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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #26282639 - 10/28/19 03:01 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Very nice :smile: why not make it rice flour? couldnt hurt right


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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Solipsis]
    #26282741 - 10/28/19 03:44 PM (4 years, 3 months ago)

Any flour, although it's better to make your own from the grain you intend to use as spawn. You can also use grain water (from cooking), although it's un-measured.
To point out, the test was open air, and the secondary test was a transfer, T-Gel is not immune to lignicolous (wood loving) bacteria.

If the peg had bacteria that can utilize phenolic compounds, I would have an issue to clean up.

----

Quote:

Ferather said:
Turns out the infection from the vendor wood spawn is internal, it erupts at random locations (possibly weaker mycelium).
The organism, most likely bacteria or combination, is cream-yellow, and produces a slime like colony.

           



----

In the above example it's possible to cook, cut down wooden toothpicks, in bleach (caution) or salt water.
The multi-cellular mycelium should be able to tolerate the toxic peg, and grow on it.

The peg should be transferred to a normal agar recipe, for inspection.


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Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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OfflineAlwaysAtHeight
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Ferather] * 2
    #26288278 - 10/30/19 08:24 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I just had to post this somewhere. My second flush of blue oyster coming in from my first grow in 20 years. Wbs to strait coir.


--------------------
The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.

-Carlos Castaneda


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Offlinesenescence
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: AlwaysAtHeight]
    #26291887 - 11/01/19 12:08 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

what is a reasonable weekly time cost to produce 150-200lbs of mushrooms? as in, how many hours must one reasonably put in to produce that many shroomies (let's say oysters for simplicity sake and a nice optimistic calculation)? assuming 'average joe' grade equipment, and not necassarily including more passive activities like pressure cooking or boiling grains.

i know these questions are often met with flame, but I'm curious. Right now I'm spending tremendous amounts of time weekly (mostly because I'm building my grow room and I don't have a flow hood or bags yet) and I'm hoping the light at the end of the tunnel is closer to around 10-20 hours weekly so I can get back to having a life


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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: senescence] * 1
    #26291980 - 11/01/19 12:53 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I've never seen this before, now I have two phenotypes from the same genetics, area, that grew out (which now has taken over the peg).
This suggests that mycelium grows differently due to the media, and nutrition (in this case the agar and wooden peg).

The wooden peg and leaf debris produces abundant mycelium, the growth on the T-Gel + flour is more linear.
It would seem, the Tarragon oyster mycelium is bringing nutrients from the agar to the peg.

This also suggests that other carbon sources are spent to decay cellulose.

   

https://imgur.com/a/8jngxe8

----

Note: Tarragon oyster produces, Linalool and coumarin.

====

Here is Cubensis spores on WL-Tek + wood peg with trace sucrose. They germinated and grew after ~4 days, but required sucrose.
Paper pellets are nearly 100% "slow release, almost non-reactive" cellulose (no simple sugar, starch or phenols).

Without the sucrose, the spores would have no viable carbon source to spend, cellulase requires resources.

   

====

Paper pellets have about 1% chance to germinate molds and other mycelium, due to fractional decay.
If I add a carbon source such as phenols (e.g. lignin, tannin), this goes up to 50%+.

====

T-Gel, in a nutshell:

Phenols-other require oxidation to decay, oxidizing agents also decay organisms (cell-other damage), organisms which produce antioxidants should survive.
T-Gel plain, contains no sugar, starch or cellulose, only organisms capable of decaying and converting phenols-other can grow.

Cons: 25-33% slower then standard agar recipes, generally cannot be used to germinate spores.

Notes: Requires more oxygen than some current agar setups.

----

WL-Tek, in a nutshell:

Does not add starch or sugar to the main media, reducing contamination chances largely in comparison to bran-other (contains starch, sugar).
The soluble phenols-other are removed during the paper making process, the only source would be any added materials (wood).

Cons: Starch based spawn must be used, as the complex cellulose is relatively non-reactive and slow to decay.

Notes: Various mycelium may prefer a different pH, and level of nutrients (example, less).

====

Note: Coco coir and wood are a composition of cellulose and phenols, plus other.

====

Cubensis Burma transfer to T-Gel plain, producing white-rot effect, due to oxidative decay, absorption and conversion of phenolic compounds.
In addition, the Cubensis on T-Gel produced bruising when exposed to O2 (removed lid), without starch-cellulose present.

