as well.




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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25647640 - 11/29/18 11:05 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
1.  The Georgian war was started by Georgia, and Russia never took a square inch from Georgia.  Don't tell me you think they weren't powerful enough.
2.  Chechnya belonged to Russia since WWII.  How do you have imperialism over your own country? See how much sense this makes?
3.  Russia never took East Ukraine.  Which was very unfortunate for the Eastern Ukrainians who are now being killed by Ukrainians.
4.  Here's the story on Crimea:



1. Yes someone had to make the first official shot, but that ignores the wider context of Russia-Georgia relations. Russia didn't have to take an inch of soil because supporting South Ossetia and Abkhazia serves Russian interests in the region without requiring official annexation.
2. Hawaii belonged to the USA since WWII. How do you have imperialism over your own country? See how much sense this makes?
3. Again, a country does not need to physically and openly take over sovereign territory to subvert a weaker state to their interests. Support of pro-Russian rebels and the presence of unofficial military sufficiently served Russian interests in the region.
4. Your story completely leaves out the presence of Russian military forces in Crimea before any referendum. The entire referendum happened under, at best, suspicious circumstances, and to downplay this as Russia protecting democracy really only serves to reveal your pro-Russian bias. Just because they oppose US imperialism doesn't excuse their own actions.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And as you now saw, I DID talk about the human rights violations under Stalin.



Interesting phrasing. Am I to interpret this as you stating that human rights violations aren't occurring under Putin?


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25647661 - 11/29/18 11:32 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
1.  The Georgian war was started by Georgia, and Russia never took a square inch from Georgia.  Don't tell me you think they weren't powerful enough.



1. Yes someone had to make the first official shot, but that ignores the wider context of Russia-Georgia relations. Russia didn't have to take an inch of soil because supporting South Ossetia and Abkhazia serves Russian interests in the region without requiring official annexation.



So having amicable relations with your neighbors is imperialism?  "I do not think it means what you think it means"

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
2.  Chechnya belonged to Russia since WWII.  How do you have imperialism over your own country?



2. Hawaii belonged to the USA since WWII. How do you have imperialism over your own country? See how much sense this makes?



Exactly, you can't have imperialism by its very definition.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
3.  Russia never took East Ukraine.  Which was very unfortunate for the Eastern Ukrainians who are now being killed by Ukrainians.



3. Again, a country does not need to physically and openly take over sovereign territory to subvert a weaker state to their interests. Support of pro-Russian rebels and the presence of unofficial military sufficiently served Russian interests in the region.



What interests are being served by Russia protecting Russian citizens there?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
4.  Here's the story on Crimea:



4. Your story completely leaves out the presence of Russian military forces in Crimea before any referendum.



WRONG.  Let me quote myself for you:  "Russia has had a naval base in Crimea since 1783, which has always been under Russian control through today."

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The entire referendum happened under, at best, suspicious circumstances, and to downplay this as Russia protecting democracy really only serves to reveal your pro-Russian bias.



How can Russia protecting democracy serve to reveal a pro-Russian bias?  I can see how being against democracy reveals your anti Russia bias.


Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
And as you now saw, I DID talk about the human rights violations under Stalin.



Interesting phrasing. Am I to interpret this as you stating that human rights violations aren't occurring under Putin?



No, you are to interpret this as me stating that imperialism isn't occurring under Putin.


Edit:  Please look up the definition of imperialism before responding.  Thanks!


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (11/29/18 11:38 PM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25647732 - 11/30/18 01:03 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So having amicable relations with your neighbors is imperialism?  "I do not think it means what you think it means"



C'mon man, I see you call out qman for being dishonest in debate. You seem educated in geopolitical matters in this area, don't pretend like you don't know that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are considered sovereign territory of Georgia by the vast majority of the international community; and Georgia considers this land to be under Russian occupation. Is providing military support to separatist movements having amicable relations?



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What interests are being served by Russia protecting Russian citizens there?



Same interests that the USA has in protecting pro-EU/NATO Ukrainian citizens there.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
WRONG.  Let me quote myself for you:  "Russia has had a naval base in Crimea since 1783, which has always been under Russian control through today."



This makes no mention of the unidentified military forces that appeared throughout Crimea before any referendum was held, which were eventually admitted to have been Russian military. Why leave this fact out?



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How can Russia protecting democracy serve to reveal a pro-Russian bias?  I can see how being against democracy reveals your anti Russia bias.



Because it was a vote that occurred under Russian military occupation, yet you make no mention of this important fact. That selective reporting reveals a pro-Russian bias.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
No, you are to interpret this as me stating that imperialism isn't occurring under Putin.


Edit:  Please look up the definition of imperialism before responding.  Thanks!



So then why, in response to me saying "you are spreading pro-Russian propaganda that diminishes both historical and current human rights violations faced by the Tartars", you replied "I DID talk about the human rights violations under Stalin."

Why focus exclusively on Stalin, a historical name, at the expense of human rights violations occurring now under Putin?

UN Human Rights: Press briefing notes on Crimean Tatars

Human Rights Watch: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies


PS, here's your definition:

Quote:

im·pe·ri·al·ism

/imˈpirēəˌlizəm/

noun

noun: imperialism

a policy of extending a country's power and influence through diplomacy or military force.





Are you really telling me that imperialism isn't occurring under Putin?


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25647801 - 11/30/18 02:40 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So having amicable relations with your neighbors is imperialism?  "I do not think it means what you think it means"



C'mon man, I see you call out qman for being dishonest in debate. You seem educated in geopolitical matters in this area, don't pretend like you don't know that South Ossetia and Abkhazia are considered sovereign territory of Georgia by the vast majority of the international community; and Georgia considers this land to be under Russian occupation.



