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InvisibleZanthius
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Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate * 2
    #24509699 - 07/26/17 03:09 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Although I am not necessarily an atheist myself, I dislike how religious people often think that atheists are immoral in several ways. So I created these graphs to show that religious countries actually are more polluted, more corrupted, and have a higher homicide rate.







http://archania.org/religion_compared_to_pollution_corruption_and_homicide.html

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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Zanthius] * 1
    #24509703 - 07/26/17 03:13 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Makes perfect sense.

Religion divides people, it stresses people immensely, it implants extreme fear at a very young age, it creates a false sense of superiority and it gives people a reason to hurt each other. People feel justified hurting other people if they do it for their religion.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Tmethyl]
    #24509714 - 07/26/17 03:18 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Tmethyl said:
Makes perfect sense.

Religion divides people, it stresses people immensely, it implants extreme fear at a very young age, it creates a false sense of superiority and it gives people a reason to hurt each other. People feel justified hurting other people if they do it for their religion.






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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Zanthius] * 1
    #24514317 - 07/28/17 04:16 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Zanthius said:
Although I am not necessarily an atheist myself, I dislike how religious people often think that atheists are immoral in several ways. So I created these graphs to show that religious countries actually are more polluted, more corrupted, and have a higher homicide rate.







http://archania.org/religion_compared_to_pollution_corruption_and_homicide.html




Correlation does not equal causation. If a study found that countries who eat a lot of potatoes are more likely to have corrupt governments, it would not follow that eating potatoes makes you corrupt. Secondly, why did you choose those three metrics? For all we know, you picked homicide rate, how "corrupted" a country is and pollution because they supported your conclusion.

Relationships like this are far too complex to measure with such simple statistics. There are too many factors and variables to account for.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Peyote Road] * 1
    #24515449 - 07/29/17 04:24 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Correlation does not equal causation.




What you are saying is of course true, but it makes it much more likely that it could be a cause. If the correlations showed the opposite;
that atheistic countries were more corrupted, more polluted and had a higher homicide rate, would you still dismiss it?



Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Relationships like this are far too complex to measure with such simple statistics. There are too many factors and variables to account for.




Well, well. There sure are, but to completely dismiss it, seems like  typical confirmation bias. We ignore evidence we don't like.

Edited by Zanthius (07/29/17 04:34 AM)

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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Zanthius]
    #24517020 - 07/29/17 08:55 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

What you are saying is of course true, but it makes it much more likely that it could be a cause. If the correlations showed the opposite;
that atheistic countries were more corrupted, more polluted and had a higher homicide rate, would you still dismiss it?




I would see the same problems with it. I've never believed that atheists were necessarily immoral, nor is that even a Biblical teaching as far as I'm concerned. While obviously some religious people might assume that, I can't think of a Bible verse that teaches that unbelievers are necessarily immoral people, or that simply believing in God automatically makes you moral.

But just to illustrate the complexity of the question, not only is it difficult to measure morality statistically but if we want to explore the question of whether religion teaches people moral behavior we also need to take into account that the samples aren't random. For example, it could be that people with naturally strong morals senses are more likely to reject religion, either because of corruptions of organized religion or religious scriptures they find morally reprehensible. And perhaps religion attracts some people with naturally low morals, who after getting in trouble, are drawn by the religious ideas of mercy and forgiveness. For example, you will find a lot of people reading the Bible in jail or prison. Or take the case of someone like Jeffery Dahmer. After committing such heinous crimes, most people would probably not want anything to do with him. But there was a baptist preacher who spent time with Jeffrey Dahmer in prison, and taught him that he could be forgiven for what he did.

And then again there is the problem of what a complex phenomenon religion is. What if it's the case that some preachers are doing a good job shaping their flock and others are doing a bad job and leading people astray? For instance, what if statistics found that long term attendees at a certain church tended to have very high morals and high levels of success and happiness in their lives? It could be that church was indeed doing something right, but not necessarily all churches. I am not the type that would argue that "religion" in general is necessarily a guaranteed solution to anything. If you actually study religion, you will see that it is only effective under certain (often very specific) conditions. Consider Jesus's parable of the sower:

(Mark 4:1-9; Luke 8:4-15)

1That same day Jesus went out of the house and sat by the sea. 2Such large crowds gathered around Him that He got into a boat and sat down, while all the people stood on the shore.

3And He told them many things in parables, saying, “A farmer went out to sow his seed. 4As he was sowing, some seeds fell along the path, and the birds came and devoured them.

