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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: DJ_avocado]
    #24464030 - 07/07/17 02:46 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TNK said:
Heaven forbid you wowned up somewhere that those things weren't readily available.




Chances are, even without pain medications, you'll be fine. As I mentioned previously, opiates aren't that effective at curbing pain to begin with (unless you take them BEFORE your pain begins).

If women can go through childbirth without any anesthetics or medication, then I assure you, you will be fine with whatever other alternative is out there. There are so many alternatives to analgesics besides morphine.

Jesus, maybe I was a much tougher 12 year old than I realized. I got pretty major surgery without any pain medication and I was just fine. I wasn't hurting extraordinarily badly or anything.

It's funny, because no other country besides the USA coddles their patients to the extreme that they do. In a lot of other countries, they only give an opiate just before surgery, and that's it. Nothing afterwards.

My aunt had surgery on her ovaries in Japan, and she complained about the pain a day after. The nurse scolded her and lectured her, that she had better toughen up and start practicing to walk only a day after her surgery, because otherwise she's going to turn into one of those disabled people who will do nothing but lay in bed all day. They didn't give her morphine, or any type of pain meds for weeks on end after.

It's only the USA where they keep people on pain medications for weeks, months, and even YEARS after a procedure.  It's ridiculous if you ask me.My old doctor was one of these people.  You'd see perfectly healthy-looking, able-bodied 18, 19 year olds walking around in his office, freaking out about not being able to get their oxycodone refilled on time. (He ended up getting raided by the DEA multiple times, btw)




Quote:

DJ_avocado said:
I love how so many people have beefs with vaccines and individual rights and still choose to circumcise their kids....

..by the way the full article can be found on scihub if anyone cares to read it.

...this isn't really a vaccine though?  The effects are temporary and over time it would be possible to return to normal.

I think it would make a great treatment for addiction, but if some permanent immunity to heroin was the outcome, than it probably would've been stated in the paper.  Likely, it's because the effects are temporary...idk, I'm skeptical.




Well they are currently trying to figure out a way to make the vaccine permanent.

But frankly, I think it would be better to make the vaccine semi-permanent as opposed to permanent. A couple booster shots throughout the rest of your life, that ought to be good. In case anybody changes their mind down the road. A vaccine that lasts 1 year for example, that would be a lot better than permanent.

(And I am totally against circumcision btw, if I had a son I would not circumcise him). I would, however, vaccinate him.

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OfflineTNK
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24464038 - 07/07/17 02:55 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Yeah- I don't know why you'd be worried about babies and pre-teens doing heroin- but hey; it's a crazy world.


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Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)

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OfflineTNK
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24464043 - 07/07/17 02:57 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

When I was 13 i shattered my knee cap and tore both acls in my knee. They pumped me full of morphine with little to no effect, the most excruciating pain of my life. It was like torture.

Few year later I severed my Achilles tendon and felt zero pain- it's crazy how our bodies handle I injury.


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Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)

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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: TNK]
    #24464050 - 07/07/17 03:03 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TNK said:
Yeah- I don't know why you'd be worried about babies and pre-teens doing heroin- but hey; it's a crazy world.




Well, assuming they figure out a way to make the vaccines last forever--you'd be worried about them doing it as a teenager or young adult, I presume.

Quote:

TNK said:
When I was 13 i shattered my knee cap and tore both acls in my knee. They pumped me full of morphine with little to no effect, the most excruciating pain of my life. It was like torture.

Few year later I severed my Achilles tendon and felt zero pain- it's crazy how our bodies handle I injury.




I had a similar injury when I was your age. When I was 12, I broke both bones in my forearm, my bone was sticking out of my skin and my forearm was completely bent at a 90 degree angle.

I always had a high pain tolerance though, when I went to the hospital, the entire staff marveled and was surprised that I was not crying at all. I've always been pretty good at ignoring pain even when I was a little kid.

They gave me morphine in the hospital, it did absolutely nothing to alleviate my pain. I ended up declining all pain medications after my surgery because all the medicine did was make me groggy and sleepy.