Why not tell the full story then if you want intellectual honesty?  South Ossetia and Abkhazia both declared their independence from Georgia after the break up of the Soviet Union.  Georgia didn't want to let them go (much like Britain didn't want to let the American colonies go).  The west sided with Georgia, Russia didn't.  Fighting broke out, and Russia went in as peacekeepers.  Not sure that peacekeeping is imperialism, but I see your argument.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
What interests are being served by Russia protecting Russian citizens there?



Same interests that the USA has in protecting pro-EU/NATO Ukrainian citizens there.



I agree.  Not imperialism to me either, but I see your argument.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
"Russia has had a naval base in Crimea since 1783, which has always been under Russian control through today."



This makes no mention of the unidentified military forces that appeared throughout Crimea before any referendum was held, which were eventually admitted to have been Russian military. Why leave this fact out?



Because it was irrelevant to the vote.  Almost no one in Crimea even knew they were there.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
How can Russia protecting democracy serve to reveal a pro-Russian bias?  I can see how being against democracy reveals your anti Russia bias.



Because it was a vote that occurred under Russian military occupation



Again, irrelevant to the vote.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
you are to interpret this as me stating that imperialism isn't occurring under Putin.



So then why, in response to me saying "you are spreading pro-Russian propaganda that diminishes both historical and current human rights violations faced by the Tartars", you replied "I DID talk about the human rights violations under Stalin."



Because that's what I talked about in a thread that's over a year old before we ever had this discussion.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25647819 - 11/30/18 03:29 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

As mentioned above, I don't think a lot of the examples are imperialism, but I see your arguments.

However, there is one thing that is unquestionably imperialism:

Orchestrating a coup against Ukraine's democratically elected leader in an attempt to take conrol of Russia's only warm water base.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25647826 - 11/30/18 03:46 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
:awesomenod:  The REAL reason the US orchestrated the coup in Ukraine.




Are you saying that the US government is working with a *portion of the Russian government to overthrow the current regime? Or, we did this?

Can you elaborate please


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Edited by Citizen X (11/30/18 03:49 AM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: Cinnamon]
    #25648530 - 11/30/18 12:40 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Citizen X said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Sevastopol Harbor - a Russian Naval town that's now open to the general public



The REAL reason for annexation right there.

access to world domination by sea.



:awesomenod:  The REAL reason the US orchestrated the coup in Ukraine.



Are you saying that the US government is working with a *portion of the Russian government to overthrow the current regime? Or, we did this?

Can you elaborate please



I have no evidence Russia was involved in the coup.  But there is plenty of evidence the US was:

We have Victoria Nuland’s intercepted phone call and Obama’s admission to name just a few of the many sources of evidence.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25649732 - 12/01/18 12:26 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Here's a great article I just found.  Some of this I've already stated, but it backs my points up, and if you click on the link to the article, it provides sources for each of these claims:

Stop Saying, “Putin Invaded Ukraine and Annexed Crimea”
Quote:

Putin did not “invade” Crimea in 2014. Russia has a naval base in Sevastopol, Crimea, and thus it’s normal for Russian soldiers to be in Crimea.

Putin did not “annex” Crimea. Crimea had a referendum and the people overwhelmingly (>95%) chose to go with Russia.

Why the referendum was not “rigged”: More than 75% of Crimeans speak Russian as their native language. Deciding whether to join Russia or Ukraine is a no-brainer – it’s similar to asking a region if they want to be a part of the U.S. or Mexico.  Nobody protested after or since the referendum.

Historical link between Russia-Ukraine-Crimea: It’s important to remember that Crimea has belonged to Russia for 200+ years (since 1783). In 1954, Russian leader Khrushchev – a Ukrainian by birth – transferred Crimea to Ukraine. He did it as a goodwill gesture to celebrate the 300th anniversary of Ukraine becoming a part of Russia. Nobody in Russia at that time could foresee the fall of the USSR.  The eastern half of Ukraine is predominantly made up of ethnic Russians and would gladly secede and join Russia any time. In fact, Ukraine has been virtually split in half for the last three years.

Crimea’s Strategic Importance: Black Sea – where Crimea is located – is strategically important to Russia, since it’s the only gateway to the Mediterranean, Africa, etc. Thus it’s important for shipping, oil/gas pipelines, as well as for military operations. It’s not an exaggeration to say that it would be suicidal for Russia to give up Crimea and control of Black Sea.

Neocon Schemes: As Asst. Sec. of State Victoria Nuland admitted, since 1991, the US has spent more than $5 billion to lure Ukraine away from Russia. This was spent on propaganda, bribes, NGOs, recruitment of activists etc.  Rather than waiting for a new election, Western elites staged violent protests in Ukraine’s capital and simply overthrew the government. (Neo-Nazi groups such as Svoboda played a major role in the riots.) Then new unelected President and Prime Minister were hand-chosen by the West and installed as puppets.

Horrific Results: Just like they destroyed Libya and Syria in “humanitarian wars” and then moved on with no guilt, the Neocons have done the same in Ukraine. For three years, a civil war has been raging on in Ukraine.  Its debt-to-GDP ratio has doubled and close to 60% of the people live below the poverty line. Its industries are crumbling, and pensions/social welfare have been deeply slashed. Neo-Nazi groups are on the rise, and 80% of young people are desperate to leave the country. One group estimates that one in four prostitutes in Europe are now from Ukraine.

Basically, the country is ruined and has no future. Congrats to Neocons and warmongers who keep repeating like robots, “Putin invaded Ukraine and annexed Crimea.” Still bitter at Putin, the Pentagon has included $350 million of military aid to Ukraine for the coming fiscal year. More Ukrainians will keep dying for the globalist agenda.




