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InvisibleAsante
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Re: Bitcoin Breaks $3000 a coin! Predictions? Lets make Shroomery rich! [Re: viktor]
    #24496134 - 07/20/17 11:24 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

viktor said:
This bitcoin shit just sounds like magic beans to me.





Paper money too. Print 100 on a piece of paper with some fancy stuff that proves you really printed a 100 on a piece of paper and voila, most people will work many hours to earn it.


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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Bitcoin Breaks $3000 a coin! Predictions? Lets make Shroomery rich! [Re: Asante]
    #24496302 - 07/20/17 12:57 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

The thing about that 100 is not so much the fact that it is just a piece of paper, but more like a credit in that people trust in the ability to trade the paper they have received for their work for something they desire that someone else put the work in to manifest.

  This is why I'm not at all worried that the US fiat currencies will collapse in my lifetime. The amount of faith placed in that paper by millions of people worldwide is what gives it it's value. Once most people get an idea in there head that something is true it is very hard to convince them that it is not, even if all sound logic and physical evidence suggest the contrary.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bitcoin Breaks $3000 a coin! Predictions? Lets make Shroomery rich! [Re: george castanza]
    #24496360 - 07/20/17 01:33 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

george castanza said:
The thing about that 100 is not so much the fact that it is just a piece of paper, but more like a credit in that people trust in the ability to trade the paper they have received for their work for something they desire that someone else put the work in to manifest.

  This is why I'm not at all worried that the US fiat currencies will collapse in my lifetime. The amount of faith placed in that paper by millions of people worldwide is what gives it it's value. Once most people get an idea in there head that something is true it is very hard to convince them that it is not, even if all sound logic and physical evidence suggest the contrary.




Thats true but how has the value held up over the last 100 years? Its lost some 98% of its value hasn't it? Its worth what people will exchange for it, same as with bitcoin. Bitcoin since its inception has gained hugely in value. Its worth over $2500 a coin right now.

With all the qe and massive debt on not just federal level of some 20T but state and municipal and pensions, etc there is no way to pay it back except for even more qe. We are trying to print our way out of debt and that will come to a bad end. Zimbabwe or venezuela here we come. Coin on the other hand is limited in supply, no one can create millions more by pushing a button.

That is one reason I can't see real estate or much of anything else which is a commodity dropping in value. There are too many dollars chasing too few goods and every country is playing the same tricks. Europe is on the verge of a breakup and many countries are about to collapse financially.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

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Invisiblegeorge castanzaM
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Re: Bitcoin Breaks $3000 a coin! Predictions? Lets make Shroomery rich! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #24496547 - 07/20/17 03:08 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

That is all very true, but when all the smaller fiats crash where are they going to go? Btc and the like can hardly be traded hand to hand in a backroom or street corner. When all others crash people will largly run to the US dollar (likely because of the  US Navy). I'm not claiming that the fiat dollar will never become obsolete, I'm just very doubtful that it will happen in my lifetime.

Basically the shell game will continue as long as the powers that be dictate that it does.


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bitcoin Breaks $3000 a coin! Predictions? Lets make Shroomery rich! [Re: george castanza]
    #24497071 - 07/20/17 07:08 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Actually that is the main thing keeping the dollar afloat. Other currencies are crashing too, the dollar has a near mythical status so even though the balance sheet looks bad they figure it better than pesos, dinars, etc. The dollar will never die, it will just fade away quite a bit. Losing over 98% and more each year is not a winning track record. Its the way big govt steals from the poor like a reverse robin hood. The rich know where to invest and beat inflation.

Bitcoin can indeed be traded on street corners and back rooms. Phone to phone and its done in a jiffy. It can also be sent anywhere in the world which is not always possible with fiat and when it is possible, it usually costs a lot and or takes a long time. There is also the problem of reversing a payment, paypig can be reversed and many other forms of payment, checks can bounce, mg/wu cost a good bit, are inconvenient and may deny the transaction or bar you from using it forever. They also prohibit using mg/wu for buying things.

Financial systems all over the world are in deep doo doo. USA is insolvent on the books, the can keeps getting kicked farther and farther. But, while you can fool some of the people all the time, many are wising up and investing in commodities like gold, r/e, and bitcoins. BTW, coin just passed 2800 again. Rumors of its crash or demise were greatly exaggerated.


