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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
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When Terence McKenna Said This. . . 7
#24545221 - 08/11/17 01:43 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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I spent several days attempting to comprehend the limits of language and how language slowly becomes a sort of prison we all live in. Obviously language does some great things, but at what cost? I often imagine back to a time before language, and I wonder what a human back then thought when they looked at the night sky and shooting stars and beautiful colorful animals. Today we say "yeah, those are stars" or "that's a coral snake". But how incredible would the world be without the labels we lay on top of everything? What would the world look like to one without words? Could we even imagine it without making up words to explain it? 
Quote:
"Culture replaces authentic feeling with words. As an example of this, imagine an infant lying in its cradle, and the window is open, and into the room comes something, marvelous, mysterious, glittering, shedding light of many colors, movement, sound, a transformative hierophany of integrated perception and the child is enthralled and then the mother comes into the room and she says to the child, “that’s a bird, baby, that’s a bird,” instantly the complex wave of the angel peacock iridescent trans-formative mystery is collapsed, into the word. All mystery is gone, the child learns this is a bird, this is a bird, and by the time we’re five or six years old all the mystery of reality has been carefully tiled over with words. This is a bird, this is a house, this is the sky, and we seal ourselves in within a linguistic shell of dis-empowered perception."
This brings me to another realization, the only place left for humans where we can see things we have no words for and truly experience the awe of this lack of words, is in the psychedelic experience. The most common thing for someone to say after a DMT or Mushroom trip is "I don't even know how to explain it", typically followed by some shallow and pale attempted explanation amounting to nothing more than a partial skeleton of the still fresh experience.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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beforethedawn
Registered: 06/19/16
Posts: 1,859
Last seen: 4 years, 5 months
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl]
#24545228 - 08/11/17 02:07 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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You're on the right track in my opinion.
Try to recognise every glance is the first act of Creation. The first moment. It's never the same.
This culture is strange. It might have been formulated to suppress the truth, who knows. The point is, the only real life there is, is within yourself. As far as you play in the culture you are running in circles, idling.
We're not even supposed to die. I don't think human history has begun yet.
-------------------- Hostile humankind Can't you see you're fucking blind?
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl] 1
#24545321 - 08/11/17 05:25 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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I think the word 'bird' collapsing mystery is a gross overgeneralisation, I mean there are a wide variety of birds out there with some astonishing plumages, behaviours and adaptations. And then there's even more mystery when one dives into community ecology and the relationships that exist between birds, vegetation and habitat complexity as well as invertebrate abundance.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
Edited by sudly (08/11/17 05:32 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl] 4
#24545326 - 08/11/17 05:34 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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You know Terrence was a star, and the weight of his words has been amplified by stardom, but I find almost everything he says to be plain dumb.
first of all there really is no distinction between authentic feeling and feeling It is incredibly manipulative to his listeners to introduce the suspicion of authenticity of others' feelings, manipulative and idiotic. (however it does feed "us and them-ism" to support a sense of belonging to his club - and that, is a subversive from the get go - a politics of no platform at all - just follow-me-ism - come to my party and you wont be a schnook)
Secondly, words are convenient keys to memories of experience, as well as ways of classifying things enabling thinking abstractly. If YOU do not revisit your memories then they fade, and all that remains are a few scrambled words, but if you do revisit your memories then they keep fresh and rich. Don't blame words for amnesia or memory loss, or even for loss of contact with life.
Thirdly, the essence of word based non-feeling, is in the amount of time we spend trying to unravel the meaning of someone's words. During the time we are perplexed while decoding someone's meaning, we are basically out of connection with our senses.
Learning to savor great memories of experiences (imagined or otherwise), and learning to limit how perplexed you let yourself get (deciphering words etc.) are great ways to keep the magic alive.
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Jaegar
Formless One



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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: redgreenvines]
#24545633 - 08/11/17 09:11 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Fantastic.
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Khancious
da Crow



