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Offlineoranssi
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Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification * 1
    #24402439 - 06/13/17 03:20 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Well I don't know if this is controversal here at the shroomery, but I had to ask, if you folks would be willing to have extraordinary frost resistance on your botanical friends or even just other ornamental features, like different color or form of the plant.

Personally, I'm not against gene manipulation per se. But I might be against it when there is consciously and specifically work done to do harm. That being said, I have investigated scientific papers and found out that there is alot of work already being done since some decades ago, to better food crops and so on.

I talked to a friend of mine that is studing to be a Biomedical Engineer and has access to gama ray machines, to do an experiment with cacti seeds. She talked with here supervisor and her boss said Ok, but only if it is done as a kind of semester dicipline. This was some weeks ago, but meanwhile her boss had to go outside the country and holidays are approaching, so I guess no luck in the gama rays department...

So now the best next thing I thought about was doing a simple experiment with microwave oven. I know some people might have experiment with this.

I will experiment with 5 lots of 20 seed of Astrophytum myriostigma and Pachycereus schottii. If the result are promising I might experiment with Lophophoras and Trichocereus. What I'm aiming at is different phenotypes, like color, form, spination, enhanced medical properies, resistance to temperature extremes or resistance to rot.

I hope I can keep you updated.


Edited by oranssi (06/13/17 03:24 PM)


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InvisibleDualWieldRake
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi]
    #24402527 - 06/13/17 03:53 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds good, i'll have 2 of the frost resistant cacti :yesnod:

Just be carefull there aren't any flies or gnats in the oven when you perform this experiment...consequences will never be the same


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OfflineSpinScratch
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: DualWieldRake]
    #24403750 - 06/13/17 11:48 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Before putting your cacti seeds in the microwave. Test your experiment out on something less valuable, like corn seeds.


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Offlineoranssi
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: SpinScratch]
    #24404014 - 06/14/17 03:03 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

DualWieldRake, ahah that was funny. The Fly movie came to mind instantly. Will have that into account.

SpinScratch, I thought about that but considering this experiment to be time consuming and time is also of value, I decided to use cacti seeds that I have collected the last year and are lying around here.


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InvisibleballsalsaM
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi]
    #24404036 - 06/14/17 03:21 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

why not just play with colchicine or some other chem?

U.V. light maybe?


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Offlineoranssi
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24404047 - 06/14/17 03:33 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I have read somewhere before about the use of chemicals, some hazardous and difficult to use. But a quick search about colchicine revealed a plant that I have seen wild where I live. Maybe in the future I will do a simple extraction of the bulbs and put some seeds there to experiment.


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi]
    #24404064 - 06/14/17 03:46 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

You're honestly going to end up with sick cacti that are only good for comparing to healthy ones (so that you can find out which genes are associated with what trait).  And that's assuming that they even sprout.  No paper has ever recommended a dose of gamma rays as a means of editing a genome for any sort of a specific trait.  That would be like trying to pop a zit with a riot gun.

And Spin means that you'll just cook your seeds if you put them in a microwave.  Also that they might explode like corn kernels.


Edited by chibiabos (06/14/17 03:47 AM)


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Offlineoranssi
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: chibiabos]
    #24404085 - 06/14/17 04:17 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
No paper has ever recommended a dose of gamma rays as a means of editing a genome for any sort of a specific trait.





There is extensive study done on this (gamma rays and x-rays). Look for tables 23.x : 
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/283324731_Induced_Mutations_and_Crop_Improvement


And even using microwave, although it is less energetic comparing to gamma rays they too can induce mutagenesis.


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OfflineLSoares
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi] * 1
    #24404139 - 06/14/17 05:27 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The chances of getting a "usefull" mutation out of a batch of messed-about (with chemicals, radiation or whatever) seeds are similar to the chances of building a house just by dropping bricks from a height. Yes, you will be manipulating genes - but with a hammer and with boxing gloves put on.

Genetic improvement may be achieved much more surely by selective breeding. Just pick a number of plants that show a desireable trait and cross-pollinate them. Then pick the most promising seedlings and either cross-breed them or cross them back to their parents (always keep detailed records of all crossings and of a particular plant's progeny). It will take some time, but you will achieve results IF that particular trait is genetically controlled. A sort of formula to bear in mind is this:

P=G+E , in which P=Phenotype, G=Genetics and E=Environment.

There are numerous articles and books that will describe in detail the selective breeding process. Just google it and you'll find.

Stay safe. Radiation is no joke and I would be very wary of people that let you have access to it just for "nuking some seeds" (I'm assuming you don't have a degree that qualifies you to properly judge the implications of doing it).