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“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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OfflineKryptos
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Re: Bitcoin Breaks $3000 a coin! Predictions? Lets make Shroomery rich! [Re: Stonehenge]
    #24497637 - 07/20/17 11:34 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Debt on a personal level and Debt on a national level work very differently. Let me give you an example: The US foreign debt is $6.06T, of which China owns $1.06T. However, at the same exact time, China has approximately $1.68T in foreign owned debt, of which 80%, or about $1.34T, is owned by the US.

Fun right?? We owe them money, but they also owe us money!

Since this is a little bit more complicated than you loaning your buddy 5$, we can't just call it even.

For added fun, Notice that of 19T, only 6T is owned by foreign interests. We owe *ourselves* 13T. You ever owe yourself money before? "Hey, me, I need to borrow five bucks, can I pay me back tomorrow?"

I don't get why everyone freaks out about national debt. Sure, being in debt is bad, because the bank can send an angry lawyer after you. You think some random ass bank in China is gonna send a lawyer after the US? Nope. Just like Wells Fargo (or whoever) won't send a lawyer after China. The debt just makes the world go round more smoothly, much like a mortgage allows you to effectively buy a house over time. You *can* eventually afford it, it's just that you don't wanna be homeless for the 30 years you spend saving up. Same thing, but with like, trade deals and shit internationally.

I guess in theory, if China was to somehow consolidate all the debt it owns, and then call in all the US debts, then the US would be a little bit fucked, to the tune of $1.06T. Considering our GDP of ~19T, that means that the US, with some coordination, would just lose income for a few weeks. Oh well. Heck, if the Government had to handle the debt alone, it would pay it off within a quarter, considering the yearly income of the government is in the $4T range. Yes, this would be disastrous economically, but then we could do the same thing to China, who's GDP of ~12T means that repayment of their debt would hurt their economy much more, shutting it down for at least a month, or...I don't know the government revenue even in ballpark, so...I don't know, but it would hurt China worse.

Again, keep in mind that this financial war scenario would require extreme coordination and consolidation of debt ownership, which is practically impossible. Look at congress for an example why.


Edited by Kryptos (07/20/17 11:57 PM)


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Invisibleamp244
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Re: Bitcoin Breaks $3000 a coin! Predictions? Lets make Shroomery rich! [Re: Kryptos]
    #24499436 - 07/21/17 06:43 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Some serious shit about to go down with bitcoin. An intentional fork is looming.

https://blog.bitmain.com/en/uahf-contingency-plan-uasf-bip148/
This shit is pretty esoteric so if you don't understand it fully, you aren't alone.

If you have coin in a bank/exchange like coinbase you might want to get it out. Read this guide to learn all about the situation. It is very informative.
https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=2012799.0

Although after reading through the article they have been addressing the issue and perhaps this news caused an overreaction.


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Edited by amp244 (07/21/17 07:53 PM)


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InvisibleStonehenge
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Re: Bitcoin Breaks $3000 a coin! Predictions? Lets make Shroomery rich! [Re: Kryptos]
    #24499536 - 07/21/17 07:41 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Of course debt is important and no it does not all come out even. The large part of the nat debt we owe to "ourselves" means owed to usa residents and citizens. I think that counts a lot, people have their retirement and life savings in those treasuries. Its so large that now we have trouble paying interest and having enough left over to fund important programs. And lots to waste on stupid wars of course.

What happens when interest rates really go up like they have been in the past? Rates have been kept artificially low and the fed is not going to jack them way up. They will likely roll back the little bit they did raise not too long ago. If rates go up to 6% which is not high historically, then we will be paying interest and not much else. Everything will have to be slashed to the bone or eliminated except of course for the military.

By aug 1 they will come to some sort of conclusion on what to do. Bip91 looks like its in and also segwit so a hard problem fork is very unlikely but you never know. A soft fork agreed upon is more likely along with at least doubling the block size.


--------------------
“A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the voters discover that they can vote themselves largesse from the public treasury. From that moment on, the majority always votes for the candidates promising the most benefits from the public treasury with the result that a democracy always collapses over loose fiscal policy, always followed by a dictatorship.” (attributed to Alexis de Tocqueville political philosopher Circa 1835)

Trade list http://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/18047755


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