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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25649795 - 12/01/18 01:41 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

This is absolutely hilarious... "A US contractor accidentally revealed a US military specialist deployment in the combat zones in Ukraine via a Job Advertisement on LinkedIn."

Job description
Mission Essential is accepting applications for linguist candidates who speak Ukrainian to provide foreign language interpretation and translation services to support classified Contingency Operations in support of the U.S. Military in Ukraine.

Whoopsie, we weren't supposed to know about that!  :shocked:


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25650059 - 12/01/18 07:26 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Putin did not “invade” Crimea in 2014. Russia has a naval base in Sevastopol, Crimea, and thus it’s normal for Russian soldiers to be in Crimea.



Is it normal for troops to take over government buildings in another Crimean city entirely? You know, the ones who looked and acted exactly like exactly like Russian paratroopers, only minus their insignia?

At the time Putin flatly denied they were his troops, that he was in the process of annexing part of another European country; but one month after Russia's formal annexation of the peninsula, Putin admitted he had "of course" deployed troops to Crimea.

He has since been filmed saying he gave the order to begin planning the operation to annex Crimea several weeks before the people who live there were given the chance to vote on it, albeit in a referendum marshalled by men with Kalashnikovs.



Quote:

Why the referendum was not “rigged”: More than 75% of Crimeans speak Russian as their native language. Deciding whether to join Russia or Ukraine is a no-brainer – it’s similar to asking a region if they want to be a part of the U.S. or Mexico.  Nobody protested after or since the referendum.



Once again, completely avoiding any discussion of the Tartars or a history of forced demographic changes. Why gloss over this history and act like Crimea naturally had a Russian population? Tartars have definitely been protesting, but unfortunately Russia made protest against Russian annexation illegal, and has arrested those who participate. 

UN Human Rights: Press briefing notes on Crimean Tatars

Human Rights Watch: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies

Why are you diminishing this reality, and painting a picture of a unified Russian Crimea happy to be home? Why are you diminishing the reality of Russia's human rights violations?


Quote:

Crimea’s Strategic Importance: Black Sea – where Crimea is located – is strategically important to Russia, since it’s the only gateway to the Mediterranean, Africa, etc. Thus it’s important for shipping, oil/gas pipelines, as well as for military operations. It’s not an exaggeration to say that it would be suicidal for Russia to give up Crimea and control of Black Sea.



"Suicidal for Russia to give up Crimea", yet you still believe that Russia was completely innocent and hands off during this time?



Quote:

Neocon Schemes: As Asst. Sec. of State Victoria Nuland admitted, since 1991, the US has spent more than $5 billion to lure Ukraine away from Russia. This was spent on propaganda, bribes, NGOs, recruitment of activists etc.  Rather than waiting for a new election, Western elites staged violent protests in Ukraine’s capital and simply overthrew the government. (Neo-Nazi groups such as Svoboda played a major role in the riots.) Then new unelected President and Prime Minister were hand-chosen by the West and installed as puppets.



I notice you edited out the part here that blamed George Soros for the events surrounding Euromaidan. Why edit it out? Arr you worried that connection to the George Soros 'globalists' conspiracy will undermine the article/argument?





You don't have to paint Russia as a faultless agent to criticize the actions of the US and the EU leaders. Ignoring or diminishing the negative actions of Russia does nothing but harm your points about the neoliberal west, by revealing a heavy pro-Russian bias, and casting a reason to doubt any truthful thing you may be sharing.

Stop being a mouthpiece for Russian state propaganda.


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25650689 - 12/01/18 01:25 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Is it normal for troops to take over government buildings in another Crimean city entirely? You know, the ones who looked and acted exactly like exactly like Russian paratroopers, only minus their insignia?



Is it normal for citizens to stage a coup against a democratically elected leader?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
At the time Putin flatly denied they were his troops, that he was in the process of annexing part of another European country; but one month after Russia's formal annexation of the peninsula, Putin admitted he had "of course" deployed troops to Crimea.



The Russians already had troops in Crimea, and there is absolutely NO evidence that the Russian military took over any Government buildings.  They were used as peacekeepers, so the violence that was seen in mainland Ukraine wouldn't spread to Crimea.  Only 6 people died in all of Crimea as a result of the Ukrainian coup, which were mainly the result of protests staged by the Tartars.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
He has since been filmed saying he gave the order to begin planning the operation to annex Crimea several weeks before the people who live there were given the chance to vote on it, albeit in a referendum marshalled by men with Kalashnikovs.



According to your article, Putin knew the referendum was coming and that the vast majority of Crimea would vote to rejoin Russia, so of course he prepared for it.  Can you provide evidence showing the referendum was marshalled by men with Kalashnikovs?  No one I spoke with in Crimea said they saw any sign of unusual Russian activity during the referendum.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why the referendum was not “rigged”: More than 75% of Crimeans speak Russian as their native language. Deciding whether to join Russia or Ukraine is a no-brainer – it’s similar to asking a region if they want to be a part of the U.S. or Mexico.  Nobody protested after or since the referendum.



Once again, completely avoiding any discussion of the Tartars or a history of forced demographic changes. Why gloss over this history and act like Crimea naturally had a Russian population?



I acknowledged the history of the Tatars.  It doesn't change the vote.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Tartars have definitely been protesting, but unfortunately Russia made protest against Russian annexation illegal, and has arrested those who participate. 

UN Human Rights: Press briefing notes on Crimean Tatars

Human Rights Watch: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies



As I just mentioned above, the protests led to the small number of deaths that occurred in Crimea during that time.  You don't think anyone should be held accountable?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Why are you diminishing this reality, and painting a picture of a unified Russian Crimea happy to be home? Why are you diminishing the reality of Russia's human rights violations?



