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Offlineakira_akuma
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The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy
    #24497325 - 07/20/17 08:58 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)


Edited by akira_akuma (08/11/17 04:11 PM)

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InvisibletHEfLY
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Re: The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24507642 - 07/25/17 04:46 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Postmodernism isn't a coherent philosophy in itself, but there are recurring themes in all of the groups you listed and I think what people are starting to take issue with is the prevailing trend of antiessentialism, which is frequently a component of postmodern thought since biological thinking was rejected on ideological grounds after WWII.

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24507901 - 07/25/17 06:38 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

post-modernism isn't a coherent philosophy in and of itself. right. so treating it as such isn't really helpful.

biological thought was "rejected"? give me a single source on the subject.
i don't believe you. i don't think it was ever rejected. in fact, i know it wasn't. LOL

but one shred of review material would be nice to bolster your claim, though.

PS: those above subjects are not "postmodernist" subjects, also. what ties do those subjects have to postmodernism? don't say "postmodernism rejects biology as a fact".

that'd be stupendous, though.

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InvisibletHEfLY
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Re: The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24508061 - 07/25/17 07:34 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

biological thought was "rejected"? give me a single source on the subject.




I meant in a cultural sense, biological explanations for human differences are unfashionable, because of the association with Nazi Germany. I don't think I need a source for that.

Quote:

what ties do those subjects have to postmodernism? don't say "postmodernism rejects biology as a fact".




Well there's Judith Butler, who is very influential, and her ideas are directly related to people like Jacques Derrida. And yeah, she does seem to imply that biological sex is socially constructed, or so I think, because I can never quite figure out what the hell these people are talking about.

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24508217 - 07/25/17 08:43 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I meant in a cultural sense, biological explanations for human differences are unfashionable, because of the association with Nazi Germany. I don't think I need a source for that.




oh you don't need a source for your bullshit? makes sense.

so what are you saying? that "postmodernists" reject that there are biological differences in humans?

and you don't need to show sources for that? unsurprising.

Quote:

Well there's Judith Butler, who is very influential, and her ideas are directly related to people like Jacques Derrida. And yeah, she does seem to imply that biological sex is socially constructed, or so I think, because I can never quite figure out what the hell these people are talking about.



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_feminism#Butler

awesome. you don't even realize SHE REJECTS POSTMODERNISM

i rest my fucking case.

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InvisibletHEfLY
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Re: The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy [Re: akira_akuma] * 1
    #24508387 - 07/25/17 10:08 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

so what are you saying? that "postmodernists" reject that there are biological differences in humans?




My initial point was that antiessentialism is a common characteristic of what we call postmodern philosophy and the only politically correct way to explain racial or gender differences these days is through external circumstances rather than anything innate. I also think it's obvious that WWII had a massive impact on the development of this morality. Try to argue against it and see how long it takes before somebody calls you a Nazi.

Quote:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Postmodern_feminism#Butler

awesome. you don't even realize SHE REJECTS POSTMODERNISM




From the wiki link:

"Postmodern feminism's major departure from other branches of feminism is perhaps the argument that sex, or at least gender is itself constructed through language, a view notably propounded in Judith Butler's 1990 book, Gender Trouble."

She personally rejects the term because its too vague. That doesn't change the fact that postmodern feminism is defined by her ideas.

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24508453 - 07/25/17 11:03 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

My initial point was that antiessentialism is a common characteristic of what we call postmodern philosophy and the only politically correct way to explain racial or gender differences these days is through external circumstances rather than anything innate.




antiessentialism is intersectionality.
Quote:


I also think it's obvious that WWII had a massive impact on the development of this morality. Try to argue against it and see how long it takes before somebody calls you a Nazi.



intersectionality^

Quote:

In social thought, metaphysical essentialism is often conflated with biological reductionism. Most sociologists, for example, employ a distinction between biological sex and gender role. Similar distinctions across disciplines generally fall under the division of "nature versus nurture".



https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Essentialism#Society_and_politics

you, like so many people conflate the concept. postmodernism isn't about gender studies, or at least it shouldn't be. gender studies feminism are not "post-modern", not even in any sense of the word. SJWs, on the other hand, maybe- but no "postmodernist", or "post modern philosopher" ever has talked about gender studies...maybe some "post modernist/sci-fi feminist writers" write about their field of study, and in a sense that is post modern literature, by definition, but what non-feminist (again, feminism being a concept from the late 1800's on down- so is that postmodern? quick answer: no, it isn't)- what non-feminist / non-political voice, even, with a degree to teach philosophy, even talks about gender studies at length?

name me one.
Quote:

"Postmodern feminism's major departure from other branches of feminism is perhaps the argument that sex, or at least gender is itself constructed through language, a view notably propounded in Judith Butler's 1990 book, Gender Trouble."




yes, and that's the main argument of any postmodernist, and they are right. everything we do is structured through language, signs, and symbols, and you know it, and i know it. when i'm talking to you, you can see and hear me (if i was in person, you would know this even better, and less erm telepathically, let's just say)...that's laws, that's finance, and mathematics (symbolic logic), that's geometry (there is a descriptive language for everything), hence there is a way to, yes, if committed to text, recorded somehow, can be "deconstructed" (see video below), but as i state in the video below, you cannot deconstruct the biological nature of sex and gender, but can redefine characteristics through some logical facet (if at the very least, one is "sick" and needs medical care- that argument is the most reductionist and deflated, but nevertheless can be asserted), through some language, which is, at least grammatically or mathematically, understood.

and why would it be any other way?

how could it? explain.


Edited by akira_akuma (07/25/17 11:16 PM)

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InvisibletHEfLY
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Re: The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy [Re: akira_akuma]
    #24517492 - 07/30/17 05:25 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Yes I get that they're not the same thing, all I'm saying is they're related. It's easy to trace the influence of deconstruction on contemporary gender theories, even if you think those ideas have been misappropriated or misunderstood.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender_studies#Influences

Quote:

The emergence of post-modernism theories affected gender studies,[18] causing a movement in identity theories away from the concept of fixed or essentialist gender identity, to post-modern[41] fluid[42] or multiple identities.[43] The impact of post-structuralism, and its literary theory aspect post-modernism, on gender studies was most prominent in its challenging of grand narratives. Post-structuralism paved the way for the emergence of queer theory in gender studies, which necessitated the field expanding its purview to sexuality.[44]




I'm not even completely opposed to all aspects of post-modernism btw. I don't disagree with the video you posted, and honestly it's hard to tell which part of what I said you are disagreeing with. The second paragraph you wrote seems to totally contradict the first one, ie "gender studies and feminism are not postmodern in any sense of the word" vs "it's the same basic argument" ?

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Offlineakira_akuma
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Re: The Politics Of Post/Meta-modernism & Philosophy [Re: tHEfLY]
    #24517625 - 07/30/17 08:07 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

....

Edited by akira_akuma (08/11/17 04:11 PM)

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