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Invisiblevatman
I'm Vatman


Registered: 04/17/14
Posts: 1,642
Softwood fermentation
    #24391043 - 06/09/17 12:38 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I changed brands of Douglas fir this winter and when I did I noticed horrible yields. The brand had 100% wood content but you could smell the softwood.


So I stopped with softwood this winter. After talking to some Thai farmers I have decided to give fermenting a try before using softwood.

Not even one week into fermentation I noticed oils collecting at the top of my drum and a notable color difference than compared to original sawdust.



On the left is the original.

The farmer said I could also do it without a soak. Takes two weeks. Sugar must be added to the sawdust. Water content if done without a barrel must be maintained at 80%.


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OfflineMorePies
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24391104 - 06/09/17 01:00 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

It sounds like your trip was great in a lot of ways. Thank you sharing some of it with the community.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: MorePies]
    #24391576 - 06/09/17 04:03 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)



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Offlineworowa
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24391590 - 06/09/17 04:11 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Try adding some hydrated lime. I use it on hardwood, it seems to liberate lots of volatile oils and tannins, and makes the sawdust easier for mycelium to digest.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: worowa]
    #24391614 - 06/09/17 04:23 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I will be and have added small amounts. Softwood has a low pH. Gypsum is cheaper so I've been using more of that. Hydrated lime is expensive in my opinion. 5.99 for 5lb is kinda a ripoff


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Offlineworowa
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24391649 - 06/09/17 04:39 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Buy a big bag, $12 for 25kg here. Completely different action to gypsum. Paper makers used high pH to treat lignin...


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: worowa]
    #24391655 - 06/09/17 04:42 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

The only bigger bags around are for construction lime.


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OfflineShirak
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24391953 - 06/09/17 06:35 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

vatman said:
I will be and have added small amounts. Softwood has a low pH. Gypsum is cheaper so I've been using more of that. Hydrated lime is expensive in my opinion. 5.99 for 5lb is kinda a ripoff




Gypsum won't raise or lower the pH of whatever you are adding it too.


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OfflineMorePies
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24391959 - 06/09/17 06:37 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

what about something like oxiclean? I know it works for straw "pastuerization"


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: MorePies]
    #24391988 - 06/09/17 06:51 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I do Not want to do pasteurization. Just pH adjustment of the sawdust


Edited by vatman (06/09/17 06:53 PM)


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OfflineShirak
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24392000 - 06/09/17 06:55 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

You could try plain old ground limestone.  Not as strong as hydrated lime but usually cheap and easy to get at any garden center.


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OfflineQuadman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: Shirak]
    #24392027 - 06/09/17 07:07 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I'm no chemist but I believe gypsum will not neutralize acidity. It contains sulfur ( acid) and calcium (alkaline) .

Sorry ,Shirak already pointed this out.


--------------------


Edited by Quadman (06/09/17 07:19 PM)


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OfflineMorePies
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24392285 - 06/09/17 08:58 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

vatman said:
I do Not want to do pasteurization. Just pH adjustment of the sawdust




I was thinking for resin removal as well.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: MorePies]
    #24392354 - 06/09/17 09:25 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Oxyclean rapidly turns into hydrogen peroxide. Would kill microbes. Maybe if you wanted to increase fermentation time


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Offlinedrake89
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24392544 - 06/09/17 10:48 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

do you use wood pellets?  i know a few people growing good yields of multiple species off doug fir pellets.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: drake89]
    #24392568 - 06/09/17 11:00 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Mine have oils. Had poor yields after I switched Douglas fir. This application can be applied to fresh pine.


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OfflineTravelAgency
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24394061 - 06/10/17 02:37 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

:takingnotes:


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24394680 - 06/10/17 06:45 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Calcium carbonate got the pH from 4 to 7.

Calcium carbonate has a pH of 9


Edited by vatman (06/10/17 06:45 PM)


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24399328 - 06/12/17 11:47 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)


Three days in you can all ready see oils starting to lift. Recommended time is two weeks


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OfflineMorePies
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24399333 - 06/12/17 11:50 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

That's awesome. In old be concerned about increased microbial load after soaking like how people are concerned with soaking grain. What are you thoughts there?


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: MorePies]
    #24399408 - 06/12/17 12:22 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

You want to increase microbes. This is the same as cold soaking straw for two weeks. Sawdust does not really support microbes so you must add sugar. Once sugar is depleted microbes would be depleted. I added a small amount of bakers yeast so I won't get that raw sewage smell. My last batch smelt of strong alcohol. Letting the last batch dry out so I can mix in wheat bran.