--------------------
Z. in sunny Lisbon, Portugal
Cactus grower particularly fond of north american miniatures.
http://jardineiroazelha.blogspot.pt/

Sowing cacti - my way!
Random pictures of my collection.
Photographing cacti, Z's way.


Edited by LSoares (06/14/17 05:41 AM)


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: LSoares]
    #24404149 - 06/14/17 05:37 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Might be worth checking whether anything has been deleted first.  At the very least you might as well make sure that the chromosomes are more or less the same size.


Edited by chibiabos (06/14/17 05:56 AM)


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Offlineoranssi
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: LSoares]
    #24404156 - 06/14/17 05:45 AM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Hello LSoares, I'm a fan of work and follow it many years. I love your blog.
In relation to the experiment, I know it is a probabilistic approach. Your analogy of the brickhouse is spot on but in this case one has many tries. Chance happens for each seed so I believe the many seeds one uses, the better.

The other approach like you say, would be selective breeding, would take less seeds but it takes much more time, space and work. Each approach has advantages and disadvantages. It ends up to be a matter of personal preference at the moment, I guess.


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Offlineoranssi
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi] * 1
    #24410047 - 06/16/17 01:17 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Some pics of the procedure.

Microwave was set on 350W, divided seeds in different batch of 20 seeds. Seeds were in a cup with cold water when zapped with microwaves.

Astrophytum myriostygma:
group 0 - control 0 sec
group 1 - 10 sec
group 2 - 20 sec
group 3 - 30 sec
group 4 - 40 sec
group 5 - 50 sec

Frailea asterioides:
group 0 - control 0 sec
group 1 - 30 sec

Pachycereus schotti:
group 0 - control 0 sec
group 1 - 10 sec
group 2 - 20 sec
group 3 - 30 sec
group 4 - 40 sec

Parodia mammulosa:
group 0 - control 0 sec
group 1 - 10 sec
group 2 - 20 sec
group 3 - 30 sec


Lets see what comes out of this experiment, in a month or so.





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Invisiblenooneman
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi]
    #24410184 - 06/16/17 02:26 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Microwaves don't affect DNA. You can't just substitute gamma rays for any old type of radiation.

If you really wanted to try something along these lines, you'll want to buy uranium glass. It contains real uranium and is slightly radioactive.


Edited by nooneman (06/16/17 02:27 PM)


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi]
    #24410230 - 06/16/17 02:46 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Sounds like you just warmed up a few cups of water that had seeds in them.  Unless you actually killed the seeds by overheating or drowned them then you probably aren't going to see any variation that wasn't already there.  The frequency of those emissions matters a lot more than you think.


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: nooneman]
    #24410246 - 06/16/17 02:51 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Quote:

nooneman said:
Microwaves don't affect DNA. You can't just substitute gamma rays for any old type of radiation.

If you really wanted to try something along these lines, you'll want to buy uranium glass. It contains real uranium and is slightly radioactive.



They could, but not in any way that would really result in any mutation.  If the DNA weren't packed into a cell then you might get the strands to separate though.


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Offlineoranssi
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: chibiabos]
    #24410302 - 06/16/17 03:13 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

There are some experiments on the internets done in relation to seed germination once submited to simple microwave radiation.

I found this one look at chapter 5 for a conclusion.

and there is another one where they say to put the seeds in cold water, but can't find that now..


Edited by oranssi (06/16/17 03:14 PM)


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi]
    #24410313 - 06/16/17 03:17 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

Your microwave doesn't have an EHF source.  And that doesn't really involve any mutation.  It's sort of an affirmation that plants do respond to temperature and light, to be honest.


Edited by chibiabos (06/16/17 03:24 PM)


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Offlineoranssi
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: chibiabos]
    #24410342 - 06/16/17 03:28 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

They used 30 GHz and 75 Ghz. My oven is 50 GHz.


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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: oranssi]
    #24410429 - 06/16/17 04:17 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

I honestly doubt that.  Microwave ovens tend to be designed to have emissions at ~2.4 GHz and, to reiterate, the particular frequency is extremely important.  You can't just say that there's an absorption line at X Hz and then assume that you'll see absorption at 20X Hz.  And even if there is, you can't really just take that as an indication that the ultimate effect of those types of absorptions will be at all equivalent.


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Invisibleferrel_human
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Re: Microwaving and other ways to promote gene manipulation and diversification [Re: chibiabos]
    #24410475 - 06/16/17 04:42 PM (3 years, 10 months ago)

The best things microwaved are tv dinners. Hungry mans are the best. And the worst. :hmm:


--------------------
Nature is my church and walking through it is gospel. It tells no lies and reveals all to those who look, and listen, closely.
-Karode


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