I'm not.  I haven't argued with you about human rights violations, and I haven't argued that the Tatars weren't mistreated.  But the fact remains that 96% of the population favored leaving Ukraine after the coup.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
"Suicidal for Russia to give up Crimea", yet you still believe that Russia was completely innocent and hands off during this time?



I don't know what you mean.  Russia was very happy that the Crimean people overwhelmingly voted to return to Russia, and they fully supported the vote (it appears one side respects democracy while the other side stages coups against democratically elected leaders).

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Neocon Schemes: As Asst. Sec. of State Victoria Nuland admitted, since 1991, the US has spent more than $5 billion to lure Ukraine away from Russia. This was spent on propaganda, bribes, NGOs, recruitment of activists etc.  Rather than waiting for a new election, Western elites staged violent protests in Ukraine’s capital and simply overthrew the government. (Neo-Nazi groups such as Svoboda played a major role in the riots.) Then new unelected President and Prime Minister were hand-chosen by the West and installed as puppets.



I notice you edited out the part here that blamed George Soros for the events surrounding Euromaidan. Why edit it out? Arr you worried that connection to the George Soros 'globalists' conspiracy will undermine the article/argument?



No, the article was too long, so I cut down the larger bullet points.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You don't have to paint Russia as a faultless agent to criticize the actions of the US and the EU leaders. Ignoring or diminishing the negative actions of Russia does nothing but harm your points about the neoliberal west, by revealing a heavy pro-Russian bias, and casting a reason to doubt any truthful thing you may be sharing.

Stop being a mouthpiece for Russian state propaganda.



Now you're just making things up.  I never said Russia was faultless, and I agreed the Tatars were mistreated.


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 2
    #25650809 - 12/01/18 02:36 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:





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Re: Crimea [Re: chibiabos]
    #25650855 - 12/01/18 03:02 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

If you can't provide evidence, why do I have to agree with you?

So ya, you're right... make believing with me is like talking to a brick wall.

I don't play make believe in the political forum.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25653945 - 12/03/18 07:37 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Is it normal for troops to take over government buildings in another Crimean city entirely? You know, the ones who looked and acted exactly like exactly like Russian paratroopers, only minus their insignia?



Is it normal for citizens to stage a coup against a democratically elected leader?



Is it normal for 'whataboutism' to come from a Putin mouthpiece? :lol:

I'm not defending the coup or the actions of any western players, I'm responding to your defence of Russian actions so drop the "what about the coup" dance. Was it normal for Russian ground combat forces to man roadblocks and seize strategic points on the Crimean peninsula?



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
At the time Putin flatly denied they were his troops, that he was in the process of annexing part of another European country; but one month after Russia's formal annexation of the peninsula, Putin admitted he had "of course" deployed troops to Crimea.



The Russians already had troops in Crimea, and there is absolutely NO evidence that the Russian military took over any Government buildings.  They were used as peacekeepers, so the violence that was seen in mainland Ukraine wouldn't spread to Crimea.  Only 6 people died in all of Crimea as a result of the Ukrainian coup, which were mainly the result of protests staged by the Tartars.



Why would Putin send out uninsigniad soldiers and deny their status as Russian troops, instead of properly identifying them as Russian peacekeepers from the start? What reason, other than subterfuge?



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
He has since been filmed saying he gave the order to begin planning the operation to annex Crimea several weeks before the people who live there were given the chance to vote on it, albeit in a referendum marshalled by men with Kalashnikovs.



According to your article, Putin knew the referendum was coming and that the vast majority of Crimea would vote to rejoin Russia, so of course he prepared for it.  Can you provide evidence showing the referendum was marshalled by men with Kalashnikovs?  No one I spoke with in Crimea said they saw any sign of unusual Russian activity during the referendum.



Yes, Putin claimed to know because of "secret, undated opinion polls showed 80% of Crimeans favoured joining Russia." As you like to say, "there is absolutely NO evidence" that Putin knew the opinion of Crimeans before he gave the order to begin planning the operation to annex.

"No one I spoke with...", well the thing about anecdotal evidence...



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Why the referendum was not “rigged”: More than 75% of Crimeans speak Russian as their native language. Deciding whether to join Russia or Ukraine is a no-brainer – it’s similar to asking a region if they want to be a part of the U.S. or Mexico.  Nobody protested after or since the referendum.



Once again, completely avoiding any discussion of the Tartars or a history of forced demographic changes. Why gloss over this history and act like Crimea naturally had a Russian population?



I acknowledged the history of the Tatars.  It doesn't change the vote.



Yes, you "acknowledged" it briefly in another thread, and briefly again when I brought it up here. I never said you haven't acknowledged it, I said you were glossing over this history, acting like Crimea naturally had a Russian population, and avoiding any discussion of the Tartars.

For example, the claim "Nobody protested after or since the referendum", is patently false. Crimean Tartars have been protesting and experience serious attacks on their human rights since the referendum. I've linked these two reports multiple times in this thread now, but you continue to gloss over any discussion with your claim that you "acknowledged" the issue in some obscure corner of this forum once before. Here they are again:



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Tartars have definitely been protesting, but unfortunately Russia made protest against Russian annexation illegal, and has arrested those who participate. 

UN Human Rights: Press briefing notes on Crimean Tatars

Human Rights Watch: Persecution of Crimean Tatars Intensifies



As I just mentioned above, the protests led to the small number of deaths that occurred in Crimea during that time.  You don't think anyone should be held accountable?