So frankly, I'm not all that convinced that morphine even helps with pain. I really think USA doctors should be using ketamine or one of its analogues, because it's sooooo much more effective at curbing pain.

Sounds like you developed a really high pain tolerance after you had such a severe injury.

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24464056 - 07/07/17 03:07 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

I think you should use thids treatment only if an addict wants help in staying clean, not as a preventive treatment.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Asante]
    #24464062 - 07/07/17 03:11 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
I think you should use thids treatment only if an addict wants help in staying clean, not as a preventive treatment.




I think it would actually be okay as a preventative treatment especially if the parents were former addicts, because of the genetic predisposition to it. And if they're living in a neighborhood where heroin use is rampant on top of that, that increases the likelihood by ten fold or more.

If you see that your teenage kid is spiraling out of control, has an addictive personality, is completely defiant and has shut you out, and is experimenting with a bunch of different drugs recklessly, I don't think that this vaccine is a bad option out there.

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OfflineDJ_avocado
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24464067 - 07/07/17 03:14 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

I know circumcision is totally aside from this topic but nobody feels upset for being vaccinated.

Hypothetically.....If it were possible to desensitize a person to physical pain, so that pain relievers wouldn't be necessary, can you imagine the applications?  We have the "super soldier" formula right there!

If it were possible to "mimic" the intense painful experience to develop a tolerance than I imagine many people might take that shot...

...maybe that's why we cut the dick skin of baby boys!  Make'em stronger 'eh!

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24464068 - 07/07/17 03:15 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Its a form of neutering.

Your child has a right toi die by his own hand, as a junkie in the gutter.

Thats a choice.

We do everything to prevent that fate but, ultimately its their choice.

The one thing we have in life is that we can choose how we live or die.

Thats the right of being alive.

We did not choose our birth but we may choose our demise if we so choose.

But: Choose Life :heroin:


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InvisibleAsante
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Asante]
    #24464069 - 07/07/17 03:15 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Its not a vaccine.

Heroin is not a disease.

Heroin is a choice and you take that choice away from your child.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Asante]
    #24464073 - 07/07/17 03:20 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Its not a vaccine.

Heroin is not a disease.

Heroin is a choice and you take that choice away from your child.




Quote:

Asante said:
Its a form of neutering.

Your child has a right toi die by his own hand, as a junkie in the gutter.

Thats a choice.

We do everything to prevent that fate but, ultimately its their choice.

The one thing we have in life is that we can choose how we live or die.

Thats the right of being alive.

We did not choose our birth but we may choose our demise if we so choose.

But: Choose Life :heroin:





I can tell you don't have children, because few parents would be wiling to let their children die in the gutter without intervening.

I can assure you that if i I saw somebody attempting to commit suicide, I would most definitely try to intervene.

Like yeah, they might want to commit suicide NOW, but how many people have done something and then regretted it later? A shitload of times.

A lot of people, when they survive a suicide attempt, say that they are so grateful that they survived later on.

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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24464086 - 07/07/17 03:44 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Crystal_G, look in the other thread. I just helped an OD case to get medical attention.

If anyone cares, its ME.

You do not take preventive action against heroin addiction by vaccinating your child against opioids.

Opioids are a choice.

If you have 100 people who once use heroin..
90% keeps it at one time
9% gets addiction issues
1% becomes a street junkie

An addiction is the school of hard knocks, you either fix yourself or it kills you.

What is next? A vaccine against weed? A vaccine against playing, so they get better grades?

I love all people, enough to let them make their own mistakes, and help them with all my power if they do get in trouble.

I'm very sad that I am not a father, ok? I'm at the age and its not for me. I would go through Hell and back for my child. But if you truly love a xchild you allow it to make its own mistakes and learn from it, and do anything in your power to help them. And if all else fails, you bury them with digmnity knowing that they have LIVED.




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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Asante]
    #24464103 - 07/07/17 04:14 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Asante said:
Crystal_G, look in the other thread. I just helped an OD case to get medical attention.