Registered: 12/05/12
Posts: 628
Loc: Behind Everything
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Jaegar]
#24545707 - 08/11/17 09:58 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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To me, language is an extension of the process of creation. Manipulating sound and neurological activity to twist and bend into vision, understanding and recollection.
I see what you're implying RGV and agree as long as there is transcendence without which I think we are stuck within patterns impressed upon us since birth.
Terence's premise is valid, it's just up to me (us) to experience life beyond conceptualization and dawn gets that. We are in a constant flux of change and creation, rowing consciousness down the merrily stream of a dream.
What do you want to do with it?
-------------------- I am that, which is.
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Tmethyl
Smear in the shale


Registered: 07/16/12
Posts: 16,431
Loc: Florida
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#24545725 - 08/11/17 10:08 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
sudly said: I think the word 'bird' collapsing mystery is a gross overgeneralisation, I mean there are a wide variety of birds out there with some astonishing plumages, behaviours and adaptations. And then there's even more mystery when one dives into community ecology and the relationships that exist between birds, vegetation and habitat complexity as well as invertebrate abundance.
Of course, it tends to be that the more you learn about any organism the more mysterious things become again, Terence even said something like "The first time I went to the jungle, I had no Botany, and the jungle was green. After I learned Botany I began to see different plants and I was able to classify them into certain families based on their leaf shape, stems, etc.".
I don't think this is his point in the original quote I posted though, it was more into how words themselves are very pale reflections of the actual thing you are experiencing. He is just using the bird generalization as an example to demonstrate how a multifaceted experience, such as encountering a majestic colorful animal can be collapsed into a single word, bird.
My original question is how would the world look if you didn't have all these labels for everything? Can you even imagine walking through a forest not knowing what a tree was? I had a similar experience on mushrooms once, I was several miles deep into a forest alone and I took a large dose of mushrooms, a few hours in I could not tell my hand from the pine trees I was laying under. This failure of language opened an entirely new world. I couldn't even identify what my hand was anymore. When I looked at a pine tree it was not a pine tree, I didn't know what it was. Not having a label for something tended to made it look so fresh and mysterious. After some more time like this you are hit with the realization that the tree is not a separate organism, but that it's a part of all life, and my hand was part of that same life. If I would have been able to label my hand as a "hand" it would be been drawn out of the whole and back into separation.
Quote:
redgreenvines said: first of all there really is no distinction between authentic feeling and feeling It is incredibly manipulative to his listeners to introduce the suspicion of authenticity of others' feelings, manipulative and idiotic. (however it does feed "us and them-ism" to support a sense of belonging to his club - and that, is a subversive from the get go - a politics of no platform at all - just follow-me-ism - come to my party and you wont be a schnook)
One of Terences' core messages was not to follow him. Have you ever read any of his books or did you merely base your judgment of him based on a few random things you heard?
"My message is still the same, and it has nothing to do with me. The message is, 'Don’t follow me, eat a shroom!' Unlock the cultural box and check out what’s going on. Your nervous system, your sexuality, and your vegetable friends provide an antidote to cultural dystopia, alienation, and victimization. Don’t be a victim. Don’t consume. Produce art. Keep your powder dry, one hand over your wallet, the other hand over your asshole — this the way to proceed with this society, I think."
"if you want a teacher, try a waterfall"
His message is exactly opposite to what you think it was.
-------------------- ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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Jaegar
Formless One



Registered: 05/04/09
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl]
#24545742 - 08/11/17 10:18 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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T words also expand our mental filter of perceptual options by stimulating inquiry of a object or subject. To say words constrain or not dignify a object is misleading.
Edited by Jaegar (08/11/17 10:21 AM)
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl] 1
#24545776 - 08/11/17 10:34 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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I read books when the content that I sample is good.
On this site and IRL every sample from Terrence is defective, unpalatable, or obviously wrong.
samples from the bible are similar.
the quotes and photos are not compelling to me, so no, I have not bought or borrowed or read any McKenna books.
His widow gives talks on Salvia Divinorum which I am a fan of, but not of her, her discourse is too slow and superstitious.
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Green7Alchemist
Draco



