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Invisiblemillzy
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stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" * 1
    #24469997 - 07/09/17 02:20 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Since the late 1970's, the National Rifle Association and other firearm advocates have successfully fought to make armed self defense increasingly acceptable in everyday life. A wealth of survey data—the most recent of which came via a major Pew poll released last month—shows that Americans have grown more comfortable with the toting of concealed guns in public. Self defense is now the most common reason cited for owning a firearm, leading handguns to become the most popular kind of weapon in the American arsenal. Those attitudes and behaviors mark major shifts: In the mid 1990s, Americans primarily owned guns for recreation, and as recently as 2005, a strong plurality thought only police officers should carry guns in public.

At the heart of this campaign for the hearts, minds, and holsters of America has been an article of faith that the NRA and its allies have preached since at least the 1990s: that people enhance public safety by carrying guns to defend themselves. Economist John Lott first developed this "More Guns, Less Crime" theory in his 1998 book of the same title, and has since popularized it via frequent legislative testimony and op-eds. The NRA has deployed Lott's work to beat back calls for new curbs on guns and their use. In the aftermath of the Sandy Hook Elementary School shooting, when NRA leader Wayne LaPierre made his infamous assertion that the "only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun," he was tapping into the already well-seeded notion that hidden guns at arm's reach of their private owners increase public safety.

It's a powerful, seductive idea, particularly to Americans who favor personal liberty over communitarian ideals. It's also completely wrong, according to a new analysis of nearly 40 years' worth of crime data.

For years, the question has been, is there any public safety benefit to right to carry laws? That is now settled. The answer is no." —John Donohue, Stanford Law School

In a new working paper published on June 21 by the National Bureau of Economic Research, academics at Stanford Law School ran that data through four different statistical models—including one developed by Lott for More Guns, Less Crime—and came back with an unambiguous conclusion: states that made it easier for their citizens to go armed in public had higher levels of non-fatal violent crime than those states that restricted the right to carry. The exception was the narrower category of murder; there, the researchers determined that any effect on homicide rates by expanded gun-carry policies is statistically insignificant.




link

i'm not opposed to gun ownership. but as far as the public sphere debate goes, this study could very well turn the tide of public opinion about gun law reforms.


Edited by millzy (07/10/17 09:59 PM)


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Offlineshivas.wisdom
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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy] * 3
    #24470010 - 07/09/17 02:24 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Next on American studies the rest of the world already knew: universal healthcare reduces associated costs.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (07/09/17 03:26 PM)


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: shivas.wisdom] * 1
    #24470047 - 07/09/17 02:40 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
Next on American studies the rest of the world already new: universal healthcare reduces associated costs.




it's easy to say that americans are stupid. while i suppose that is true of some of us, a lot of our problems revolve around the fact that we don't really have a say in our policies. like healthcare, our gun control policies are disproportionately influenced - and in some cases created - by the industry they are intended to regulate.


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy] * 4
    #24470088 - 07/09/17 02:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm not saying Americans are stupid, more pointing out the odd cultural forces that are, seemingly, unique to the USA. Most countries have policy informed by interests other than those of their general populations, but it seems like in the USA anti-intellectualism runs rampant.

The policies may be industry created, but the general population sure seems to support them. Do you think this study will have an effect on the gun debate in the USA?


edit: see post below.


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Edited by shivas.wisdom (07/09/17 02:57 PM)


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Offlinemyc-check
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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy] * 1
    #24470089 - 07/09/17 02:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

As long as I am not criminally or mentaly disqualified, the right for me to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed.

You as well if you choose to exercise it. Should you choose not too, respectfully, get off my cloud.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy]
    #24470130 - 07/09/17 03:10 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
For years, the question has been, is there any public safety benefit to right to carry laws? That is now settled. The answer is no." —John Donohue, Stanford Law School



I thought that was settled a long time ago.  But it doesn't prevent people from fantasizing they'll be a super hero one day.


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24470183 - 07/09/17 03:38 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

When civilians lose the right to own firearms is when I think the trouble would begin. People don't need to have their handgun to go to the damn grocery store. It's unnerving walking around in fucking price chopper and seeing someone with a pistol at their side.

I understand the whole self defense thing but honestly it just makes me anxious knowing that any person whom has not been deemed unfit to carry a concealed weapon could have a mental break for whatever reason and decide to kill 7-8 people with a flick of the finger.

Keep your guns at home, if you don't feel safe where you live you should look into leaving that area.

Edit: well I suppose me being anxious could be a better alternative than someone freaking out and shooting people with an illegally owned weapon and having nobody to stop them until the po-po show... We're all fucked anyways, better to be prepared for the worst...


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Edited by DeesKnots (07/09/17 03:42 PM)


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: DeesKnots]
    #24470375 - 07/09/17 04:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

It's actually not.  For, like, a lot of reasons.  That's including the fact that whether the weapon is owned legally or not is kind of irrelevant and that a freakout like that is way more likely with our current warrior fetish obsession.

That being said, the good thing about being shot at is that you need to be in a very specific place for the bullet to actually harm you.  So the best way to avoid being shot is to go somewhere where the bullets probably won't.  The general direction of away is a pretty good choice, and it's even better if there are a few big fucking rocks to hide behind as you retreat.  It's an even better idea when you consider that you are not being specifically targeted and that the shooter is very likely looking for the easiest thing to shoot rather than trying to hunt people down.

Protip: If the shooter is inside a building then they aren't outside of the building.  Windows are things that buildings have.  And the police aren't very likely to take chances with any gunman that they encounter at the scene of a mass shooting.  There's a reason why the response of people who actually went through combat, in a mass shooting, tends to center around evasion and escape.  Unless the ground that you're standing on happens to be worth dying for then there's no reason to stay and draw attention to yourself when you could be slipping away, unnoticed.  Also, don't peek your head around things to see what's going on.


