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OfflineVeganHippy
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Are we as individual just a grand illusion? * 1
    #24547492 - 08/12/17 03:16 AM (10 days, 9 hours ago)

The question that I keep coming back to is whether or not we exist as individuals after we die or if we become one universal consciousness and do not exist at all as a soul or unique individual entity. From what I have been reading it seems as though a lot of people who have taken high doses of psychedelics such as dmt or shrooms often have the same basic realization that we are all one and our self as we know it does not exist after death. I often hear these people say that you are only your ego and you do not go anywhere after death since that is all you are. But dogs do not have an ego yet they are still individuals with unique personalities which is my first point of questioning this logic.  From my understanding of what these people are saying is that basically our whole life is an illusion and once we die it will be meaningless and all those we love and share our life with will also be gone forever after they die since there will be no one to remember them as we all become a part of this one single consciousness that has no individuals. This concept to me is beyond depressing but I have a lot of doubt that it is not entirely true. My doubt comes from personal anecdotal experiences of what I believe to be individual souls.

First is that the night my great grandfather died he was not sick at all only 40 years old and died instantly from a heart attack with no prior warnings at 3am. My grandpa who is his son was woken up the night he died out of a deep sleep from him calling his name and saying goodbye keep in mind my grandpa lived in florida at the time and my great grandfather was living in Pennsylvania. A few hours after this happened my grandpa received a phone call that he had passed. I know for a fact my grandpa is not crazy or a liar he is a very honest man and I believe this really happened. If individual souls do not exist then how could my great grandfather have contacted him like this?

Another story I have is when I went to a certified medium in Lilly dale New York. How it works there is you just show up at their house without any previous information given to them. This lady knew nothing about me and I was 100% skeptical until she spoke of the only person I knew at the time that passed away and she described exactly how she looked and said things that no one could have possibly known and even described her death in detail. Keep in mind I was quiet the entire time other than when I said hello so she did not get any hints form me. My grandma was communicating through her and if we are all one than how could experiences of talking to individual entities exist??  Now I know that there are plenty of fake mediums but this one had to be real. She also identified the exact location of where my grandmothers ring was located in my house that had been lost a long time ago..

I am looking for answers from someone who has experience in diving deep into the “othe side” with psychedelics who may have a better understanding in how this universal consciousness works and if there is some truth in us having individual souls and personalities after death. I know we are not going to be the same when we die as we are as humans and that we transform completely but when we are transformed do “we” still exist on any level other than one single consciousness? I know nobody will ever have the exact answer to my question or really ever know what happens for sure when we die but I would like to know what some of your perspectives are on this idea.


Edited by VeganHippy (08/12/17 03:34 AM)


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OfflineProctorSilexicon
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24547577 - 08/12/17 04:20 AM (10 days, 8 hours ago)

I don't know. But when I die, I want my corpse to become fertilizer for a big beautiful Pine or Pinyon tree. I think that some of my residual energy would live on in the tree. I would become one with the tree, and I could smell hella fresh put my nuts in people's mouths for a thousand years


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OfflineVeganHippy
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: ProctorSilexicon]
    #24547587 - 08/12/17 04:37 AM (10 days, 7 hours ago)

I would also like to add in the actual scientific undeniable evidence of reincarnation. I believe it would be hard to explain these cases if individual souls did not exist.



Edited by VeganHippy (08/12/17 04:39 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24547588 - 08/12/17 04:38 AM (10 days, 7 hours ago)

Well written, earnest and honest! This has been the biggest conceptual struggle of my life. When I began to explore deeply with psychedelics I had an experience that has never lost its influence. I sat to meditate after dinner and after I had come down from a mild microdot. I vanished. That is to say, my awareness became an Infinite expanse of self-luminous Clear Light that was simultaneously an ecstatic  "Unbearable Compassion." The empirical ego, the ahamkara disappeared. There was no Mark thinking "WOW! What is this?!" There was no sensory input, no thoughts, no memory. The Infinite Expanse WAS self-aware in a non-linguistic way. It was just the intuition of Being, of Identity, like the Divine Name "I AM" in the Tenach, or the same "I AM" that Jesus claimed to be in the gospel of John.