Registered: 12/28/16
Posts: 2,171
Loc: Mayami
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: redgreenvines]
#24545897 - 08/11/17 11:28 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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-------------------- Trip 7 THUG - ISLAM - BIBLE streets disciple CHRIST IS KING. Sunshine said: "Gangsters are super heroes"
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Near Dylan
Shitpost Artist


Registered: 07/29/15
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl] 2
#24545900 - 08/11/17 11:30 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Ever seen the movie Arrival??
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Near Dylan]
#24545987 - 08/11/17 12:09 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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gorgeous film
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PatrickKn


Registered: 07/10/11
Posts: 20,561
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: redgreenvines] 1
#24546020 - 08/11/17 12:30 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Here's an interesting talk on the color blue. There are not many known accounts of people describing the color blue in ancient texts from Greece. The idea being that the idea of blue kind of evolved with language over the past few millennia, and didn't really become something that needed a word (or least wasn't commonly used to where we can look back on it) until blue dyes became widely used much later. It's a good 20 minute listen, somewhat relevant to the topic. Not sure how accurate it might be, but the points they bring up are interesting ones. Things like native cultures without common language describing the sky as white instead of blue even today. Interesting stuff.
http://www.radiolab.org/story/211213-sky-isnt-blue/
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl] 1
#24546689 - 08/11/17 05:32 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Tmethyl said:
Quote:
sudly said: I think the word 'bird' collapsing mystery is a gross overgeneralisation, I mean there are a wide variety of birds out there with some astonishing plumages, behaviours and adaptations. And then there's even more mystery when one dives into community ecology and the relationships that exist between birds, vegetation and habitat complexity as well as invertebrate abundance.
Of course, it tends to be that the more you learn about any organism the more mysterious things become again, Terence even said something like "The first time I went to the jungle, I had no Botany, and the jungle was green. After I learned Botany I began to see different plants and I was able to classify them into certain families based on their leaf shape, stems, etc.".
I don't think this is his point in the original quote I posted though, it was more into how words themselves are very pale reflections of the actual thing you are experiencing. He is just using the bird generalization as an example to demonstrate how a multifaceted experience, such as encountering a majestic colorful animal can be collapsed into a single word, bird.
My original question is how would the world look if you didn't have all these labels for everything? Can you even imagine walking through a forest not knowing what a tree was? I had a similar experience on mushrooms once, I was several miles deep into a forest alone and I took a large dose of mushrooms, a few hours in I could not tell my hand from the pine trees I was laying under. This failure of language opened an entirely new world. I couldn't even identify what my hand was anymore. When I looked at a pine tree it was not a pine tree, I didn't know what it was. Not having a label for something tended to made it look so fresh and mysterious. After some more time like this you are hit with the realization that the tree is not a separate organism, but that it's a part of all life, and my hand was part of that same life. If I would have been able to label my hand as a "hand" it would be been drawn out of the whole and back into separation.
I think there comes a point when the mystery of what an animal is can be understood, like the difference between a marsupial and an ectotherm. When I learnt of how do identify a variety of local plant species I began to notice them around the place and more so appreciate their existence, despite the name label word we have placed upon them.
Surprise seems to be a decent enough reflection of the actual thing we can experience. A feeling of hunger, and the feeling of the need to go to the toilet, these words seems like a decent reflection of actual experiences to me.
If you only use a single word like bird then of course you probably won't get a multifaceted view. Because you could say the sea faring bird, the terrestrial bird, the ocean swimming bird, the giant bird, the colourful bird, the long beaked bird, the wide eyed bird, the long tailed bird, the nest constructing bird, the parenting bird, the flying bird, the hunting bird, and the family bird etc.
Without labels for the things to behold or be experienced I don't think I'd be anything more than a wild and untamed creature, like a cat licking his nuts after eating the guts of a squirrel, survival and reproduction would probably be my motivating forces and I'd do so as they naturally are. Eating grass, berries, fruits and maybe any critters I came across.
I can imagine being on mushrooms and being in a state of adhering peace, calm, caring and requite.
Even nano-diamonds are a part of life with the ancient celestial carbon they contain.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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LRG
Supernaut

