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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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My First Electric Vehicle Conversion * 2
    #24527244 - 08/03/17 11:07 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

Okay, so I've been planning to convert my car to electric for some time, but now is the time I'm actually going to do it.  I'm going to document the process here as I suspect it will take quite awhile.

To start with, the vehicle is a 2001 Mr2 Spyder:



The goals of the conversion are as follows:

1. 0-60 mph in 5 seconds or less
2. Range of 100 miles or more on a charge
3. Street legal/carpool lane eligible
4. Maintain stock handling characteristics.
5. Maintain all creature comforts.

Limiting factors of the conversion:

1. Weight - the vehicle has a GVWR of 2649 lbs. 
2. Room - Very limited room available for batteries.
3. Budget - Undetermined as of now, but I suspect this will get expensive


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Enlil]
    #24527276 - 08/03/17 11:24 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

So, there are some unknowns that I'll have to deal with as the project progresses, but the largest unknown is how much weight capacity I have to work with.  I'll be losing the engine, fuel tank, radiator, exhaust, etc., but that's not going to give me enough weight back for the motor and the batteries I'll be installing.  To figure this out, I plan on removing all of the unnecessary items and weighing the vehicle like that.  This should give me some idea of how much I have to work with.

Of course, there is always the possibility of going a little bit over the gvwr, but that's going to mean upgrading springs and brakes, and it runs the risk of compromising handling if done improperly.

So, the first thing I need to do is choose a motor.  This will give me an idea of weight, size, etc.  Also, this is the beginning of the mechanical part of the project.  I've decided to go with an AC motor because of the safety and efficiency as compared to DC.  The only real question now is how much torque do I need and what motor will supply that?

So, to calculate the torque I need, I'm going to need to find the formula(e) to determine the necessary torque at the wheel to produce sufficient acceleration to reach 60mph in 5 seconds, and then divide that by the gear ratios in the transmission.

Ideally, this would take into account weight, rolling friction and air drag.


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OfflineGrowrow
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Enlil]
    #24527333 - 08/03/17 11:47 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

A noble endeavor, but why reinvent the wheel, so to speak? The Spyder is a sweet ride as is. I wouldn't mess with it.

There are a lot of electric and hybrid cars out now and more interesting ones coming. Probably cost a lot less in the long run.

But then you would be the only one with an electric Spyder. I guess there's that.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Growrow]
    #24527406 - 08/03/17 12:12 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

I guess my response is why not do it?  It's more about the journey than the destination in this case.


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Enlil]
    #24528213 - 08/03/17 07:07 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

I'm trying to break this down into manageable steps.  I haven't found a formula that takes everything into account, but so far, here is what I have come up with:

0-60 in 5 seconds is a constant acceleration of 5.36 m/s^2 as per this calculator.

Since Force = Mass x Acceleration, I can calculate the required force using the gross weight of the car.  That might be low, so I'm going to use about 3000lbs or 1360 kg as mass for purposes of sizing the motor. 

F=1360x5.36 = 7289.6 newtons. 

We'll just say 7300.  Of course, this doesn't take into account rolling resistance or drag, and I don't really have much of a clue how to do that at this point, so I'm going to ignore those for now and hope that someone can help me with that later.

I need to convert this forward force into torque, and this is where I should probably convert back to imperial measurements since so many motors are rated in foot/pounds.  The tires are almost exactly 24" in diameter, meaning a 1 foot radius, so that should make the calculations pretty easy.

1 newton = 0.224808943
7300 newtons = 1641 lbs of force.

Since we have a radius of 1 foot, that means I need 1641 ft/lbs of torque at the wheel to achieve sufficient acceleration to meet my goals.

Now I can calculate how much torque the motor needs.  It has a 6 speed gearbox with a differential ratio of 4.3:1 and the following ratios of each gear.

1st    3.166
2nd    1.904
3rd    1.392
4th    1.031
5th    0.815
6th    0.725

So, in first, I have a final drive ratio of 13.6138.  Dividing the required wheel torque of 1641 by 13.61, I need a motor that puts out about 120 ft/lbs of torque, not accounting for drag and friction.

In second, I would need about 200 ft/lbs of torque. 

Time for me to look up motors.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Enlil]
    #24529324 - 08/04/17 08:17 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

Have you thoroughly investigated others who have traveled down the road to financial ruin converting stock cars to electric?  Surely YouTube has such a person/people who spent their life savings in pursuit of 60 mph in 5 seconds?  Why not just buy a Tesla maybe a not too used one.  I just think batteries suck they eventually fail and then you have to buy new.  What's the attraction?  Plus they have been known to get hot enough to burn.



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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24529328 - 08/04/17 08:20 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

I have.  It seems to be a fairly popular thing for folks to do.  There are a few mr2 spyder converstions out there as well.