Akhtem Chiygoz was arrested for organising protests and Ilmi Umerov was arrested for “separatism” after he criticised Russia's seizure of his homeland. Neither was connected to, or charged with, any murder. Who is being held accountable in the death of Reşat Amet? During his (peaceful and solitary) protest in front of the Crimean Council of Ministers building in Simferopol's Lenin Square, he was abducted by three unidentified men in military uniform from the "Crimean self-defense" detachments who took him away. On 15 March 2014 Reşat's body was found by police in a forest about 60 kilometers east of the Crimean capital. The body bearing marks of violence and torture, with his head bound with duct-tape and his legs shackled. A pair of handcuffs was laying near his body.

You should read those human rights reports, because mass arrests of Crimean Tatars have occurred, along with punitive searches, and banning of Crimean Tartar organizations and media. The claim that "Nobody protested after or since the referendum", is a lie! If you had bothered to read either of those reports you would see that detention and prosecution for "separatism" has happened to Crimean Tartars for as little as posting a comment on social media criticizing the occupation of Crimea (Suleiman Kadyrov), or peacefully staged single-person pickets to protest the arrest and prosecution of other Tatars. 

Avoiding all this, while gleefully exclaiming "Nobody protested after or since the referendum." is to diminish the reality of human rights abuses that Crimean Tatars are experiencing at the hands of Russian authorities.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Why are you diminishing this reality, and painting a picture of a unified Russian Crimea happy to be home? Why are you diminishing the reality of Russia's human rights violations?



I'm not.  I haven't argued with you about human rights violations, and I haven't argued that the Tatars weren't mistreated.  But the fact remains that 96% of the population favored leaving Ukraine after the coup.




Yes, you are diminishing this reality. See above. You aren't arguing against it, you are just nodding your head briefly and moving on to talking about how happy the majority of Crimeans are to be part of Russia, without any further discussion. That is diminishing the reality of the situation.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
"Suicidal for Russia to give up Crimea", yet you still believe that Russia was completely innocent and hands off during this time?



I don't know what you mean.  Russia was very happy that the Crimean people overwhelmingly voted to return to Russia, and they fully supported the vote (it appears one side respects democracy while the other side stages coups against democratically elected leaders).



I'm saying that you have to be incredibly naive or deliberately obtuse to think that Russia, when faced with a US-led coup with potential consequences that would be "suicidal for Russia", would take a hands-off approach to the situation and just hope that local democracy would be enough to prevent the worst from happening.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I notice you edited out the part here that blamed George Soros for the events surrounding Euromaidan. Why edit it out? Arr you worried that connection to the George Soros 'globalists' conspiracy will undermine the article/argument?



No, the article was too long, so I cut down the larger bullet points.



So you agree with the assessment that George Soros was largely responsible for the events surrounding Euromaidan?



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You don't have to paint Russia as a faultless agent to criticize the actions of the US and the EU leaders. Ignoring or diminishing the negative actions of Russia does nothing but harm your points about the neoliberal west, by revealing a heavy pro-Russian bias, and casting a reason to doubt any truthful thing you may be sharing.

Stop being a mouthpiece for Russian state propaganda.



Now you're just making things up.  I never said Russia was faultless, and I agreed the Tatars were mistreated.



Where in this thread have you talked about Russian faults with regards to the situation in Ukraine?


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25654061 - 12/03/18 08:43 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Since the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia, couldn’t the whole affair be considered an act of liberation as opposed to annexation?


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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25654102 - 12/03/18 09:07 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Read my posts in this thread regarding Crimean Tatars before making a sweeping claim like "the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia".


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25654111 - 12/03/18 09:14 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I didn’t make the claim.  My sister in law is Ukrainian and she told me that.  She seems like a pretty reliable source....she’s educated and honest and often returns there to visit family.  In fact, she and my brother just returned from the Ukraine like 3 weeks ago.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25654154 - 12/03/18 09:34 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Yes, it is highly likely that the majority of ethnic Russians residing in Crimea are happy to be part of Russia instead of Ukraine.

But the claim "the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia" ignores the fact that a very vocal minority was opposed to the annexation, has been suffering severe Russian state repression in the aftermath, and is only a minority because of Russian/USSR state repression in the past century.

The reality is that the situation is not clear. Ukraine has the misfortune of falling between two superpowers, and as a result ends up being a geopolitical playground. I'm not arguing that Crimea should have necessarily remained with Ukraine (I'm opposed to borders, on principle), I'm just not willing to let the situation be completely whitewashed, and the human rights violations of Russia be ignored.

It would be like a bunch of Americans moving to some northern Mexico community until they vastly outnumbered the original local population, and then calling it liberation when the USA military came in to annex the region because 80% of the people living there supported it.


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25654177 - 12/03/18 09:50 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

But why stop there?  I think it’s been mentioned, but how about the entire continental US?  Or the americas in their entirety, for that matter?  I’m sure your country has perpetuated its fair share of human rights violations.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25654187 - 12/03/18 09:56 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I'm not American, but I definitely oppose many actions that the USA has committed, and the existence of the state itself.

That being said, this thread is about Crimea, so discussion is focused on the human rights violations happening in Crimea, under Russian state authority.

With the above information about Crimean Tatars, do you still think the statement "the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia" is correct or appropriate to apply?


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25654196 - 12/03/18 10:01 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Who said you were from the US?  The majority of the inhabitants of Crimea wanted to return to Russia.  I’m simply pointing out what I was told by a Ukrainian.  :shrug:  And my point about human rights violations is that regardless of the nations/people involved, superior technology will always prevail and indigenous populations will be displaced or eliminated because humans are unscrupulous and biologically speaking, will use any and all means possible to outcompete other organisms for the resources needed to ensure survival.  You’re arguing against biological/human nature. 