In a nanosecond, the Infinite Expanse of radiant Compassion suddenly became an Infinitesimal Point of piercing "Unbearable Compassion" in my Heart. Mark had returned. I later learned from Foundations of Tibetan Mysticism by Lama Govind that this experience is symbolized by two seed syllables: OM and HUM. OM is the Infinite into which out temporary separate I-sense dissolves, like Sir Edwin Arnold's poem The Light of Asia, "...the dewdrop slips into the Shining Sea..." HUM is something almost more amazing. It is the Infinite in the finite. It is like the mythic Incarnation of the Logos embodied in the man Jesus wherein 'God tabernacled among us.' The Christian mythic material then took on a deeper metaphysical understanding through this experience. However, there ate linguistic and conceptual difficulties at first sight between Buddhism and Christianity which can be resolved only perhaps in mystical experiences such as I described.

In Christianity, the single metaphysical postulate is that "God is love [agapé]." Only God is Eternal, hence this love is Eternal. God, Love, Light, Mercy, Compassion are all synonyms here. The urgency to practice Compassion in Buddhism or love in Christianity may well be because it is ONLY our love that is Eternal. People mistakenly 'believe' in immortality but Christianity does not teach this, it teaches "Eternal Life," which is the life of God. Entering into Eternal Life may well be the Realization of our ultimate identity with God. In Eastern Orthodox Christianity this process of mystical union is called theosis. Our limited identity cannot endure Eternity, it must perish, but Eternity is NOT endless duration. Duration is a quality of time. Eternity is a different order entirely in which there is neither extension in space or duration in time. Form cannot exist without these qualities. Thoughts cannot endure without linearity. So, what of our individuality would exist? Buddhism says that anything compounded eventually dissolves. WE are not a 'thing'. Consciousness is not a substance with physical properties. WE are not 'souls' in any sense of form. The biblical notion of soul is a mind-body.

So is there anything unique that endures in Eternity? I think not, but I think that we may enter into successively more subtle 'bodies,' like the various astral bodied beings in the film Ghost. The astral bodies yield the 'rainbow body' that Tibetan Buddhism speaks of. We enter Bardo realms in subtle bodies. Apparitions of the dead thousands of miles away from their discarded physical body can be attributed to these subtle bodies. But these must perish as well. In the film Ghost, the Patrick Swazy character enters Light at the end, his astral life ends as it enters the causal body, illustrated as white light. The causal body is said to be a field, not a body, but some form still remains to be transcended. White light becomes Clear Light (at least in the Tibetan Book of the Dead). It is from these subtle astral and etheric bodies that separate from the physical body at death that psychics are conversant with. Not the more subtle causal body, and beyond that it is Atman Realizing its identity with Brahman, in a Hindu idiom. It is Love Realizing that it is Love loving Love.

These concerns are the product of our discursive minds. I find it disturbing that my favorite Western philosopher Plotinus insisted that something unique exists Eternally. Christianity is so wedded to metaphor, midrash (Jewish allegorization) and mythic categories that aside from the experiences of the mystics we will continue to struggle with intellectual failures to apprehend the Transcendental Reality of Union, Non-Dualism. Resurrection is understood pictorially, which is to say mythologically. But what does resurrection Really mean except the limited ego dissolves (like the 'corn of wheat' which must die in the NT), and once again a Realization occurs wherein the human wakes up to remember his/her True Identity as God. Our life will evaporate like a dream (perhaps) and it is like it was all a dream in the mind of God. WE are each a dream-image in the mind of God that Realizes what we are in mystical union or at death.

I have not answered your query because there is no satisfactory answer to questions that are conceived by the dualistic, sense and reason bounded mode of rational thought. I suspect dying may be an awakening, that it will be all too familiar, that we'll get the cosmic joke that we have been no more than a dream image in the mind of God which was fooled into thinking we had independent existence. I like to think of death as sinking into a hot bath with the seed syllable AH. Our problem is that each of us thinks of ourselves like we're a separate wave without realizing that we're made from the very Ocean. We grow and rise and fear our disappearance on the Other Shore. We are totally fooled by our temporal form but fail to notice our ultimate and eternal formlessness. The tragedy will not be in everybody's death, it will be in our fear and suffering from our failure to Realize what is Ultimately Real. It will not be like the Rutger Hauer character Roy Batty in Blade Runner whose last words are regret for all his amazing experiences to be "lost in time, like tears in the rain." More like Sir Edwin Arnold's "...the dewdrop slips into the Shining Sea."