This isn't about tesla.  This is about doing something with my hands.  I'm not worried about financial ruin.  This is money spent on a hobby, not something I expect to be a long-run financial gain.



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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Enlil]
    #24529347 - 08/04/17 08:36 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
I have.  It seems to be a fairly popular thing for folks to do.  There are a few mr2 spyder converstions out there as well.

This isn't about tesla.  This is about doing something with my hands.  I'm not worried about financial ruin.  This is money spent on a hobby, not something I expect to be a long-run financial gain.






Financial gain?  No, I wasn't thinking in those terms.  Financial drain, not gain.  Of course we expect to spend money on hobbies, so hope it works out.  I know little of cars or electric cars other than they make little sense to me.  Hopefully this thread will teach me something.


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Invisiblememes
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24533660 - 08/05/17 09:06 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

ive been debating doing this via bicycle, Enlil (via endlesssphere forums).  even that task is seeming too hard for me (0 electrical engineering experience) so far. 

i'll be following this thread and wishing you luck :cheers:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: memes]
    #24546565 - 08/11/17 04:37 PM (6 years, 5 months ago)

Quote:

memes said:
ive been debating doing this via bicycle, Enlil (via endlesssphere forums).  even that task is seeming too hard for me (0 electrical engineering experience) so far. 

i'll be following this thread and wishing you luck :cheers:




I smell a burning battery.  Smells like H2S04.  I love that smell first thing in the morning.  Wakes you up it's pungent and bright it's a fucking acid.

Well Enlil is drawing up plans, him and his firm are on it.  Garonteed.


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OfflineBuster_Brown
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24580474 - 08/26/17 06:29 AM (6 years, 5 months ago)

"If your truck travels 10 miles on one gallon of gas at $4
for that exact same $4 you would get 40 miles worth of electricity"

https://forum.ih8mud.com/threads/electric-engine-swap-500-ft-lb-torque.230771/


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Invisiblepineninja
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Buster_Brown]
    #24584339 - 08/27/17 11:44 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

When weighing the initial gvm it will also be important to know how its balanced too maintain handling.

Potentially with the same weight put in different spots ie the middle you may improve it.


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OfflineWiiiiilson
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: pineninja]
    #24584680 - 08/28/17 06:38 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

A noble quest mate! +1 respect in my books.
I've been thinking of doing the same with a car which, like yours, doesnt look like a grandma's car - like 90% of the other conversions on the road right now (Fiats, beetles, polos, charades... barf)

If you're going to keep in the 6 speed transmission, there are a few things to consider.
1. It is a lot of extra, virtually unnecessary weight. By that I mean that a lot of conversions are direct drive, since torque is not a problem for electric motors and they are capable of very high revs - they just remove the tranny and connect straight to the drive shaft with a coupler. Where you win by keeping your transmission is top speed and efficiency (especially at higher revs, or under serious load like towing).
2. Your transmission is quite new - it will have an electronic transmission control unit. This gets feedback from the engine to decide when to shift. I don't know whether you can really disable this, or expect the same performance without a TCU. Unless it is manual - then go for gold (lighter, less complex and you can decide if you need the lower gears)!
3. Automatic transmissions require cooling.

You are around your limit for curb weight, but I think you could reduce that, as you said. As for space for the batteries, as pineninja said, you want to distribute them similarly to the original weight distribution (so mostly the engine bay), but in place of the fuel tank is also an attractive option - as it lowers the center of gravity and gets them out of your way. I don't have a lot of understanding of steering and suspension, but basically you don't want to make the car heavier than it's original suspension, brakes and steering was designed for or you will get a severe drop in handling, ride quality and safety. Same applies for the distribution of that weight.

Cost - this is my main issue. I'm still tempted though. Batteries will get cheaper, they have to. It's inevitable. This is where I'm thinking that range or using the best batteries aren't such an issue right now. If you get enough to cover your daily needs, you can replace/upgrade/add to them as they get cheaper. I think the prices are going to drop quite soon too, with the mega factories currently being built in the US and China.
There are also a number of exciting new battery technologies in the pipelines.

One more practical issue to bring up, which you've probably already considered, but it couldn't hurt to bring it up - if you want to have brakes, you will need vacuum to operate them. That means installing a vacuum pump. I've read about people having some troubles finding good vacuum pumps.

As for selecting your motor - I'd take a shortcut here. Just look at one of these other Spyder conversions and take note of what they've used and look at their stats. Are they getting 0-60 in 5 seconds or less? It will give you an idea of the kind of output you need. Look at the conversions (or teslas) that are already doing those numbers. What's the output on those motors?
I've been told that the controller unit is more important to the power output of an electric motor than the motor itself (as most motors are rated much lower than their actual safe output). So you could get a (purely an example) 250w electric bike motor and, with a bigger battery and battery controller, comfortably get 500-750w output from that motor.