Registered: 04/04/16
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: sudly] 2
#24547025 - 08/11/17 08:22 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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I am a fan of his style of philosophy. I think that was the realm he succeeded at most. His message was simple yet somehow lost on almost everyone who listened to him, which was: Don't listen to me, experience it yourself. His take on culture and ego is, in my view, a good perspective to have.
-------------------- "I found it is the small everyday deeds of ordinary folk that keep the darkness at bay… small acts of kindness and love.” - Gandalf The Grey. "It is the mark of an educated mind to entertain a thought without accepting it." - Aristotle "I like to think of Jesus like with giant eagle's wings, and singin' lead vocals for Lynyrd Skynyrd with like an angel band and I'm in the front row and I'm HAMMERED DRUNK!" - Cal Naughton Jr. AKA The Magic Man. Abracadabra homes! "Each tear is a drop of poison released." - Anonymous "Could it be you're afraid of what your friends might say if they knew you believe in God above? They should realize before they criticize that God is the only way to Love."
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: LRG]
#24547744 - 08/12/17 06:44 AM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Pretty sure Terence McKenna's sparkling idea was the magic ape theory that posited psilocybin has a role to play in the development of higher cognition and control over innate impulses.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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redgreenvines
irregular verb


Registered: 04/08/04
Posts: 37,528
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: sudly]
#24548280 - 08/12/17 01:30 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sam Woolfe @ http://www.samwoolfe.com/2013/05/terence-mckennas-stoned-ape-theory.html:
Terence also remarked in an interview that the Stoned Ape Theory proposed in Food of the Gods was “consciously propaganda”, as a way to persuade people that “drugs are natural, ancient and responsible for human nature” and not “…alien, invasive and distorting to human nature.” In other words, it was in a sense fabricated to promote his own agenda.
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sudly
Darwin's stagger