--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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OfflineVeganHippy
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24547643 - 08/12/17 06:14 AM (10 days, 6 hours ago)

Thank you Mark for the very in depth response you seem to have quite a bit of wisdom in this area. I am going to have to do some digging into the different things that you mentioned. I would be interested in your ideas on what the purpose may be of our individual life if “we” do not exist after it is over.


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24548702 - 08/12/17 07:01 PM (9 days, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

VeganHippy said:
The question that I keep coming back to is whether or not we exist as individuals after we die




Nope, move on. You exist as a spirit and a soul right now within your body and I wouldn't be taking its existence for granted by positing you'll only find it when you die.

I don't really hear anyone define what an ego is or where it physically is or what it anatomically looks like so the soul as I see it involves the mental processes of the neocortex, the HPA Axis, the adrenal as well as heart rate and blood pressure through the release of stress hormones like cortisol and adrenaline.

A certified medium is a certified cold reader.

Perhaps there is truth in us having individual souls and personalities BEFORE death. The most definitive answer I see for what happens after death to our bodies is that we return to the nutrients from whence we came, and if you take this from my view then so too does the mind follow this path.


--------------------
"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." - Richard Dawkins


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OfflineVeganHippy
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: sudly]
    #24548759 - 08/12/17 07:28 PM (9 days, 17 hours ago)








A certified medium is a certified cold reader.






Yes some mediums are definitely just fake cold readers but there is no way the medium I went to was fake. Without any information she provided me with exact details of how my grandmother died of a rare kidney disease and the specific symptoms that she had when dying along with other things such as her detailed looks and personality. On top of that she told me specifically where her ring was located in my house. How could she cold read that when I literally did not speak a word to her the entire reading? I showed up to her house without any previous information given to her so there is no way she could have received this information on me and there is also no way she could have guessed all these specific things so accurately. These details were all in one shot too she was not mentioning anyone or anything else that was not true.

In addition they use mediums in the secret service and in the FBI to locate bodies so you can not tell me those mediums are fake too. Also how can you explain all these occurrences of reincarnation if individual souls do not exist?? See the video I posted above of the professor at UVA who has done numerous research on reincarnation with very convincing evidence.</font></font>


Edited by VeganHippy (08/12/17 07:29 PM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24548845 - 08/12/17 08:27 PM (9 days, 16 hours ago)

Was the ring in her draw? I'm sorry this is how they operate.

Someone's going to win the lottery and some mediums will guess it right.



--------------------
"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." - Richard Dawkins


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OfflineVeganHippy
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: sudly]
    #24548905 - 08/12/17 08:52 PM (9 days, 15 hours ago)

The ring was in the attack of my garage in my grandmas dark green suit case. These were the exact words from the medium. Believe me I was not going to believe anything that could be made up or guessed but that many details cannot just be guessed right on accident. My story is not alone. There are hundreds of accounts of people havin similar experiences that cannot be explained. Just because there are fake mediums as you say does not mean that there also are not real ones. You can believe what you want but from my personal experience there is no denying that she had an ability to either communicate with the dead.


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OfflineVeganHippy
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24548921 - 08/12/17 08:59 PM (9 days, 15 hours ago)

In addition the medium I went to was not pulling me for answers or using those tactics. As I stated I did not speak a word the entire reading and her eyes were closed the whole time. She explained to me she keeps her eyes shut because it helps her tune in and that her eyes often move back and forth a lot as she is seeing what they show.


Edited by VeganHippy (08/12/17 09:16 PM)


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OfflineVeganHippy
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24549111 - 08/12/17 10:13 PM (9 days, 14 hours ago)


Even Terrance Mckenna one of the most infamous psychonauts has identified what he believes may be ancestor souls during his many journeys. He describes it as an ecology of souls and that shamanism depends on our communication with deceased ancestors.