5Some fell on rocky ground, where they did not have much soil. They sprang up quickly, because the soil was shallow. 6But when the sun rose, the seedlings were scorched, and they withered because they had no root.

7Other seeds fell among the thorns, which grew up and choked the seedlings.

8Still other seeds fell on good soil and produced a crop—a hundredfold, sixtyfold, or thirtyfold.

9He who has ears,a let him hear.”

So Jesus says some people hear the word of God but it does not take root in them. As a side note, I'd say that's one of the central issues with people saying religion does not work and providing evidence and statistics to prove it. It's like if I created a special fertilizer and said this fertilizer can double the size of your fruits, if you add it in the right amount, at the right time and your plants get this much sun, and that much rain. Then a bunch of amateur gardeners buy the fertilizer, don't follow all the directions and at the end of the season measure their fruits and claim it doesn't work. One could say that's what's been going on with religion for quite some time.

All these factors make questions like this very difficult to answer with statistics, especially very basic statistics. My personal view is that religion can teach people moral behavior and a lack of religion can lead people toward immoral behavior. But you can't assume there is a direct relationship such that an increase in religion will lead to an increase in morality. I also think there are other ways people can learn morality, such as philosophy or even a careful study of literature and history or the most important way, to have moral behavior modeled by the people they grow up around.  A religious person raised around people with loose morals is probably less likely to behave morally than an atheist raised among people with strong morals.

I do agree with the idea that the conscious needs to be formed. For instance I dislike it when people say "I don't need a book to be moral". while I agree everyone has the capacity to act morally, religious or otherwise, educated or otherwise, book or no book, I also think it's a bit arrogant to think your conscious and decision making can't be improved upon through the studying ethics.

Quote:


Well, well. There sure are, but to completely dismiss it, seems like  typical confirmation bias. We ignore evidence we don't like.




Absolutely. But I think the reasons I posted above will explain why I dismiss it. Not to mention, as I already pointed out, it seems like confirmaton bias on your part to only include statistics that show a negative relationship between religion and morality. For all we know, you could have cherry picked those particular statistics to support your conclusion.

Edited by Peyote Road (07/30/17 12:58 AM)

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24517189 - 07/29/17 10:59 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

So Jesus says some people hear the word of Jesus but it does take root in them




Am I misinterpreting?

Religion works as an emotional comfort blanket but a great deal of its historical and geographical content is not inline with empirical knowledge, and philosophically, as I see it, there's no need for it, well at least no need for it to be immaterial. 

This is why I don't take any of them seriously.

This stuff though :thumbup:

Quote:

It's like if I created a special fertilizer and said this fertilizer can double the size of your fruits, if you add it in the right amount, at the right time and your plants get this much sun, and that much rain. Then a bunch of amateur gardeners buy the fertilizer, don't follow all the directions and at the end of the season measure their fruits and claim it doesn't work. One could say that's what's been going on with religion for quite some time(and that the fertiliser is snake oil).

I also think there are other ways people can learn morality, such as philosophy or even a careful study of literature and history or the most important way, to have moral behavior modeled by the people they grow up around.




A great deal of the ethics displayed in the bible are reprehensible though it provides an interesting look at early literature.


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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: sudly]
    #24517324 - 07/30/17 01:30 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Am I misinterpreting?




I meant to say, does not take root.

Quote:

Religion works as an emotional comfort blanket but a great deal of its historical and geographical content is not inline with empirical knowledge, and philosophically, as I see it, there's no need for it, well at least no need for it to be immaterial.




The point of books like the Bible is not to teach people history or geography. It's better understood as mythology, entertaining stories that contain deep lessons about life and human nature. What makes the Bible so wonderful, is the layered meanings. Often times if you study a scriptural passage you'll find every word has an allegorical meaning.

And I would argue there is a need for religion. Although the benefits of religion can be reached through philosophy, art and literature historically religion provided people with a community and shared purpose/value system which formed the backbone of society and culture. Aside from that I'd argue that whatever philosophy you choose to live by, essentially becomes your religion. If a group of people got together every week to teach and discuss philosophy, that would be a form of religion. Religion comes in higher forms, and lower forms. Most people who dislike religion tend to  focus on the negatives of the lower/lowest forms of religion.

To quote a poster in the S&P forum "
'Religion'; the congregation of those infected with the same strain (or similar) of 'beliefs'."