If anyone cares, its ME.




If you use the search engine, you will realize that many years ago, I also helped an OD case get medical attention. And I gave tips on how to receive medical attention without attracting police attention while calling over 911 dispatch.

Quote:

If you have 100 people who once use heroin..
90% keeps it at one time
9% gets addiction issues
1% becomes a street junkie




So, those numbers are skewed greatly based on how the statistics are calculated.

The Institute of Medicine of the National Academy of Science says 32% of people who try tobacco become dependent, as do 23% of those who try heroin, 17% who try cocaine, 15% who try alcohol and 9% who try marijuana. If we're going to talk about recreational use, even heroin can be used without addiction by a large majority.

BUT, how many of those people are people who have tried it one time, as opposed to doing it regularly and recreationally? Because there are a lot of people who try 1 or 2 cigarettes in high school trying to look cool, but they don't like the taste or they ended up getting a sore throat, so they never do it again.

Similarly, there are also a lot of people who try heroin one time, and then puke their brains out, and hate the effects so much, they never do it again. It's important to not bunch together people who try something only once, and people who use it on a regular basis, because it affects the numbers of people who are able to use it consistently without falling into addiction.

Again, the reason alcohol is associated with such a high number of violence and casualties, is because over 70% of society consumes alcohol regularly. If 70% of society were to use meth or heroin the same way they consume alcohol, you would see a lot more violence, a lot more overdoses, as well as child neglect, child abuse, domestic violence between partners, and more crime in general.

There was an Australian chief justice (named something Wayne if I remember correctly) who recently said that close to 95% of armed robberies and half of all murder cases seen in court in Perth, Australia were attributed or related to methamphetamine. That's way higher than alcohol. (Australia recently went through a huge meth epidemic, kind of like the USA did back in the early 2000's).

Alcohol surely is harmful too, but drugs would be too, if they were used on the scale that alcohol is. I mean, look at prescription drugs--they kill more people than car accidents. Prescription drugs kill far more people than alcohol, and people don't even consume narcotic prescription drugs nearly as much as alcohol.

It is simply pro-drug propaganda to twist the statistics like that, and claim that alcohol is more harmful without taking into account the statistical differences in consumption rates. I used to believe that too, until I REALLY thought about it.

P.S. If heroin can be easily consumed without addictive tendencies, then how did the British so easily enslave the Chinese during the Opium War?

Quote:

]What is next? A vaccine against weed? A vaccine against playing, so they get better grades?

I love all people, enough to let them make their own mistakes, and help them with all my power if they do get in trouble.

I'm very sad that I am not a father, ok? I'm at the age and its not for me. I would go through Hell and back for my child. But if you truly love a xchild you allow it to make its own mistakes and learn from it, and do anything in your power to help them. And if all else fails, you bury them with digmnity knowing that they have LIVED.




Believe it or not, I have the same philosophy that you do. I want my children to have a normal social life, to go out there and do all the normal teenager things, like going to parties and prom or whatever. Weed, fine. Heroin isn't one of them.

And that's exactly why I'm for a heroin vaccine, but not an MDMA or LSD vaccine.

Edited by Crystal G (07/07/17 04:21 AM)

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Crystal G] * 1
    #24464139 - 07/07/17 05:12 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Sorry for the harsh words Crystal_G, no offense was intended, I'm just all fired up from the whole situation.

We are on the same page but have differing views on what constitutes Harm Reduction.

We have a generation of physically and socially hypersensitive, allergic millenials because they were pampered to death.

Cant play outside because there is a predator behind every tree
Cant do a damn thing without the mommacopter hovering over you killing all the fun
High material wealth, low levels of love because mom and dad both work their asses off
Grew up in daycare, after school care.

They need to break free and discover life or there will be hell to pay when they inherit the worlds power.

Let them play with fireworks like when I was a kid. Real m-80s that can take a hand off. A hardhitting BB gun. Actual chemicals in the chemistry set and actual drugs to watch out for.