               


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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Edited by Ferather (11/01/19 01:55 PM)


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #26297633 - 11/04/19 05:49 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

I was planning on using sawdust shavings from a garden furniture shop, but it's incredibly voluminous so it sucks to put in bags this way.

Guess I need a shredder for my startup business, and might as well buy one if this is going to be a structural thing... I have no idea though about the types of shredders that exist and getting the right size chips/dust as result. Or about the size of the shredder to use if its gonna be like hundreds of liters over time.

Any ideas?

@ Ferather:

in what sort of situation would you imagine wanting to use something like grain spawn to put on such a contam resistant material as WL tek? Exotic woodlovers? Cause you could just use unsupplemented wood?

If you give the spores a little sugar to start with, thats enough for cubensis to keep growing out breaking down complex cellulose?


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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Solipsis]
    #26297917 - 11/04/19 09:03 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)



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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: TedsDead]
    #26300088 - 11/05/19 07:20 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

That is a bit costly... I don't think a lot of force is needed to chip what I have... I have thin shavings but they are just quite large (well size varies but too much of it is too large and makes it voluminous). So was really hoping to get a more low profile unit.
Particle size just anything that would make these shavings sit compact enough to fill a nice typical bag to be 6 or 7 pounds or something and not this barely 2 pound stuff.

I can get this wood for free and the sustainability is important to me.

thnx i will go checking around and do more orientation


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OfflineAlwaysAtHeight
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Solipsis]
    #26301620 - 11/05/19 07:54 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

The mushroom Gods smiled upon me and blessed me with my first chaga today!



--------------------
The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.

-Carlos Castaneda


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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: AlwaysAtHeight]
    #26301623 - 11/05/19 07:57 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

awesome!  do you use it medicinally?  I've been reading a lot about it lately.  considering cult.


--------------------
weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed...  -the fabulous furry freak bros
If you can buy it, you can burn it!



https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396


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OfflineAlwaysAtHeight
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: TedsDead]
    #26301660 - 11/05/19 08:22 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

All mushrooms are medicinal as far as I'm concerned, but I've only had it a couple times and it was delicious so I'm going for taste plus benefits. It helps I quit drinking coffee last week and playing with different teas. I'm on maté now.


--------------------
The trick is in what one emphasizes. We either make ourselves miserable, or we make ourselves happy. The amount of work is the same.

-Carlos Castaneda


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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: AlwaysAtHeight]
    #26301806 - 11/05/19 10:15 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

kinda like how I just drink coffee for the taste... 


literally my sentiment on coffee.  Im  a tea man too now:grin:

careful. mates  a slippery slope. lol!


--------------------
weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed...  -the fabulous furry freak bros
If you can buy it, you can burn it!



https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396


Edited by TedsDead (11/05/19 10:29 PM)


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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Solipsis]
    #26302332 - 11/06/19 08:13 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Quote:

Solipsis said:
@ Ferather:

in what sort of situation would you imagine wanting to use something like grain spawn to put on such a contam resistant material as WL tek? Exotic woodlovers? Cause you could just use unsupplemented wood?

If you give the spores a little sugar to start with, thats enough for cubensis to keep growing out breaking down complex cellulose?



Unsupplemented wood will have around 0.1% nitrogen and limited other nutrients such as potassium, so on, its a structure material not a complete food source.
The fertilizer additive adds more of the essential nutrients, which increases yield (like adding bran), but without the contamination risk.

You can also do WL-Tek wood, which again has the same effect as adding bran, but has a good chance to germinate mold.
This is because wood contains simple and complex phenols, which as I found can germinate spores.

----

WL-Tek supplimented pine wood pellets, and again but exposed to air on assembly.
I can do the same with paper pellets, and not get any mold for years.

   

   

----

While Cubensis can be adapted to decay phenols alone (see here), it's not that great with complex cellulose alone.

Starch spawn will continue to provide essential energy-other to decay cellulose (example coco coir).
Without the spawn, you will need to add sugar (fast release carbon) to the whole media.

