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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2455864 - 03/20/04 11:13 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

not at all. but I consider self-defense through violence the very last option, in the rare circumstance that it is an option at all.

people have tried to slit my throat and break my neck before, and I had to use force against them. And I was very sad about it afterwards. These days I will go to any lengths to avoid a fight. Its not that I'm a pussy. I actually have 1 formal black belt and a shitload of informal martial arts training. But I respect the fact that my actions have consequences and I will not use my abilities against anyone unless it is absolutely, positively necessary. If that means being humiliated, stolen from, or abused, then so be it. I will use violence if and only if my life is in danger. And even then I will question whether it was the right thing to do.

Remember:

"Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent" -Isaac Asimov


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2455902 - 03/20/04 11:37 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

How else do you fight those intent on using violence against you except violence?

If it is fair for an individual to protect himself by using force, then it is also fair for a government to use it to protect its citizens. I'll agree with you that there have been situations we've been involved with that we shouldn't have been, though I don't believe the current ones fall in that category.

In an utopian fantasy, you can hope for diplomatic solution to every malady, but we both know it doesn't work that way.

A well prepared military is the best deterrent to need to use it, but when needed, we must be willing.

You participating in those martial arts classes is no different than someone joining the military. You both sought to provide protection. A government, which is representative of the people, must provide a military to protect itself. Criticizing them is a bit hypocritical.


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I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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InvisibleXlea321
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2456344 - 03/21/04 03:01 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

How else do you fight those intent on using violence against you except violence?

Check out Gandhi.


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InvisibleZero7a1
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: Swami]
    #2456409 - 03/21/04 03:44 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I dont get it though. I wonder if its that very reason that the "terrorists" are pissed off in the first place. Some will say they support it, but how many people is that? Im sure there will still be some pissed off people because they are really fucked up from bomb shells going off, who couldnt get treatment. These people will turn to the terrorists to vent their anger.

its a turntable of shittiness.


--------------------
What?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2457787 - 03/21/04 05:04 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Just a quick question for Superman. You're walking home from a consiousness raising session in a seedy part of town and you see someone in an alley getting all over this girl and she's screaming and he smacks her in the mouth and keeps shredding her clothes and he smacks her some more, and some more, and some more. What do you do when he tells you to mind your own fucking business and get lost or he'll kick you're ass too?


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2457796 - 03/21/04 05:06 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Is that quote Hari Seldon or Salvor Hardin?


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2457945 - 03/21/04 06:02 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

How else do you fight those intent on using violence against you except violence?





I can try to communicate with them and get them to understand that using violnce is not in their best interest. If they are slow to understand, I will patronize them to a point, but if it comes to them or me, I will protect myself. I will also try to figure out what is causing the urge for them to be violent and if there is anything I can do within reason to help quell that urge, I will do it.

I'm also not afraid to spend an entire fight blocking and attempting to restrain. And i only wiegh 110. I'm also not afraid to run away and let people think I'm a pussy. Its easy to kill a man with your hands if you know what you're doing. Whats hard is running away from a fight and being thought weak when you know you could have killed the dude.

Quote:

In an utopian fantasy, you can hope for diplomatic solution to every malady, but we both know it doesn't work that way.





It doesn't have to be a fantasy. Ruling out the possibility entirely- now that's a fantasy. and a dangerous one at that. Don't give up your personal power by participating in the same thing you are fighting against, no matter how much it seems like you have to.

Quote:

A well prepared military is the best deterrent to need to use it, but when needed, we must be willing.





I would rather have a well-prepared populace.

Quote:

You participating in those martial arts classes is no different than someone joining the military. You both sought to provide protection.




uhhhh... You couldnt have thought that statement through very well.

how is training oneself in the martial arts different than joining the military? Let me count the ways:

1. You are there for you and not someone else
2. No commitment is made except the ones you make to yourself on your own terms. No one is going to shoot you or ruin your record if you try to leave.
3. You get to choose what you learn and how you apply what you learn.
4. Nothing is expected of you except a desire to learn and basic physical fitness.
5. You are not expected to swear alliengance to anyone.
6. You will never be expected to kill anyone for your sensei
7. The mental conditioning involved is all voluntary. It is not forced on students. Students may embark upon these mental disciplines only if they are cosnciously aware of what they are and choose to do them individually.
8. Martial Arts is a hobby, not a profession (unless you are a teacher or a really elite tournament fighter)
9. Martial arts does not take over someone's entire life. Your sensei does not wake you up at 5 AM every morning.
10. Most schools that teach martial arts are in no way affiliated with the government.

there. thats 10 ways they are completely different. If you want, I could probably come up with 100 more.



Quote:

A government, which is representative of the people, must provide a military to protect itself.




First of all, governments dont necessarily represent people. That may be their purpose, but they dont always do a great job of it. Second of all, I think that people should learn to protect and rely on themselves and leave the government out of it as much as possible.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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InvisibleDoctorJ
Minister to the Damned
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2457966 - 03/21/04 06:11 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

zappaisgod said:
Just a quick question for Superman.  You're walking home from a consiousness raising session in a seedy part of town and you see someone in an alley getting all over this girl and she's screaming and he smacks her in the mouth and keeps shredding her clothes and he smacks her some more, and some more, and some more.  What do you do when he tells you to mind your own fucking business and get lost or he'll kick you're ass too?