Expose them to risks so they wisen up.

Its the best way.

We got to be as awesome as we are because the mommacopter backed off in time and left us to figure things out for ourselves.

Tough love, but the world is a tough place.

The world is live ammo.




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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Asante]
    #24464201 - 07/07/17 06:06 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Just because you had "major surgery" at 12 with no painkillers, does not mean that this is something everyone should experience. Seems pretty fucking stupid to me. Why go through that for no real reason?

Trying to be a tough ass? There is not always something prove, cg, you aren't "superman"

People feel pain, it is a fact of life. Thats what opiates are for.

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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: RockyRaccoon] * 1
    #24464209 - 07/07/17 06:18 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

That last sentence is a mind fuck. I think u meant: Everyone feels pain. But they dont have to. Thanks to heroin.

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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: LogicaL Chaos]
    #24464210 - 07/07/17 06:21 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

:yesnod:

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InvisibleAsante
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: RockyRaccoon]
    #24464212 - 07/07/17 06:26 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

In the UK they give Diamorphine (pure heroin) to dying patients because its better than morphine.

If I need extreme painkilling through my doctor, I much rather h'd give me Heroin than Morphine.

Lets not demonize a perfectly good drug for pain relief.


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OfflinemndfreezeMDiscordReddit
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: ONE OZ SLUG] * 1
    #24464229 - 07/07/17 06:43 AM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

ONE OZ SLUG said:
From the Journal of American Chemical Society (which is linked in the article)

Quote:

Heroin is a highly abused opioid and incurs a significant detriment to society worldwide. In an effort to expand the limited pharmacotherapy options for opioid use disorders, a heroin conjugate vaccine was developed through comprehensive evaluation of hapten structure, carrier protein, adjuvant and dosing. Immunization of mice with an optimized heroin-tetanus toxoid (TT) conjugate formulated with adjuvants alum and CpG oligodeoxynucleotide (ODN) generated heroin “immunoantagonism”, reducing heroin potency by >15-fold. Moreover, the vaccine effects proved to be durable, persisting for over eight months. The lead vaccine was effective in rhesus monkeys, generating significant and sustained antidrug IgG titers in each subject. Characterization of both mouse and monkey antiheroin antibodies by surface plasmon resonance (SPR) revealed low nanomolar antiserum affinity for the key heroin metabolite, 6-acetylmorphine (6AM), with minimal cross reactivity to clinically used opioids. Following a series of heroin challenges over six months in vaccinated monkeys, drug-sequestering antibodies caused marked attenuation of heroin potency (>4-fold) in a schedule-controlled responding (SCR) behavioral assay. Overall, these preclinical results provide an empirical foundation supporting the further evaluation and potential clinical utility of an effective heroin vaccine in treating opioid use disorders.




Not really a point in vaccinating your child from heroin if it's only going to last eight months. It also seems like you can get around it by doing 15 times the amount of heroin, or just not getting the next booster shot. It's not like a measles shot by any means.

Let's pretend for a moment they do come out with a vaccine that permanently blocks all heroin from reaching the brain. I'd want to thoroughly research what exactly I'm putting into my child before I make a decision like that. I'd want to read some studies on long term effects as well. It might seem relatively harmless  and almost foolhardy for a parent to not immunize their child from heroin, but I'd rather raise my child to be able to think intelligently about his/her decisions and what they put into their body. It's not as though heroin is some highly contagious airborne virus, anyway, and it's also not like they'd trip over a bag of heroin on their way to school.





I'm super glad someone else saw this part, because I was thinking the exact same shit.  It only lasts "up to 8 months" so really, its not a vaccine in the traditional sense.  Its more like a temporary stop gap.  Mostly useful for people who are already addcts to stay clean after they have already gotten off the stuff to start.

This shit isn't for your babies and children or even pre-teens. (ok, maybe for your preteen if they already went junky I suppose)

Also this does most likely cause severe risk when actual pain management needs to happen.  Holy shit would it sucks to be in a car accident after taking this stuff.