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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25654217 - 12/03/18 10:18 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Forced copulation is also part of biological nature. Doesn't mean I'll stop being opposed to rape.

Will you answer this question: with the above information about Crimean Tatars, do you still think the statement "the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia" is correct or appropriate to apply?


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #25654229 - 12/03/18 10:31 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Yes, the majority of the inhabitants of Crimea wanted to return to Russia.  I don’t like HR violations any more than you do.  :shrug:


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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25654529 - 12/03/18 12:50 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
Since the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia, couldn’t the whole affair be considered an act of liberation as opposed to annexation?



Just like the Sudetenland!:rollsafe:


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25654662 - 12/03/18 01:51 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I'm not defending the coup or the actions of any western players, I'm responding to your defence of Russian actions so drop the "what about the coup" dance.



But the vote to leave Ukraine never would have happened if not for the Western backed coup.  Crimeans preferred voting for their leader rather than having one installed by the US, so they voted to leave.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Was it normal for Russian ground combat forces to man roadblocks and seize strategic points on the Crimean peninsula?



Again, either prove it was Russians who took over government building, or stop make believing.  I told you I don't like to play make believe in the political forum.  If you'd like, I'll go to the Pub with you and we can make believe all our facts there.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Why would Putin send out uninsigniad soldiers and deny their status as Russian troops, instead of properly identifying them as Russian peacekeepers from the start? What reason, other than subterfuge?



Again, you need to prove the "uninsigniad soldiers" were Russians rather than Ukrainian; I'm not playing make believe with you.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Yes, Putin claimed to know because of "secret, undated opinion polls showed 80% of Crimeans favoured joining Russia." As you like to say, "there is absolutely NO evidence" that Putin knew the opinion of Crimeans before he gave the order to begin planning the operation to annex.



Who said "secret, undated opinion polls showed 80% of Crimeans favoured joining Russia."  That was obvious to anyone who knew anything about Crimea.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn0o3 said:
No one I spoke with in Crimea said they saw any sign of unusual Russian activity during the referendum.



well the thing about anecdotal evidence...



Do you know the difference between "Pro-Russian Troops" mentioned in your article and "Russian Troops" as you are make believing?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
you were glossing over this history, acting like Crimea naturally had a Russian population, and avoiding any discussion of the Tartars.



And again, I acknowledge the Tatars and that aren't treated well.  You fail to acknowledge that regardless of the Tatars, 96% of Crimea wanted to rejoin Russia.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
As I just mentioned above, the protests led to the small number of deaths that occurred in Crimea during that time.  You don't think anyone should be held accountable?



Akhtem Chiygoz was arrested for organising protests and Ilmi Umerov was arrested for “separatism” after he criticised Russia's seizure of his homeland. Neither was connected to, or charged with, any murder.



I didn't say he murdered anyone, I said people were killed in the protests he staged.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Who is being held accountable in the death of Reşat Amet?



His murderers would be held accountable if they are found, that's who.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You should read those human rights reports, because mass arrests of Crimean Tatars have occurred, along with punitive searches, and banning of Crimean Tartar organizations and media. The claim that "Nobody protested after or since the referendum", is a lie! If you had bothered to read either of those reports you would see that detention and prosecution for "separatism" has happened to Crimean Tartars for as little as posting a comment on social media criticizing the occupation of Crimea (Suleiman Kadyrov), or peacefully staged single-person pickets to protest the arrest and prosecution of other Tatars. 

Avoiding all this, while gleefully exclaiming "Nobody protested after or since the referendum." is to diminish the reality of human rights abuses that Crimean Tatars are experiencing at the hands of Russian authorities.



I'll say it for about the 10th time:  Tatars are mistreated in Crimea.  And for about the 10th time, this doesn't change the fact that 96% of the Crimiean population voted to rejoin Russia.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
You aren't arguing against it, you are just nodding your head briefly and moving on to talking about how happy the majority of Crimeans are to be part of Russia, without any further discussion. That is diminishing the reality of the situation.



No, that's explaining the reality of the situation.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
you have to be incredibly naive or deliberately obtuse to think that Russia, when faced with a US-led coup with potential consequences that would be "suicidal for Russia", would take a hands-off approach to the situation and just hope that local democracy would be enough to prevent the worst from happening.



Once again, I'm not saying there were no Russian troops in Crimea.  I'm saying there is no evidence they are the ones who took over the Government buildings.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
So you agree with the assessment that George Soros was largely responsible for the events surrounding Euromaidan?



The article I provided said "George Soros, John McCain, Neocons and EU leaders openly intervened in a sovereign nation’s democracy and manipulated the system."  Yes, I absolutely agree with that statement, and there are leaked documents showing evidence of that.

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Where in this thread have you talked about Russian faults with regards to the situation in Ukraine?



I acknowledged many times that they mistreat Tatars.


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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25654685 - 12/03/18 01:58 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
...with the above information about Crimean Tatars, do you still think the statement "the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia" is correct or appropriate to apply?



Yes, the majority of the inhabitants of Crimea wanted to return to Russia.  I don’t like HR violations any more than you do.  :shrug:



Exactly.  Instead of saying "the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia", let's say "96% of the Crimeans wanted to go back to Russia.".  Better?

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
It would be like a bunch of Americans moving to some northern Mexico community until they vastly outnumbered the original local population, and then calling it liberation when the USA military came in to annex the region because 80% of the people living there supported it.



It would also be like Europeans coming to North America and pushing out the Indians, and then claiming North America for themselves because the majority support it.  :shrug:


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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25654697 - 12/03/18 02:02 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Mycolorado said:
But why stop there?  I think it’s been mentioned, but how about the entire continental US?  Or the americas in their entirety, for that matter?  I’m sure your country has perpetuated its fair share of human rights violations.