Edited by VeganHippy (08/12/17 10:13 PM)


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OfflineLove_spirit
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24549165 - 08/12/17 10:48 PM (9 days, 13 hours ago)

You are the sun the moon the stars and everything. the division between yourself and another is an illusion. You are an eternal changeling. There is no death because the source of the experience is simply a point of awareness. You could only be afraid of being alone and separate when you are on the human level. Its like looking through a magnifying glass vs standing on the mountain top taking it all in. The nature of reality is shockingly beautiful when you're tuned in to experience it fully. Your mind is like a radio you just need to tune into the right frequency and all the love that ever was is yours.
People make all kinds of divisions between themselves and another. My family, your family, democrat, republican, child, adult.
release your mind until you're beyond all that
lose your mind and revel in the ecstasy 
The Human family
We share a heart:heart:


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OfflineVeganHippy
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: Love_spirit]
    #24549408 - 08/13/17 12:41 AM (9 days, 11 hours ago)

Could it be that we are all a part of the same fabric of the universe all connected under the love that makes up our souls but we can still be an individual able to have our own personality and grow as an individual throughout our life(s) here in this dimension and into the next? I remember the medium explaining the after life to me. She said it is a dimension beyond our comprehension that we can be anywhere at anytime and be in multiple places at once. She also described that we learn to communicate all over again because it is very different from how we communicate in this dimension. She explained that when spirits talk to her they show her things kinda like charades but they do not speak in language as we know it. If we are all the same exact thing then why would she describe the act of communicating with different entities in the afterlife? Terrance Mckenna described almost the same thing in his lectures about this form of communication with what he believed to be ancestors when he was on DMT or high levels of shrooms. She also said that when we die and enter into the afterlife that we continue to grow and evolve there but it is a much different process as things are much slower there in a way since time does not exist and that we can chose to come back again as in reincarnation.


Edited by VeganHippy (08/13/17 12:48 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24549606 - 08/13/17 04:01 AM (9 days, 8 hours ago)

They're not all guessed at once by the medium, there are a variety of techniques used from cold to warm reading and I'm sorry they took your money in your time of grief.

Quote:

Warm reading is a performance tool used by professional mentalists and psychic scam artists. While hot reading is the use of foreknowledge and cold reading works on reacting to the subject's responses, warm reading refers to the judicious use of Barnum effect statements.




Quote:

The Barnum effect, also called the Forer effect, is a common psychological phenomenon whereby individuals will give high accuracy ratings to descriptions of their personality that supposedly are tailored specifically to them but that are, in fact, vague and general enough to apply to a wide range of people.




e.g.
Quote:

  • “You have an intense desire to get people to accept and like you.”
  • “Sometimes you give too much effort on projects that don’t work out.”
  • “You prefer change and do not like to feel limited in what you can do.”
  • “You are an independent thinker who takes pride in doing things differently than others.”
  • “Sometimes you can be loud, outgoing, and a people person, but other times you can be quiet, shy, and reserved.”
  • “You can be overly harsh on yourself and very critical.”
  • “Although you do have some weaknesses, you try very hard to overcome them and be a better person.”
https://www.britannica.com/topic/Barnum-Effect




If I was a moderator I would move this thread to the spirituality forum but I'm not so here, think about how much of a part of the universe we truly are. The elements that make up your body were forged in stars but you are not a moon, nor a super heated mass of plasma, you are a being and a human living in and on the world.

[you can watch the whole thing or skip to 2:30 for the point I'm trying to make.


--------------------
"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." - Richard Dawkins


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OfflineVeganHippy
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: sudly]
    #24549730 - 08/13/17 05:33 AM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

None of them can explain the exact detail she gave of a green suitcase in my garage attack along with the many other things she said that I could list but I would rather not bore you. In addition they do not explain how mediums are able to find dead bodies that work for the FBI. Along with my grandfather having his own psychic communication with his father as I mentioned above.


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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24549755 - 08/13/17 05:50 AM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

VeganHippy said:
None of them can explain the exact detail she gave of a green suitcase in my garage attack along with the many other things she said that I could list but I would rather not bore you. In addition they do not explain how mediums are able to find dead bodies that work for the FBI. Along with my grandfather having his own psychic communication with his father as I mentioned above.