So it is just simple sugar and sawdust. Mixing in wheat bran I'd say is a no go. This can also be done outside a bucket. You have to maintain water capacity around 80%, and turn every few days. I personally like the soak because oils will lift to the top.

Microbes will die at temp. Endospores are little concern. There is documentation where fermentation was used with 50 % pine and 50% oak. There was consistently improved yields and less chance of tritch. They didn't state if it was steamed after (was skim reading)

Some documentation
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://synapse.koreamed.org/Synapse/Data/PDFData/0184MB/mb-31-46.pdf&ved=0ahUKEwjfnffP-LjUAhWH0YMKHT0rAA0QFggoMAI&usg=AFQjCNG3SwuCT7e4MeCnfvf2LJcfEbP8Hw

"The fermented sawdust material was
bottled in the 1,000 ml polypropylene bag, and sterilized
at 121o
C for 90 min under 15 lb steam pressure. 12 hours
after sterilization, Pleurotus ostreatus (ASI 2504) was
inoculated in the clean bench (Dasol DS-70D, Korea).
And then the spawn bottles were incubated at 25o
C for 20
days in the incubating room."

Mold was also inoculated and was hindered greatly...... 30 days. I assume they just added sugar. As you can see the oysters have much thicker growth in fermented sawdust. 


Edited by vatman (06/12/17 01:26 PM)


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OfflineMorePies
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24400351 - 06/12/17 06:28 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Thank you vat, I look forward to reading that.


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Offlineleschampignons
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24400451 - 06/12/17 07:09 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

This is a good idea. I experimented a bit with doug fir but I think the resins/antifungals naturally in the wood impeded the growth of the cultures. A pre fermentation might make them more palatable to the fungi.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: leschampignons]
    #24400562 - 06/12/17 07:54 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

I am surprised that I am seeing oil lifting from 6 month old pine.

I noticed some on my dfir from pellets. I think this had more oils than my old dfir pellets that performed well. Too many variables to say for sure. I am surprised of the color difference of the sawdust though while dry.


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OfflineTravelAgency
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24401885 - 06/13/17 09:31 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Very interesting stuff vat :popcorn:


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24402238 - 06/13/17 12:01 PM (6 years, 7 months ago)

Unfortunately right now I will not continue experiments on softwood. I've found a free source of hardwood that is easy for me to get. I will keep fermenting hardwood in piles for my oysters.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24423580 - 06/21/17 11:19 AM (6 years, 7 months ago)



I was taking out bark floating to the top, taking off a lot of top water. Still after everything has settled down it is covered in a layer of oil.


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Invisibleellomello
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24662421 - 09/26/17 07:24 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

thanks man! i'll eventually try this out on pine sawdust..
i imagine alcohol made from the sugar helps remove even more oils..
and maybe endospores bloom and get out-competed by the easily sterilized microbes.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: ellomello]
    #24664895 - 09/27/17 05:08 PM (6 years, 4 months ago)

Yes keep it up vatman, finding cheap and easy ways to grow is very cool in my book.


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Invisiblevatman
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: Ferather]
    #24665822 - 09/27/17 10:56 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

A less effective method of fermenting the sawdust but can be easier to manage large batches would be putting the sawdust into a pile mix it with sugar and mix water in. Let it ferment for 2-4weeks. Turn the pile weekly and rinse with water weekly.

@Ferather
It will be 1-4 years before I start contributing like I use to towards mushrooms. Even than I might not try to go large scale anymore.


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: vatman]
    #24667032 - 09/28/17 01:17 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I see, bummer!


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Invisiblecircles

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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: Ferather]
    #24718266 - 10/17/17 09:56 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

Hi. I like to try this out and use yeast as well, I couldn't
find any information on how much sugar needs be added though.

How much do you put in a barrel?


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OfflineTravelAgency
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: circles]
    #24718411 - 10/17/17 11:16 PM (6 years, 3 months ago)

I'm actually going to do a fermented pine Pellet run soon. Like seeing you pop up now and then Vat! :wave:


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OfflineFerather
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Re: Softwood fermentation [Re: TravelAgency]
    #24718710 - 10/18/17 05:57 AM (6 years, 3 months ago)

You could also try seaweed bacteria, which survives pasteurization, see here.
It will produce solubles from decay, and produces other nutrients too.

You can spawn strait after assembly (if enriched).


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