If we take this point of view, you can see how religion and culture go hand in hand. Pople who don' go to church or read ancient scriptures still pick up some sort of belief system. Look at the behavior of atheists for example. There are missionaries  who try to win converts (we've had a few of those here on the shroomery), prophets, like Richard Dawkins and holy books like Darwin's Origin of Species. I'd argue that religious expression is a near universal aspect of human behavior and takes many forms.

Quote:

(and that the fertiliser is snake oil).
Quote:



It's not snake oil though. The Bible for example, does lay down many sound principles to live by. Can I ask I you how much time you have spent studying religious scriptures?


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

Edited by Peyote Road (07/30/17 01:57 AM)

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24517433 - 07/30/17 03:56 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

It's easy enough to cherry pick a meaning from the bible, but the thing is that it has all kinds of meanings and no real coherency.

If it was worth studying I would have but with the blink of an eye it's easy enough to cast out the bible back to hell where it belongs.

Maybe there's a need for philosophy but religion in my view still plays no necessary part in it. Tradition doesn't mean shit in modern times and many of the forefathers of America were deists that had no specific religious affiliation.

Not every philosophy is a religion, or at least not every philosophy gives the kudos to an entity of non-existence. A group of people talking about philosophy is not a religion and I don't need to clarify this for you, but still, not everyone who talks about philosophy has the same beliefs.

And saying people with similar ideas or beliefs are a part of a religion is quite the generalisation. Especially if you want to place this kind of description on a congregation of researchers.

Religion is like a stepping stone made out of shit that you sink into without responsibility because the idea behind it all is that the mind is not a part of the self, and that it is an immaterial entity of sorts, not existing or being a part of the real, physical world.

If someone says the world is flat or 6000 years old they will be slapped with coherent reasoning.

The bible lays down a bunch of fine principles to cherry pick from, from marrying your rapist to cutting the hands of of thieves and murdering anyone who wears a fabric of two kinds, shaves their beard or eats a shellfish.

'Prophets' like Richard Dawkins come about to try and stop the nonsense being spewed out about things like creationism from Ken Ham and his Noah experience to people trying to remove science from the science classroom and replace it with bible studies.

What principle is there in killing 42 children over a childish insult?
Quote:

4. Elisha and the Two Bears (2 Kings 2:23-25)

Introduction
23 Then he went up from there to Bethel; and as he was going up by the way, young lads came out from the city and mocked him and said to him, “Go up, you baldhead; go up, you baldhead!” 24 When he looked behind him and saw them, he cursed them in the name of the LORD. Then two female bears came out of the woods and tore up forty-two lads of their number




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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: sudly]
    #24517454 - 07/30/17 04:31 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Your personal biases are causing you to miss a broader picture.


--------------------
The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24517512 - 07/30/17 05:59 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

My personal biases? Because I don't agree with religion?
And this broader picture, it's not in any holy text, it's in the natural world which does not agree with holy texts like the bible because noahs flood didn't happen, and although some people find emotional comfort in religion the foundational essence of it riddled with inconsistencies which are otherwise known as lies.

Sure, we can take a spirited meaning from some of the texts but like the one I referenced with she bears and a bunch on children being mauled, it's all open to interpretation and not based on that which is real.

It's mythology, folklore, mysticism and fantasy.

I think there are greater men than those who believe in a heaven and hell outside of the earth or cosmos, and that a god would be so malevolent to create this disparity after death. 


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Edited by sudly (07/30/17 07:19 AM)

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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Peyote Road]
    #24517514 - 07/30/17 05:59 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Peyote Road said:
Correlation does not equal causation. If a study found that countries who eat a lot of potatoes are more likely to have corrupt governments, it would not follow that eating potatoes makes you corrupt. Secondly, why did you choose those three metrics? For all we know, you picked homicide rate, how "corrupted" a country is and pollution because they supported your conclusion.

Relationships like this are far too complex to measure with such simple statistics. There are too many factors and variables to account for.



:congrats:

summed it up very nicely


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Invisiblequinn
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: quinn]
    #24517528 - 07/30/17 06:21 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

i would add to the OP:

'religious' is too often a synonym for poor developing countries (who depend on religion for social cohesion and hope in harsh living conditions) and conversely 'secular' for powerful wealthy developed countries.

wealth imo would be a much more apt criteria in describing the disparity in the op.. and i would be interested to see the comparison between poor religious countries and poor secular countries on the same chart.

i think the idea that athiests are less moral is wrong but imo you have gone about it the wrong way trying to show 'no the other is actually less moral'.. rather its the proposition itself that is flawed and should be rejected imo


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InvisibleZanthius
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: quinn]
    #24517682 - 07/30/17 08:50 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

quinn said:
'religious' is too often a synonym for poor developing countries (who depend on religion for social cohesion and hope in harsh living conditions) and conversely 'secular' for powerful wealthy developed countries.

wealth imo would be a much more apt criteria in describing the disparity in the op.. and i would be interested to see the comparison between poor religious countries and poor secular countries on the same chart.