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Re: Crimea [Re: Mycolorado]
    #25654866 - 12/03/18 03:14 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

I'm glad you both agree that the actions of Russia are similar to the human rights violation that is colonization.

What, to you, would constitute proof or evidence that the unmarked soldiers in Crimea were from the Russia military? Just so I'll know what threshold I have to meet.


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25655380 - 12/03/18 06:47 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
What, to you, would constitute proof or evidence that the unmarked soldiers in Crimea were from the Russia military? Just so I'll know what threshold I have to meet.



Burden of proof is ALWAYS on the person making a claim.  What was that proof for you that the unmarked soldiers in Crimea were from the Russia military?


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #25655400 - 12/03/18 06:56 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Yeah, Mr. Wisdom.  You know, aside from the fact that they were speaking Russian and using Russian kit and Russian protocols.


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Re: Crimea [Re: chibiabos]
    #25655491 - 12/03/18 07:47 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Almost everyone speaks Russian in Crimea.  Please provide links about 'Russian kit' and 'Russian protocols', so I can see what you mean.

I suspect it will be very similar to them speaking in Russian...  "They used radio to communicate.  The Russians use radio too!  They must be Russian!!!"

But hey, prove me wrong...


--------------------
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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (12/03/18 08:42 PM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25655756 - 12/03/18 09:55 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Analysis of the kits by Finnish military magazine, concludes: "With a very high probability we argue that these troops are the 45th Guards Separate Reconnaissance Regiment of VDV."

Independent Crimean Tartar TV station ATR (since shut down by Russian authorities) reports unmarked Russian special forces were photographed carrying VSS Vintorez rifles near Belbek airbase in Crimea. Significant because this gun is issued primarily to Russian Spetsnaz units for undercover or clandestine operations.

There's also this interview where Admiral Kasatonov revealed what he knew about the operation, saying that the famous "polite people" were Army Spetsnaz.



Beyond that, let's examine the various lies fron Putin and other Russian authorities:

  • Initially, Putin stated that the men in green were not part of Russian Armed Forces, but groups of local militia who had seized their weapons from the Ukrainian Army. Since examination of the kit recreate the weapons could only have come from the Russian army, this was a lie.

  • In March 2014, Putin continued to maintain that there was no pre-planned intervention but that "the heavily armed, tightly coordinated groups who took over Crimea's airports and ports at the start of the incursion – they were merely spontaneous 'self-defence groups' who may have acquired their Russian-looking uniforms from local [military] shops (voyentorg)". Once again, analysis of the kit reveals the weapons and uniforms could only have been obtained from Russian military sources. We also know, as Putin later admitted, that the intervention had been pre-planned. Double lie.

  • On 17 April, President Putin admitted for the first time publicly that Russian special forces were involved in the events of Crimea, for the purposes of protecting local people and creating conditions for a referendum. Later, he admitted that Russian Armed Forces had blocked Ukrainian Armed Forces in Crimea during the events. Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me. But fool me three times? No.





I feel that the combination of analysis of the military kits, interview statements of Admiral Kasatonov, the serial lies/denials of Putin, and common sense all together should provide sufficient evidence of the role Russian forces played in Crimea.


--------------------


Edited by shivas.wisdom (12/03/18 10:01 PM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25655901 - 12/04/18 12:31 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Your sources are incorrect that the uniforms and helmets could only have belonged to the Russian military.  I can buy them online.  And the rifles that your article said could only have belonged to the Russian army are known to be sold in four other countries.

Regardless, I'm NOT arguing Russian troops weren't involved in Crimea.  I already noted there were Russian troops in Crimea as Russia has a base there, and the Russian military served as peacekeepers there (only 6 people died when Crimea rejoined Russia).  They also helped local self defense units secure the Crimean airport.

But we're diverging from the original argument which was whether Russia has been an imperialistic country post WWII.  Your definition says:  "imperialism is defined as major powers using force (military, economic, diplomatic) to subordinate weaker states to their interests"

Russia didn't use force to subordinate Crimea to its interests.  It may have used force to support Crimean interests (or at least the interests of 96% of Crimea's population).


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Re: Crimea [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #25656055 - 12/04/18 04:47 AM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Your sources are incorrect that the uniforms and helmets could only have belonged to the Russian military.  I can buy them online.  And the rifles that your article said could only have belonged to the Russian army are known to be sold in four other countries.




The Russian claim was that the "self-defense groups" were a spontaneous response from locals who stole their weapons from the Ukrainian military and purchased their Russian uniforms from local shops.

These weapons were not held by the Ukrainian military, nor were any local shops selling the Russian military gear ever identified. I think you lose the claim of "spontaneous" if you were engaging in illegal arms trades with Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Namibia, or Syria to get your weapons.

I would also say that it is highly unlikely that uninsigniad soldiers would be wearing only military gear of Russian origin, if their point of origin was within Ukraine. Its highly unlikely that spontaneous self-defense groups would be decked out, uniformly, in some of the most modern gear available at the time without outside assistance and/or pre-planning.

Then you also have the claim from Admiral Kasatonov directly connecting the "polite men" (Russian term for the unidentified soldiers) to Russian Spetsnaz units.


Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Again, either prove it was Russians who took over government building, or stop make believing.  I told you I don't like to play make believe in the political forum.  If you'd like, I'll go to the Pub with you and we can make believe all our facts there.

Again, you need to prove the "uninsigniad soldiers" were Russians rather than Ukrainian; I'm not playing make believe with you.

Once again, I'm not saying there were no Russian troops in Crimea.  I'm saying there is no evidence they are the ones who took over the Government buildings.