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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: Crystal G]
    #24465379 - 07/07/17 02:53 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

LogicaL Chaos said:
Ive seen news stories where kids took vaccines then developed autism and down syndrome (nailed it) symptoms.

Coincidence? I think not!







Crystal G responded with pretty much what I was going to say>>>>




Quote:

Crystal G said:
.....It is coincidence. A lot of these vaccines are given right around the age that people start showing symptoms for autism. So a lot of parents who aren't informed see their parents developing autism right around the same time they get the shots, and they think the shots caused the autism.

There are people who aren't vaccinated who still get autism and Down's, explain that....


.....And, I'd like to let you know... that it was only the MMR vaccine that was supposedly linked to autism.... not all of them. It was only that one. So it doesn't really make sense to be afraid of all vaccines.

I do agree that too many vaccines can be overwhelming to the immune system and can cause adverse reactions (like a fever). To minimize the risks, I think you should try to limit it to 1 or 2 vaccines per visit, instead of the multiple shots they give you at once.

I mean, I'm pretty open-minded, I won't say that it's NOT possible. I suppose that is possible.

But, on the other hand, if nobody were vaccinated, then you would simply have tons of kids disabled from diseases like polio, or dying of other contagious diseases.

There's a saying, the needs of the greater good exceeds the needs of the few... and this is one of those cases.








^^That's more or less what I was going to say....I concur with all of that.


I'm naturally a bit wary of and mistrustful of vaccines & big pharma, and big government requiring such things. So much so that I would be very hesitant to get my kid vaccinated if I ever had a kid, part of me just doesn't feel right with it, though I would still do so and the other part of me knows it's ultimately beneficial to society/humanity :yesnod: ...I naturally tend to be a lil paranoid about things :lol: , and I can totally understand & see where people are coming from with all the different conspiracies and worries about vaccines...



....but as far as vaccines specifically causing autism specifically, I don't really believe such, or haven't been convinced yet....

I am actually on the autism spectrum :yesnod: . I don't feel that it's even inherently a negative thing (most with autism do not want a "cure" and do not want to be "fixed"), though no doubt those on the more severe end of the spectrum do have more difficulties in life and no doubt there are some with autism that do want to be " neuro-typical " .







-OM



.


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OfflineCrystal G
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Re: The Heroin Vaccine: Would You Give It To Your Kid? [Re: RockyRaccoon]
    #24466362 - 07/07/17 09:46 PM (6 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

RockyRaccoon said:
Just because you had "major surgery" at 12 with no painkillers, does not mean that this is something everyone should experience. Seems pretty fucking stupid to me. Why go through that for no real reason?

Trying to be a tough ass? There is not always something prove, cg, you aren't "superman"

People feel pain, it is a fact of life. Thats what opiates are for.




Hahaha, plenty of women choose to go through childbirth (which is a pain equivalent to breaking dozens of bones in your body), without any anesthesia. People are a lot tougher than you think, and in this country we have a huge problem with overmedication where people are on opiates even when they are able-bodied and don't NEED to be, and they remain on opiates for YEARS and YEARS, long after their injury has healed.

My point was that the majority of the world does not take a pill for every migraine, backache, sprain, or paper cut that you get.

Also did you not read the part where I posted that opiates aren't even an effective pain reliever in many circumstances? And there are dozens of different opiate compounds, so if you can't take morphine there are plenty of others you can be given. And if you don't want to take a narcotic pain reliever, there are literally hundreds of other alternatives depending on what you're trying to treat.

Frankly, I think ketamine and MXE are far more effective at relieving pain than heroin. I don't know why the medical community doesn't use these compounds more in surgeries and stuff.

Quote:

mndfreeze said:
Also this does most likely cause severe risk when actual pain management needs to happen.  Holy shit would it sucks to be in a car accident after taking this stuff.




It wouldn't suck that much, because you can still be given oxycodone or dilaudid or fentanyl.

Edited by Crystal G (07/07/17 09:52 PM)

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