Poor as in a low GDP per capita? I think I would need to include income inequality in order to determine which countries are "poor". It doesn't really matter if a country has a high GDP per capita, if only a few individuals in that country owns most of that wealth. USA might according to such a criteria of poverty be considered poor, since it has such a high income inequality.

I actually think it would be more interesting to compare high GDP per capita countries, without taking into consideration income inequality. Then I believe we would see religious high GDP countries as much more corrupt than atheistic high GDP countries.

Anyhow. Someone who is more interested in this topic than me should make these graphs. I am sure you could make enough graphs to write an entire book about this.

Edited by Zanthius (07/30/17 09:51 AM)

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InvisibleDieCommie

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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Zanthius] * 1
    #24519061 - 07/30/17 07:41 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

This certainly jives with my world view.  Take the US as a microcosm and you find the same trend.  The more religious states have more crime and poverty.

It begs the question of which came first, the faith or the poverty.  Each one feeds the other.

Its also a good reminder of why "live and let live" doesn't really work with the faithful.  They embrace belief without and in spite of evidence as good and that inevitably seeps into policy with disastrous effects.  The less faith a society has the better it will be, for everyone.

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OfflineTmethylM
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: DieCommie] * 1
    #24519327 - 07/30/17 10:09 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

DieCommie said:
Its also a good reminder of why "live and let live" doesn't really work with the faithful.  They embrace belief without and in spite of evidence as good and that inevitably seeps into policy with disastrous effects.  The less faith a society has the better it will be, for everyone.




Well said, this my observation as well.

If I am to be completely honest I've never met a kind or loving or forgiving Christian. The religion itself creates people opposite in character to the Jesus they worship.
That is quite funny if you give it a moment to sink in. :lol: It's easy to see how a religion that forces fear, dogma, threats of punishment and judgment onto young children can have profound and lasting effects on the society they inhabit.

Give that system a hundred or more years to infect the minds of it's followers and you have a permanent systemic disease transforming vibrant minds into sterile muck as you see today. The muck-minds will pretend to love their muck but they are suffering inside, the muck-minds will fight and die for their muck, but only to appear muckier than the others. The muck-minds will never question their muck for fear of punishment and fear of judgment. They are told the Devil is 'out there' but their Devil is 'in there' as the very muck they worship. What could be more evil than Christianity? A form of permanent enslavement with no payment or reward inflicting suffering across the globe for thousands of years.

Does anyone else get the feeling when they are in the presence of a "Christian" that they are dead inside and trapped?
I recognized this feeling the first time I was forced to attend a church at 10 years old, everyone there felt lifeless, there words had no meaning, their sincerity was clouded and artificial, their prayers were hollow and habitual, their actions were forced and expected. What made you a good Christian was good acting.

Life is spontaneous and alive, always growing, always moving forward, always flexible. Religion is much like a manifestation of death, it's rigid, cold, & stagnant.

I have no intention to offend anyone with these words, I just allowed my fingers to type my observations. I'm not Atheist either I have no hatred towards any religion, I think it's equally silly to assume there is no God as it is to assume there is. Humans have a fear of not knowing but religion does not remove that 'not knowing' it only puts a blindfold on the 'not knowing' to cover up the fear with belief. You still do not know if God exists or doesn't exist no matter how much you pretend your beliefs or disbeliefs are facts, I'd think any reasonable person would agree with that.


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OfflineDeesKnots
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Tmethyl]
    #24519492 - 07/30/17 11:48 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

:handth: well said


--------------------
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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Tmethyl]
    #24519508 - 07/31/17 12:10 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Why would God exist? I don't know why he would so I don't pretend he does. I think it's rather evident we can act as our own gods merely cursed to immortality, though the foundations we lay down can outlast us for millennia.


jks I'm corrupted and overflowing with sin because I eat sugary things for breakfast.

I don't think I have a fear of not knowing so much as I have a motivation to learn.

I mean if there were statistically significant correlations between OP's graphs then I think that'd help to address this issue but I'm not sure where they'll come from for this one unless there are other studies that have made similar comparisons.