Edited by chibiabos (07/09/17 04:49 PM)


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy]
    #24470520 - 07/09/17 04:47 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

This thread has been closed.

Reason:
3) Threads consisting of nothing more than a link, quote, or a video with no commentary or discussion from the threadstarter will be locked.


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: shivas.wisdom]
    #24473666 - 07/10/17 09:52 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

first off, thank you enlil for re-opening this thread.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The policies may be industry created, but the general population sure seems to support them. Do you think this study will have an effect on the gun debate in the USA?





1. i think a vast majority of people support more sensible gun laws, especially in light of nearly two decades of mass shootings that were carried out with legally obtained weapons. and let's be clear here: the debate is not about whether or not people should be allowed to own guns; it's about the impact that looser restrictions on concealed carry licenses have on public safety. stanford claims that impact is minimal, if not outright harmful.

2. as far as the gun debate goes, i'm under the impression that there's not really much of a debate in academe among political scientists, jurists and the like. opposition to gun law reform is almost wholly expressed on behalf of the gun industry, if not directly then by proxy by individuals who buy into it. as far as the public sphere debate goes, this study is substantial. they really haven't had a lot of data to work with until now. that might change minds.


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Edited by millzy (07/10/17 10:05 PM)


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy]
    #24473669 - 07/10/17 09:54 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

You need to edit the first post


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Invisiblemillzy
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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: Enlil]
    #24473674 - 07/10/17 09:55 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

just did. that work?


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy] * 1
    #24473682 - 07/10/17 09:58 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Yup.


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy]
    #24473761 - 07/10/17 10:33 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

they should make carrying guns mandatory for all over the age of 18. Certified crazy can be excused from the requirement


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: Stonehenge]
    #24473777 - 07/10/17 10:39 PM (3 years, 9 months ago)

I'm no gun nut, but it never made sense to me to ban guns. I mean criminals are still going to have guns regardless of the law, so then you just have criminals packing heat while everyone else can't have guns... I mean the logic behind that is pretty stupid

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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: Bird_Guts]
    #24474425 - 07/11/17 07:18 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Fuck you don't touch my guns.:mad2:

I'm trying to understand how this works..
A good person goes out, buys a gun, because they read a person was shot in a parking lot somewhere and they don't want to end up like that.
So they take a course, get their CCL and head out.
Now, when they were a perfectly normal person before is this study saying...

A. They become violent and kill someone with that gun.
B. enter into confrontation that doesn't involve them
C. Kill someone in self-defense which then being defined as violent crime?
D. Attract more violence to them somehow.

Trying to understand the human elements of the data, WHY does it increase violent rates, it's really not common sense.

I  mean just a quick look at something fishy about this
"Donohue cites a 2013 report from the National Crime Victimization Survey that showed in 99.2 percent of the violent attacks in the United States, no gun is ever used defensively – despite the nearly 300 million guns in circulation in the country today."

why would you attack someone visibly armed with a gun?
of those 99.2 percent, how many were carrying at the time?

I definitely don't have any counter-information so I'm rolling with it for now.


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24474674 - 07/11/17 10:33 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Its because of the many idiots running around loose. Hotheads who shoot someone now because they cut them off in traffic or said something they didn't like. If we had some sort of test to see which are the hothead idiots and which are normal people that would be great. But then the idiots would holler about discrimination.


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24474753 - 07/11/17 11:22 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

millzy said:
For years, the question has been, is there any public safety benefit to right to carry laws? That is now settled. The answer is no." —John Donohue, Stanford Law School



I thought that was settled a long time ago.  But it doesn't prevent people from fantasizing they'll be a super hero one day.




What exactly is "public safety benefit"? 

People own guns for personal safety benefit.


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: millzy]
    #24474766 - 07/11/17 11:31 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

millzy said:
first off, thank you enlil for re-opening this thread.

Quote:

shivas.wisdom said:
The policies may be industry created, but the general population sure seems to support them. Do you think this study will have an effect on the gun debate in the USA?





1. i think a vast majority of people support more sensible gun laws, especially in light of nearly two decades of mass shootings that were carried out with legally obtained weapons. and let's be clear here: the debate is not about whether or not people should be allowed to own guns; it's about the impact that looser restrictions on concealed carry licenses have on public safety. stanford claims that impact is minimal, if not outright harmful.

2. as far as the gun debate goes, i'm under the impression that there's not really much of a debate in academe among political scientists, jurists and the like. opposition to gun law reform is almost wholly expressed on behalf of the gun industry, if not directly then by proxy by individuals who buy into it. as far as the public sphere debate goes, this study is substantial. they really haven't had a lot of data to work with until now. that might change minds.




"opposition to gun law reform is almost wholly expressed on behalf of the gun industry"

No, people that value their freedom also oppose "gun law reform".

"this study is substantial...might change minds"

I believe the study is filled with flaws, it's impossible to establish a direct correlation of open carry laws and higher crime.


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Re: stanford law school debunks "good guy with a gun myth" [Re: Cinnamon]
    #24474775 - 07/11/17 11:35 AM (3 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:

Trying to understand the human elements of the data, WHY does it increase violent rates, it's really not common sense.





Could it be the other way around?  Could it be that states with higher levels of violent crime tend to support gun ownership more in reaction to that violent crime rate?

In any case, there's nothing particularly new with this.  We've been told for decates by the gun-control lobby that gun ownership doesn't promote safety.


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