Registered: 01/05/15
Posts: 10,797
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: redgreenvines]
#24548682 - 08/12/17 04:50 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Quote:
In his book, Food of the Gods (1992), Terence McKenna describes one of his many controversial ideas. This idea, known as the 'Stoned Ape Theory', is about how our ancestors evolved from an upright walking ape into an upright walking ape who could produce language and create art. The theory basically says that magic mushrooms sped up the evolution of our ancestors and that, ultimately, the psychedelic experience is responsible for the origin of culture.
The problem with this line of argument is that it relies on a series of assumptions which, while possible, are not backed up by convincing evidence. Perhaps magic mushrooms in low doses could increase visual acuity, but McKenna goes on to assume that magic mushrooms grew where our ancestors lived, that our ancestors ate these mushrooms, that they hunted under their effect, that they hunted more successfully, and so on. The argument basically consists of: “If this is possible, then so is this, and this, and this, etc.” McKenna's theory is undoubtedly imaginative, creative and compelling, but each of his assumptions beg the question: where is the evidence for this?
It also appears that McKenna misrepresented the findings of Fischer and Hill. In their study, what they actually discovered was that psilocybin changes perception, not visual acuity or edge detection – the drug changes how things look, not how clearly they are defined. In fact, in a paper by these two scientists they remark that the change in perception caused by a low dose of psilocybin “may not be conducive to the survival of the organism." This conclusion is completely at odds with McKenna's interpretation of their findings. It seems he may have skewed their conclusion in order to support his own ideas about human evolution. Furthermore, Fischer and Hill didn't even study psilocybin at low doses, but at medium doses.
Quote:
My own view is that McKenna's Stoned Ape Theory is entertaining as a narrative or story, but, in the end, it is not supported by reliable evidence. This is not to rule out the possibility that McKenna's theory could one day be vindicated – after all, his theory is still within the realm of possibility and is even plausible.
Some say that eating magic mushrooms could have been part of an epigenetic process. An epigenetic process is when an environmental stimulus (e.g. eating a certain quantity of magic mushrooms) changes how genes are expressed, as opposed to changes being made in the gene sequence itself. This change in gene expression could have been advantageous for our ancestors. On the other hand, even if ingesting magic mushrooms did change the function of the brain or behaviour in some advantageous way, this would not be produce inheritable changes through generations. http://www.samwoolfe.com/2013/05/terence-mckennas-stoned-ape-theory.html
Although the above says that if epigenetic changes occurred they wouldn't be inherited or inheritable, this seems to say otherwise.
Quote:
We used to think that a new embryo's epigenome was completely erased and rebuilt from scratch. But this isn't completely true. Some epigenetic tags remain in place as genetic information passes from generation to generation, a process called epigenetic inheritance.
Epigenetic inheritance is an unconventional finding. It goes against the idea that inheritance happens only through the DNA code that passes from parent to offspring. It means that a parent's experiences, in the form of epigenetic tags, can be passed down to future generations.
As unconventional as it may be, there is little doubt that epigenetic inheritance is real. In fact, it explains some strange patterns of inheritance geneticists have been puzzling over for decades. http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/epigenetics/inheritance/
Plus overall I think Mckenna's idea was a good one because it got people thinking about the hard questions of consciousness from a viewpoint not often or at all presented before.
-------------------- I am whatever Darwin needs me to be.
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Kurt
Thinker, blinker, writer, typer.

Registered: 11/26/14
Posts: 1,688
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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl]
#24549168 - 08/12/17 08:50 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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Everybody knows that like many activists/ideologues, Terrence Mckenna exaggerated the relationship between human and plant as an empowering tool, or cognitive faculty "enhancer". This has little to do with his particular theories, and their supposed validity IMO.
A linguistic concept to Terrence is a lot like that too. It is a dojigger whatsit or dohickey that morphs into ideas and discussion. Listen to his multisyllabular kinesis, and the kinds of things he likes to roll off his tongue. It is external, a cultural artifact a lot of times, not particularly based on the internal truth of the given idea. But it is entertaining...
Language is like a net, and it contains and classifies and occasionally becomes slavery. He is right that this, as a general tendency happens. I am surprised how many people here perceive a critique at the level of conceptualism/symbol/language as if this were a threat to scientific rationalism or something. They are not the same, but I guess the squeaky wheel gets the grease.
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Love_spirit
Circle Of Power



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Re: When Terence McKenna Said This. . . [Re: Tmethyl] 1
#24549233 - 08/12/17 09:23 PM (6 years, 5 months ago) |
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I was standing on a mountain watching the sunset. When I was trapped in the mind I would think about how far away the earth is from the sun. my mind was like a magnifying glass. So narrow it could only focus on one thing at a time. After taking psychedelics all the wonder and magic returned. I could experience the sunset. I was free of the inner analyst. It was oh so beautiful and I was filled with wonder. I realized how dark my days had become so cold and calculating. A strategist with with a heart of coal. I'm not not exaggerating when I say all the wonder had been sapped from me. I had stood in front of the grand canyon and was not moved in any capacity. Sitting in a dark cellar in front of my computer screen or being at one of the most beautiful land marks on earth where of absolutely equal value. Before my heart became opened it was like being a man on his last legs dying of thirst. Absolutely suffocating. I had played with cutting myself and OD'ing dancing around suicide because I couldn't feel. The first time I took shrooms I said very little but I remember everything I said. "at last I can breathe" "excuse me friends but I cant socialize right now" " I can see through this wall into the infinite" "THIS CHANGES EVERYTHING"
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