----

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2256&v=y7mdAS7KlRw



--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #26302358 - 11/06/19 08:39 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

:takingnotes:


--------------------
weed gets you through times of no money better than money gets you through times of no weed...  -the fabulous furry freak bros
If you can buy it, you can burn it!



https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/25947396#25947396


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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: TedsDead]
    #26303065 - 11/06/19 02:12 PM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Summer oyster benefiting from nitrogen fixating blue-green algae.
Fruiting from nitrogen deficient cotton wood, @ 7°C.





Possibly: Gloeocapsa magma


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #26306786 - 11/08/19 09:04 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Wood peg to T-Gel + flour:

The vigorous cellulose growth has pretty much taken over the plate, the wood peg and tea leaf (cellulose) have produced abundant mycelium.
It's seems to be a two stage process, first, send out mycelium to gather resources, then, decay the cellulose and grow again.

Visibly the mycelium changes phenotype based on what it's decaying and level of nutrients available.

       

Tarragon oyster is extremely efficient.

====

Nutrients (excludes the trace flour):

Tea leaves, Ready-to-drink (agar), Whole flour, Phenolic content in tea.

Proteins, varies:  [ Cx | Hx | Ox | Nx ] x. -- Trace, minimal.
Polyphenols, varies:  [ Cx | Hx | Ox ] x. -- Phenols.
Cellulose: [ C6 | H10 | O5 ] x. -- Trace, debris.

Theobromine:  C7 | H8 | N4 | O2. -- Methylxanthine.
Theophylline:  C7 | H8 | N4 | O2. -- Methylxanthine.
Caffeine:  C8 | H10 | N4 | O2. -- Methylxanthine.

Theaflavin:  C29 | H24 | O12. -- Polyphenol.
Tannins:  C76 | H52 | O46. -- Polyphenol.
Catechin:  C15 | H14 | O6. -- Phenol.
Flavonoids:  Cx | Hx | Ox. -- Phenol.

Carotene:  C40 | H56. -- Hydrocarbon.


Notes:

Tea leaves are high in fiber (cellulose, other), low in sugar (extract contains no sugar), and no starch.
The tea leaves are also rich in nitrogen and other essential nutrients, such as potassium.

----

In terms of agar wedges, isolation, an agar plate that contains the solubles present in your chosen wood type would be ideal.
In addition, using a flour made from your grain spawn is also ideal, as grain nutrient composition also varies.

While the cellulose in each wood types does not change, the phenolic (and other) compounds varies.
Note, various wood compounds will have an inhibitory (anti-fungal) effect or property.

Also note that wood and phenolic compounds are usually acidic.

----

https://imgur.com/a/8jngxe8


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

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Edited by Ferather (11/08/19 01:53 PM)


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Offlinecarnalrekt
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Ferather] * 1
    #26308532 - 11/09/19 04:01 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

:thumbup:


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: carnalrekt]
    #26313023 - 11/11/19 05:52 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Interesting thanks Ferather :smile:

But earlier you said you put sugar on the peg with cubensis spores, so this just works better but generally germinating the spores just with the phenols works too?

Unfortunately my experience with adding micronutrition like MG and or YN is that i do just easily get mold.
They are cool experiments but I struggle a bit to apply the methods effectively.

Not sure that these include solutions to my main issues which are wild cloning of mostly woodlovers, and germinating very old spores. Granted i have not actually tried germinating spores with WL tek. It could be very useful if it helps to overcome the problem that old spores with slow and low germination rate don't quite have the edge/advantage over present contams which may germinate in similar conditions.

--

Hey different question guys:

what can you tell me about using HWFP? I was originally planning on sustainably using wood shavings but while they are thin they are also large and make the substrate terribly voluminous. Shredding to a nice size would be a pain in the ass.

Fuel pellets do also have an aspect of sustainability but the pulpy nature seems to make them *much* easier and more straightforward to use. Not free like the shavings but with the PITA of the shavings they are not actually "free".
I'm still gonna mix in my shavings to get rid of them over time, mixed i hope it can compact properly.

I am a bit wary of ordering a half or whole pallet of 100% oak fuel pellets without testing, lol. So am gonna see about getting a smaller amount first.

But am curious: how do pellets like beech + pine work for growing? Is there no actual fungicidal sap present anyway so pine or part pine can be utilized by various woodlovers? Have you tried?