ONE more thing. Your differential. If you are planning to use the full power of a setup cabale of getting you 0-60 in 5 seconds, you will need a differential that can handle it or you'll shear it right off, or at least fuck it up very quickly. Same for the brakes. They'll need an upgrade. Thicker discs, heavy duty calipers.

Keep us updated! This is exciting!


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Wiiiiilson]
    #24584694 - 08/28/17 06:50 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

1. The transmission is a transaxle, so it includes the differential.  I can't eliminate it without using another differential, or using a dual motor setup.  Either of those are far more complicated, expensive, and probably heavier than the 6 speed in it.  The transaxle weighs about 40 lbs.

2. It's manual. No electronic controls necessary

3. See #2.

With the transmission, I get gears which, as you pointed out, give me options.  I can lose the clutch, flywheel, etc. to reduce weight.

Weight is my largest issue, and I'm working that.  I ordered a vehicle scale that includes a pad under each wheel.  I'll be noting weight distribution stock so that I can mimic that as closely as possible.

Cost is not an issue for me.

Brakes will include a vacuum pump, but I'll also be using regenerative braking, which will help in the rear.

I believe I've chosen my motor:



It'll output 220 ft/lbs of torque, and is water cooled and fully sealed from the elements.


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OfflineWiiiiilson
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Enlil]
    #24584923 - 08/28/17 09:39 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Beautiful, love your work.

Have you considered lighter wheels and carbon fiber panels, since money is not an issue? It might only be a modest weight saving, but it's better than giving up the back seats and pulling up carpets and trim.

Again, I dont think that weight will be an problem in the long run. New electric cars will just have to find efficiency in other areas, if they want to stay competitive with the price and comfort of current ICE cars - so that will probably mean some weight reductions, but probably other ways (like regenerative braking and more energy dense batteries) to bridge the gap


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InvisibleEnlilMDiscord
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Wiiiiilson]
    #24584950 - 08/28/17 09:56 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

I don't have back seats.  We'll see how the weight plays out as I move forward.


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OfflineLogicaL ChaosM
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Enlil]
    #24589889 - 08/30/17 01:36 AM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Interesting.

Good luck man :popcorn:

And u being a lawyer, i know u got stacks upon stacks to make this reality :douchewink:


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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24766242 - 11/07/17 11:21 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Ive recently gained master tech qualification with citroen GB and PSA in general, some of the training was on electric vehicles. Now im qualified to work on these things but bugger me they are dangerous, i have to wear special thick rubber gloves with an expiration date on them that i then have to cover with sheild gloves so my sweat doesnt dip out of and holes i may puncture then get fried and to obviously prevent me puncturing them in the first place. Your best ditching the gearbox as said above manufacturers dont use them for a reason, having to operate the heavy internal of a gear box will be a big drain plus fabrication a flywheel clutch to mate to the motor. Just find a strong reduction gear and bang it on save the gear stick area as a new cubby hole for driving sweets. Get the motor mounted in the back a rwd electric would be cool. The cooling system is super important if i drain the coolant from the system i have to vac bleed it to ensure no air locks and then on start up if i dont get coolant from the battery return in 1 min the whole lot has to be drained and start again and trust 1 min is a long time when dealing with £1000s worth of batteries that could overheat at any time.
Im still not fully super savvy with electric vehicles as theres now a new masters in electric vehicles as all cars are going that way so peugeot/citroen are forcing all master techs to train for it....cant wait :/


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Edited by mrmazdarx9 (11/07/17 11:32 AM)


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OfflineWiiiiilson
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Re: My First Electric Vehicle Conversion [Re: mrmazdarx9]
    #24768281 - 11/08/17 05:44 AM (6 years, 2 months ago)

Wow, that's super interesting! This is definitely the first that I've heard from someone who's had proper training to work with electric vehicles.
I've been to a few car shows, watched a lot of Youtube etc and none of the DIY builders seem at all concerned about safety. Only one guy (who was an engineer and overall did a very beautiful, thorough job) seemed to even consider active cooling - which I thought seemed a little excessive. But you're right. It's high voltage and there's a massive overheating fire risk!

The conversion cars I've seen up close at the car shows, most actually still had their transmissions in - though most were also small manual gearboxes. Fabricating a flywheel/mount didn't seem to be much of an issue - though I'd heard some say it was the most difficult bit of it. That's probably just because they had to pay someone else to design and fabricate it haha.

Cooling though - these guys are often running 5+ year old battery packs with seemingly just air cooling, or a few heat dissipating fins. These cars have to deal with Australian 40C+ (104F+) days. That's also rough considering that none of the conversions I saw had A/C any more!


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