"Let me ask you a question mayor:  You're soft on criminals.  But what would you do if it was your house that was robbed,  your family that was tied up in the basement with socks in their mouths, you try to open the door but there's too much  blood on the knob... " :lol:

Hypothetical questions like that are a great debating tactic because they are so difficult to answer, especially when its some outrageous situation and no one really knows what they would do unless they were there. 

but yeah I would try to break it up without hurting either one of them.  I would try to give the girl a chance to run away by restraining the male. 

Quote:

Is that quote Hari Seldon or Salvor Hardin?





I think it has Hardin, but its been about 4 years since I read those books, so I could be wrong.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2458505 - 03/21/04 09:28 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I can try to communicate with them and get them to understand that using violnce is not in their best interest. If they are slow to understand, I will patronize them to a point, but if it comes to them or me, I will protect myself. I will also try to figure out what is causing the urge for them to be violent and if there is anything I can do within reason to help quell that urge, I will do it.

I'm also not afraid to spend an entire fight blocking and attempting to restrain. And i only wiegh 110. I'm also not afraid to run away and let people think I'm a pussy. Its easy to kill a man with your hands if you know what you're doing. Whats hard is running away from a fight and being thought weak when you know you could have killed the dude.




But as you said, you will protect yourself. Of course diplomatic solutions must be tried and exhausted, but then if they're still intent on aggression, you must be prepared to fight back.

Quote:

It doesn't have to be a fantasy. Ruling out the possibility entirely- now that's a fantasy. and a dangerous one at that. Don't give up your personal power by participating in the same thing you are fighting against, no matter how much it seems like you have to.





Sometime in future, maybe, but for now, in the conditions that exist, there will always be those who will use violence to attempt to achieve their goals.

Quote:

I would rather have a well-prepared populace.




As this has already been covered, I won't go into detail, but a militia can't overcome a properly prepared military in this day.

Quote:

uhhhh... You couldnt have thought that statement through very well.

how is training oneself in the martial arts different than joining the military? Let me count the ways:...(etc.)





The point in which is was no different was that you took the steps neccesary to prepare yourself to be able to better protect you. Which is exactly what a government does by preparing a military.

I didn't say all governements were representitive of the people, but in ours, it is (even though they don't represent us very well.)

But you have to look at a representitive government as a personal entitity. They also have the right to protect themselves. I don't care whether or not you agree with the war in Iraq. That's irrelevant. But just as you said you have the right to protect yourself, so does the governement. To criticize those who serve in the military the way you have is ignorant.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2459902 - 03/22/04 11:52 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DoctorJ said:
I believe that. And I refuse to see these people as martyrs. They are part of the problem.




yeah, I really got into this issue on another message board. a poster was trying to organize a care package donation type deal to send troops much needed 2 ply toilet paper and video games. I wasn't quite as mean about it, but yeah, I understand your sentiment. war is supposed to be hell; being in hellish situations makes people think about just what the fuck they're doing. video games allow them to escape the reality of what they're doing.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: TheOneYouKnow]
    #2459910 - 03/22/04 11:55 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

TheOneYouKnow said:
Quote:

DoctorJ said:
Scumfucks like you should be run through with a fucking rusty bayonet. Why don't you post your address here so those of us that served can some talk to you about your thoughts on how you feel about American servicemen dying.  The reason that you got your pussy self pushed around in high school was, you guessed it, becuase you are a pussy. Thats the same reason you are critizing (anonymously, of coursE) those that aren't.





I got the same sort of reaction (again, a bit more politely, but the same sentiment) down to the "lets meet in person so you can tell my wife and kids why you don't support our troops etc etc" with implied violence against my person.

people really freak out when any arguement "against our troops" is brought up, even the "liberals".  hmm.... war time fervor.  :rolleyes:


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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OfflineMalachi
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: Zero7a1]
    #2459925 - 03/22/04 12:00 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Zero7a1 said:
You should just send them an email back with this link.

http://aztlan.net/iraqichildrenhorror.htm






dear god, that is so graphic. how sure are you of the credibility of these photos? this who zionist/neocon connection is getting more and more mainstream press despite the "anti-semitic" (a retarded term, since arabs are also semitic peoples..) labeling of anyone who puts such a connection forth.


--------------------
The ultimate meaning of our being can only be fulfilled in the paradoxical leap beyond the tragic-demonic frustration. It is a leap from our side, but it is the self-surrendering presence of the Ground of Being from the other side.
- Paul Tillich


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InvisibleJonnyOnTheSpot
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2460083 - 03/22/04 01:18 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

give me a break man....that's not propaganda. I don't see how you could really think it is. It's just asking you to remember them and pray for them.

and btw..not everyone who joins the military is a mindless killing machine who loves george bush. I know people in the military who  hate george bush. And it's not like everyone in then military "decides to become a proffesional bully" some need money for college and the military offers to pay for it all. Some people really do think they make a positive difference in this world by joining the military. They may be wrong but at least their hearts are in the right place.