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OfflineFerather
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Solipsis] * 1
    #26313203 - 11/11/19 08:16 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Yes wood can be very annoying, it can already germinate mold, due to the non-cellulose components (phenols-other), even without modification.
Paper pellets should almost never germinate mold, even when non-carbon nutrients have been added (WL-Tek, soluble nutrients).

As long as the WL-Tek paper mix is pasteurized, or partly sterilized, complete, there should be no live mold or spores.
Since the paper pellets contain no real usable carbon to spend, practically nothing can germinate.

----

The Cubensis test was to show that when an additional, spendable, carbon source (sucrose) is added, spores can germinate on WL-Tek.
If I add phenolic compounds 'back' to the paper pellets, and do WL-Tek, I have a high chance of germinating mold (from air).

----

If I side-by-side WL-Tek 100% paper, and 50/50% wood-paper, the wood-paper has a higher chance to germinate mold (from air).
WL-Tek is an end media, intended to be spawned to, using grain that's colonized and contains ample 'starch'.

If you transfer live mold-other to WL-Tek, it 'can' grow out, this is because it's live already.

----

When I transferred a Tarragon oyster peg to 100% paper WL-Tek, it took 4-6 months (25g dry).

====

With wild clones, try pasteurizing some suitable wood, as small chips, and transfer tissue-stem to it.
Hopefully you get some growth, even if there's mold, try and take a sample to agar.


--------------------
                   

Growing mushrooms, general guide and information (Ferather's Journal), https://ibb.co/rG3rML2

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/27857366#27857366

DTS DCH Driver for Realtek [DTS:X] - Unlocked and reprogrammed.


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OfflineSolipsis
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Re: The Gourmet Cultivation Discussion Thread [Re: Ferather]
    #26313341 - 11/11/19 09:43 AM (4 years, 2 months ago)

Of course there will be mold spores if you do it open-air which i thought was the point of its ease of use.

Cool i will try pasteurizing wood for wild cloning, maybe it would be nice to use HWFP which i am getting into as mentioned.

When i added pieces of wild mushrooms to supplemented blanched paper pellets recently, it didn't look like most of them wanted to grow out - well except wood blewits - damn a lot of myc grows out of those fruits xD ... instead it just looked more putrefied and with any putrefied pieces of course molds can parasitize.

Maybe because i am busy i wait too long and shouldnt put them in such a cold fridge in the meanwhile, to be fair. So could easily be my bad - i will try again and do better.

I really hope i can salvage my Pleurotus dryinus :Z

Sparassis crispa is also such a bitch to clone, right now a friend is trying (mostly for me).. i was unable to do it last year from an old specimen that probably started to putrefy. It was also the one LC out of an order that arrived contaminated... Elusive :laugh:

If you have additional suggestions for cloning a species like that, aside from the pasteurized wood, would be cool to hear em!

============

I just put Ganoderma resinaceum wood chips on saline suspension as a test - i guess it will be the start of long term experiments lol. Probably quite a bad choice of species actually, cause the Ganoderma i have seen so far do not seem to suffer from senescence issues anyway. So I will try more difficult species as well for a real challenge.
The Ganoderma will be a fine pilot just to see what happens. I don't like that agar sticks to the wood when transfering but it will be eaten up.

I am amazed that not more information seems to be available on cryptobiosis. Things are said about fungi dying when they run out of O2 or substrate. While that may be partially true, it seems to me that with a combination of conditions metabolism can be suspended instead of running itself into the ground.
Take chemical degradation for example, many compounds can be stored very long if you are able to stop the relevant degradation processes. In that way, aging is relative if you can "pause time". I understand living beings are not synthetic chemicals, but we know there are ways microorganisms can go into forms of cryptobiosis.. would be great to harness this potential.

I will try to find the explanation behind saline suspensions. Also for non-woodlovers, while perhaps you can get myc to barricade itself into various materials without eating them, surely it would be better to use perlite infused with nutrients? Otherwise the wood used should probably have very low density. A chunk of coir might not be out of the question either.

============

I haven't done a good job of keeping my Tarragon oyster culture fresh and healthy, got snowed under.. i guess esp when i was unable to tell the characteristic aromatics very well when i grew some - but I'm encouraged to try again a bit later.

While not my first choice per se, I think for the professional grow room i might wanna start with sporeless oyster. Fast easy and especially a good indicator for [CO2], also no spore issues obviously.


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