Responding to the claims above, I still believe I have provided sufficient evidence that the unmarked troops were Russian soldiers, not spontaneous self-defense groups of local Ukrainians. I don't believe you have supplied any evidence to support your position that the unmarked troops were Ukrainian. As it stands, the only reason I've seen to support that claim is the words of Putin. Considering his story changed several times, I don't consider it reliable testimony. Otherwise, all the evidence I supplied shows that none of the military gear used was acquired locally; needed to have either been provided by Russia or sought in advance of the coup.



Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:.
But we're diverging from the original argument which was whether Russia has been an imperialistic country post WWII.  Your definition says:  "imperialism is defined as major powers using force (military, economic, diplomatic) to subordinate weaker states to their interests"

Russia didn't use force to subordinate Crimea to its interests.  It may have used force to support Crimean interests (or at least the interests of 96% of Crimea's population).



Here is a quote from Putin: “Our armed forces, let’s be frank, blocked Ukraine’s armed forces that were stationed in Crimea."

Regardless the results of the referendum, it was considered illegal under both Ukrainian law, Crimean law, and international law. The only reason the referendum, and resulting annexation, happened, was because of the force (or threat of force) of Russian armed forces preventing Ukrainian armed forces from controlling the region. Ukraine was weaker than Russia, and lost Crimea as a result. Fits the definition of a "major power using force (military, economic, diplomatic) to subordinate weaker states to their interests."


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #25657327 - 12/04/18 05:12 PM (1 year, 7 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The Russian claim was that the "self-defense groups" were a spontaneous response from locals who stole their weapons from the Ukrainian military and purchased their Russian uniforms from local shops.

These weapons were not held by the Ukrainian military, nor were any local shops selling the Russian military gear ever identified.

I would also say that it is highly unlikely that uninsigniad soldiers would be wearing only military gear of Russian origin, if their point of origin was within Ukraine. Its highly unlikely that spontaneous self-defense groups would be decked out, uniformly, in some of the most modern gear available at the time without outside assistance and/or pre-planning.

Then you also have the claim from Admiral Kasatonov directly connecting the "polite men" (Russian term for the unidentified soldiers) to Russian Spetsnaz units.



As I said above, "I'm NOT arguing Russian troops weren't involved in Crimea, and the Russian military served as peacekeepers there.  They also helped local self defense units secure the Crimean airport.  But we're diverging from the original argument which was whether Russia has been an imperialistic country post WWII."

So I agree with you that Russian troops were used in Crimea and we can look at whether that was imperialism.  If the Crimeans wanted them there, then by definition it's not imperialism.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Again, either prove it was Russians who took over government building, or stop make believing.



Again, you need to prove the "uninsigniad soldiers" were Russians rather than Ukrainian; I'm not playing make believe with you.

I still believe I have provided sufficient evidence that the unmarked troops were Russian soldiers, not spontaneous self-defense groups of local Ukrainians. I don't believe you have supplied any evidence to support your position that the unmarked troops were Ukrainian.



As I said, I agree that Russian soldiers worked together with the local self defense units, and I said the Russian military helped secure the Crimean airport.  I don't know whether the Russian military secured the parliamentary buildings, but if they did it was with the support of the locals, so I'll give this to you.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
I was asking for evidence for your claim.  As it stands, the only reason I've seen to support that claim is the words of Putin. Considering his story changed several times, I don't consider it reliable testimony.



Since the Russian military was working together with the local self defense units, it's very possible that Putin was telling the truth about them.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:.
Russia didn't use force to subordinate Crimea to its interests.  It may have used force to support Crimean interests (or at least the interests of 96% of Crimea's population).



Here is a quote from Putin: “Our armed forces, let’s be frank, blocked Ukraine’s armed forces that were stationed in Crimea."

Regardless the results of the referendum, it was considered illegal under both Ukrainian law, Crimean law, and international law. The only reason the referendum, and resulting annexation, happened, was because of the force (or threat of force) of Russian armed forces preventing Ukrainian armed forces from controlling the region.  Ukraine was weaker than Russia, and lost Crimea as a result. Fits the definition of a "major power using force (military, economic, diplomatic) to subordinate weaker states to their interests."



This is the crux of the entire argument right here.

If Russia accepted the Crimean referendum with no other factors, then I'd absolutely agree with everything you just said.  However, everything you just said was preceded by an illegal coup in which the democratically elected leader of Ukraine was ousted.  Why does Crimea have to accept a leader that the US installed over a leader that they elected???

A coup is illegal under all laws, and the Crimean people had a moral right to say "If Ukraine won't let us vote for our leader, then we'll vote to leave Ukraine."


Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (12/04/18 05:37 PM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: koods]
    #26402366 - 12/27/19 01:24 AM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Since the Shroomery is a bit slow this week, I'll bring up some small news.  Europe's longest bridge was opened in May of 2018 connecting Crimea to Russia, and they just finished the railway portion.  Putin was first to cross.



This is interesting because:

1.  I visited Crimea a few years ago
2.  I learned about the bridge's construction at a very intricate display at the GUM Mall at the Red Square in Moscow

The video ends with an ominous sounding voice saying that "Moscow has aggressively pushed the region (Crimea) as a tourist destination".  And it really is - it's an awesome place to visit if you ever get a chance someday. 

Haters are free to hate me now.  :smirk:


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Edited by Falcon91Wolvrn03 (12/27/19 01:37 AM)


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Re: Crimea [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 3
    #26402636 - 12/27/19 08:06 AM (6 months, 11 days ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:

It would be like a bunch of Americans moving to some northern Mexico community until they vastly outnumbered the original local population, and then calling it liberation when the USA military came in to annex the region because 80% of the people living there supported it.




Ah, so Texas.


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