And after a quick search.. I think this is of relevance.
Quote:

The impact of religious faith on attitudes to environmental issues and Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) technologies: A mixed methods study

Abstract
The study explored how religion might shape perspectives on themes within the New Ecological Paradigm (NEP) scale, including the relationship between humans and the environment (Dunlap, Kent, Mertig, & Jones, 2000). This study also explored how religious beliefs and values might influence perspectives on: (a) climate change; and (b) the acceptability of Carbon Capture and Storage (CCS) technologies.

Muslim and Christian participants' opinions about climate change and CCS technologies were shaped by the importance of environmental stewardship and intergenerational justice. Both groups had relatively low perceptions of urgency for environmental issues, particularly climate change, due to beliefs in an afterlife and divine intervention.

Lack of belief in an afterlife or divine intervention led secular participants to focus on human responsibility and the need for action, bolstering the perceived necessity of a range of technologies including CCS.

Conclusion
In summary, while all the groups were pro-environmental their reasons for environmental concern varied. Religious beliefs shaped concepts about the relationship between humans and the environment, with Muslim and Christian participants referring to divine creation and the God given responsibility of stewardship, while secular participants spoke about evolution and human responsibility to self-regulate and co-exist with other species.

When considering the future role of CCS in the UK, Muslim participants referred to religious texts to argue that continued burning of fossil fuels and the geological storage of waste CO2 would be immoral because they could disrupt the balance of nature, leave a dubious inheritance for future generations, and would constitute poor stewardship of Allah's creation, for which they would be judged. Christian participants also referred to scripture but focused on human welfare and the commandment to love others to guide their discussion on the relationship between humans and the environment.

Modification of the environment was deemed acceptable where human welfare was promoted, meaning that while there were concerns about the cost and safety of CCS, no serious ethical objections were raised. The secular participants argued that the risks of climate change exceeded those of CO2 storage, calling for a range of measures including CCS to be used to address CO2 emissions.

http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0160791X14000177




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Edited by sudly (07/31/17 12:27 AM)

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OfflinePeyote Road
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: sudly]
    #24519511 - 07/31/17 12:16 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

sudly said:
My personal biases? Because I don't agree with religion?
And this broader picture, it's not in any holy text, it's in the natural world which does not agree with holy texts like the bible because noahs flood didn't happen, and although some people find emotional comfort in religion the foundational essence of it riddled with inconsistencies which are otherwise known as lies.

Sure, we can take a spirited meaning from some of the texts but like the one I referenced with she bears and a bunch on children being mauled, it's all open to interpretation and not based on that which is real.

It's mythology, folklore, mysticism and fantasy.

I think there are greater men than those who believe in a heaven and hell outside of the earth or cosmos, and that a god would be so malevolent to create this disparity after death. 




I agree its mythology, folklore, mysticism and fantasy but I happen to think there are parts of the human psyche that are nourished by those things.


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The path of the herbalist is to open ourselves to nature in an innocent and pure way. SHe in turn will open her bounty and reward us with many valuable secrets. May the earth bless you. - Michael Tierra

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Invisiblelaughingdog
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Re: Religious countries are more polluted, more corrupted and have a higher homicide rate [Re: Peyote Road] * 1
    #24519558 - 07/31/17 01:21 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Nothing exists.(ha) No-thing exists. Matter and energy are equivalent. What matter/ energy 'is' can't even be defined, other than to say something about constant transformation. Given that there are no  objects existing, or separate objects, ... how much sense can it make to say 'god' 'exists'?
    It is a form of hypnosis to mistake mental concepts for 'reality', but that is what most thought is, (purely a very approximate (at best) description) , but most people mistake much of their thought for reality. ( It is only since Einstein that we know Matter and energy are equivalent, and how wrong all our perceptions are). And what is being described, by thought, is a 'reality' based on crude sense perceptions, modeled in an animal brain, whose purpose is only to insure survival of a primate, in certain niches at certain times. It is like the metaphor of the blind men and the elephant. The metaphor gives a good image, but perhaps fails to emphasize how obsessive and relentless their pointless arguing is. Or in more modern terms: "the interface theory of consciousness and perception", explained in the beginning of the video below. (Later, it seems, he goes into some questionable complications.)
    In any case believing "God" "exists" is simply a case of compounding error by creating another level of trance within trance.
    And the idea that the deeper the trance(s) the less effective a society would be seems to make perfect sense.

the interface theory consciousness and perception

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