I believe all minds are connected, that's why you can feel someone's presence sometimes even if they can't see you. Its also why for instance when Ive been in  severe crises in my life, my mom had a dream in which she was shown the situation I was in. This happened twice and while I fully realize these sorts of anecdotes are not convincing to skeptics the main trouble for them is that their worldview doesn't allow for it to be possible. But if you believe all minds are connected (which I was shown several years ago by mushrooms) then it's actually not surprising at all that phenomena like this are possible.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra


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InvisibleFranniePilgrim
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24549758 - 08/13/17 05:57 AM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

The grand exestential crisis aka enlightenment, starts with you losing sense of individuality - experiencing the hell of what singularity would be like, though we might prescribe it as being enjoyable, and returning back to your authentic self. Being okay with all your shortcomings and learning to love on a deeper and more complex level. The "objective standard" that "society" portrays and uses to intimidate/belittle becomes a mere distant joke.

We want to be unique and have experiences no one else will ever have.

Personally I think the universe is waaayy too complex for any of us to understand. I've had and still have some crazy "divine" experiences.

Maybe the psychic medium part of this thread belongs elsewhere,

But I believe a topic concerning the confusion between authentic individuality and being egoistic does belong here, though.

Nothing is more egoistic than striving towards the possibility of only a singular "self" existing, I think.


Edited by FranniePilgrim (08/13/17 06:41 AM)


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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24549773 - 08/13/17 06:13 AM (9 days, 6 hours ago)

Quote:

VeganHippy said:
None of them can explain the exact detail she gave of a green suitcase in my garage attack along with the many other things she said that I could list but I would rather not bore you. In addition they do not explain how mediums are able to find dead bodies that work for the FBI. Along with my grandfather having his own psychic communication with his father as I mentioned above.



  • Good guess work
  • Quote:

    As Rick Bruno indicated, some police agencies have used psychics to investigate crimes. Most of them have turned out to be charlatans. In the few instances where the psychics produced some valid leads, they were thought to have gotten lucky. No psychic has proven to be reliable consistently. If there was one, they would have all the work they could handle.



  • Telepathy is a brave claim and I'm sure your dad's dad at least thought of his own father too.


Quote:

What it means to be me cannot be reduced to or uploaded to a software program running on a program however smart or sophisticated. We are biological flesh and blood animals whose conscious experiences are shaped at all levels by the biological mechanisms that keep us alive, just making computers smarter is not going to make them sentient.

Our own individual inner universe, our way of being conscious is only one possible way of being conscious and even human consciousness generally is a tiny region is a vast space of possible consciousnesses

Our individual self and world are unique to each of us but they are all grounded in biological mechanisms shared with many other creatures.

As with Copernicus we're not at the center of the universe, and with Darwin how we're related to all other creatures to the present day. With a greater sense of understanding comes a greater sense of wonder and a greater realisation that we are part of and not apart from the rest of nature.

And when the end of consciousness comes there's nothing to be afraid of, nothing at all.

- Anil Seth.




--------------------
"The universe that we observe has precisely the properties we should expect if there is, at bottom, no design, no purpose, no evil, no good, nothing but blind, pitiless indifference." - Richard Dawkins


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OfflineJaegar
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: sudly]
    #24549863 - 08/13/17 08:15 AM (9 days, 4 hours ago)

Damn so many great quotes. Love the new one by Smith. How do you find these kustbwell read?


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InvisibleFranniePilgrim
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Re: Are we as individual just a grand illusion? [Re: VeganHippy]
    #24549957 - 08/13/17 09:12 AM (9 days, 3 hours ago)

I'm just rambling now, but,

I also think every person should be able, and are able to believe and do what they want - don't want. This is just my opinion, but I think any attempt to bottle up this experience in any sort of 'start' or 'finish' line, 'right' or 'wrong', 'delusional' or 'rational' is quite dishonest.

But then again just my opinion. Life seems boring to me thinking I should restrict my thinking or imagination by any other person's opinion of what is or isn't possible...

I mean, there are far worse things in life posing actual more danger and suffering than how another person chooses to live and appreciate his/her life while they can.

Why would any one person truly want to restrict the imagination/expression/experience of another?

I say believe and don't believe everything you want. I mean...why not? Just don't be a dick or some shit.


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