You say you don't have any respect for people who decide to join the military? thats fucked up...you must have a couple screws loose or something. This country probably wouldn't exist today if people hadn't joined the military at certain points in time. The only reason you have the freedom to bitch and moan about president bush  is because "some people decided to become professional bullies"

:shake: Thats pretty sad that you feel this way


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InvisibleEvolving
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Registered: 10/01/02
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2460258 - 03/22/04 02:16 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

JonnyOnTheSpot said:
and btw..not everyone who joins the military is a mindless killing machine who loves george bush. I know people in the military who hate george bush.



My brother is in S.F. as a reservist and has recently returned home after 2 years of active duty. He is not fond of George Bush (to put it politely) and is going to vote for a third party or independent candidate (he doesn't know who yet). He fully supports the government's actions in Afghanistan but believes that actions in Iraq are merely for the benefit of the military industrial complex and Israeli lobbies... I guess that makes him a bleeding heart liberal.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleDoctorJ
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: JonnyOnTheSpot]
    #2460291 - 03/22/04 02:29 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

give me a break man....that's not propaganda. I don't see how you could really think it is.



Quote:

yourdictionary.com said:
Propaganda:
1. The systematic propagation of a doctrine or cause or of information reflecting the views and interests of those advocating such a doctrine or cause.
2. Material disseminated by the advocates or opponents of a doctrine or cause: wartime propaganda.




I don't see how you could think that this isn't propaganda.

Quote:

and btw..not everyone who joins the military is a mindless killing machine who loves george bush.




agreed. but they are all people who have foolishly decided to use violence in support of the government.

Quote:

some need money for college and the military offers to pay for it all.




nobody "needs" money for college. College is a luxury. And even if they did need the money that bad, there are many other ways to get it. Get a job. Apply for grants and scholarships. Like I said earlier, the people who join the military so they can get into college are not without blame. They are using violence as a way to get ahead in life.

Quote:

They may be wrong but at least their hearts are in the right place.




The road to Hell is paved with good intentions.

Quote:

This country probably wouldn't exist today if people hadn't joined the military at certain points in time. The only reason you have the freedom to bitch and moan about president bush is because "some people decided to become professional bullies"




You might want to hop in your Delorean and go back to 1984 with that cliche rhetoric. Its been played out in the 04.

Violence would not exist if it weren't for the individuals that make the decision to use it to get ahead in life.


--------------------
Deep in the heart of Central Texas
lurks a Doktor
SM tool
Native Dallas brick-chopper...


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: DoctorJ]
    #2460692 - 03/22/04 04:23 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Listen, if you want to preach no violence, fine. We need idealists.

But it all boils down to the fact that there are people in this world that are intent on using aggressions as a means to achieve their goals. If you can wave your magic wand and suddenly make everyone feel the same way all at once then problem solved. But since we can't it's going to take a gradual change. So you can remain idealistic and try and change human nauture, we need it, but in order for you to remain alive while you do this, you need realists who are willing to protect you.

But don't preach your message at the expense of those who keep you safe.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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InvisibleSwami
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2460727 - 03/22/04 04:33 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

But don't preach your message at the expense of those who keep you safe.

But if our military action in Iraq breeds a new generation of terrorists, how will that make us safer?

But if our military action leads to civil war in Iraq and disrupts the region worse than ever, how will that make us safer?


--------------------



The proof is in the pudding.


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OfflineHagbardCeline
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: Swami]
    #2460752 - 03/22/04 04:39 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Terrorists existed long before we ever went to Iraq. These people would exist regardless.

Had we just stayed here and done nothing, it would have emboldened them. They would've labeled us cowards, their suspicions proved, and we would likely begin to face a similar onslaught as Israel.

No matter what, they would be there, and I for one would prefer the battle to take place in their front yard.


--------------------
I keep it real because I think it is important that a highly esteemed individual such as myself keep it real lest they experience the dreaded spontaneous non-existance of no longer keeping it real. - Hagbard Celine


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2460798 - 03/22/04 04:49 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
... it all boils down to the fact that there are people in this world that are intent on using aggressions as a means to achieve their goals.



Such people are also setting the goals for our military (I am referring to the civilian 'leadership').

Would you care to offer your input in this thread?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: Military Propaganda [Re: HagbardCeline]
    #2460825 - 03/22/04 04:55 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

HagbardCeline said:
Had we just stayed here and done nothing, it would have emboldened them.



Iraq is not Al Qaeda.

Quote:

They would've labeled us cowards, their suspicions proved, and we would likely begin to face a similar onslaught as Israel.



Well, we've seen how effective Israel has been in putting an end to terrorism. How many years have they gone without terrorist attacks? Would you call their policy a success? The U.S. seems to be following a policy similar to Israel's in that it is likely to fuel the growth of terrorism. But worse, we are attacking those who had nothing to do with terrorist attacks on the U.S.


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


Edited by Evolving (03/22/04 04:59 PM)


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