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Space Monkey
Registered: 10/09/12
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LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview)
#24347540 - 05/24/17 10:12 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I am not posting this for a debate [edit: this resolution went out the window :P]. I believe LSD purity affects the psychoactive effect of the drug.
This man, Nicholas Sand, the creator of orange sunshine LSD, personal disciple of Owsley Stanley and partner with Tim Scully, and underground chemist for decades (who just recently died), states the same, AND, he states the exact same reason for believing this that I myself came to conclude must be the reason for this phenomenon.
The impurities left over from LSD synthesis (such as iso-LSD) are not active on their own (this has been proven). However, neither are many compounds in ayahuasca or mescaline cacti or psilocybin mushrooms ... and yet, it seems that in combination with mescaline or psilocybin or DMT+Harmala, these other chemicals have an effect on the experience. I believe LSD is no different.
If you don't agree, well, I don't really care, I trust this man's authority over your's. Plus, it accords with my own experience. Epistemologically, I would be stupid not to believe an authority on the subject plus my own experience. So, you will not change my opinion. Period. Feel free to post for other people's benefit, but don't even bother addressing a response to me. I've probably already heard your point before anyway.
Owsley Stanley and Tim Scully, as you will see, were on the exact same page as Nick Sand.
Sand talks about it from 18:44 - 20:09.
Edited by Space Monkey (05/26/17 07:42 AM)
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LincolnCityTripper
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey] 1
#24348079 - 05/25/17 04:51 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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he even said him self it depends on set and setting. Good luck avoiding an argument on this topic is my friend no matter how you look at it. The mind is a powerful thing.
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Sabnock
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: LincolnCityTripper]
#24348254 - 05/25/17 07:06 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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What do people think about LSD's vasoconstriction? Is it because of impurity or is it a natural consequence of LSD? For me, i wouldn't mind further exploring LSD but i get pretty bad vasoconstriction from it as do others, and some have found ways of counteracting the vasoconstriction so hopefully in time i'll be able to further explore LSD if i can counteract the vasoconstriction, or if i can come across some "pure and clean" LSD if it doesn't cause vasoconstriction.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Sabnock]
#24348733 - 05/25/17 11:13 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Sabnock said: What do people think about LSD's vasoconstriction? Is it because of impurity or is it a natural consequence of LSD? For me, i wouldn't mind further exploring LSD but i get pretty bad vasoconstriction from it as do others, and some have found ways of counteracting the vasoconstriction so hopefully in time i'll be able to further explore LSD if i can counteract the vasoconstriction, or if i can come across some "pure and clean" LSD if it doesn't cause vasoconstriction.
The cleanest LSD I've ever gotten gave me vasoconstriction.
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Sabnock
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
#24349003 - 05/25/17 01:16 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yeah from my understanding the Lysergimides can still be vasconstrictive even if it's pure, but i've had a few people tell me that's bs and that really pure LSD is very smooth and no vasoconstriction at all. If i could just find a way around the vasoconstriction, i could and would want to take LSD more.
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Sabnock]
#24349201 - 05/25/17 02:50 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sabnock said: Yeah from my understanding the Lysergimides can still be vasconstrictive even if it's pure, but i've had a few people tell me that's bs and that really pure LSD is very smooth and no vasoconstriction at all. If i could just find a way around the vasoconstriction, i could and would want to take LSD more.
It is very smooth and usually feels natural and clean but vasoconstriction can still happen depending on what's happening with the set and setting. Maybe it's because I smoked a lot of weed too.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: LincolnCityTripper]
#24349357 - 05/25/17 03:43 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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LincolnCityTripper said: he even said him self it depends on set and setting. Good luck avoiding an argument on this topic is my friend no matter how you look at it. The mind is a powerful thing.
No, he said that set and setting were an influence, *in addition* to the purity of the compound.
I'm still not debating it. This remark was not a debating comment. I am merely pointing out to you what he actually said - whether you agree with him or not, I don't care. I trust this guy and Tim Scully and Owsley Stanley and my personal experience more than you.
Believe what you want to. I have already stated why I believe the things I do. I am merely posting an authority greater than my subjective experience, which is in accordance with my subjective experience. People may come to their own conclusions. You do not believe it. Cool, good for you. I'm not trying to talk you into anything. I posted this for the benefit of the general public who want to do their own research.
Thank-you for contributing. But, your comment is only for the benefit of others, it made zero impact on me ... as I stated it would.
Edited by Space Monkey (05/25/17 03:55 PM)
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Sabnock]
#24349441 - 05/25/17 04:03 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sabnock said: What do people think about LSD's vasoconstriction? Is it because of impurity or is it a natural consequence of LSD? For me, i wouldn't mind further exploring LSD but i get pretty bad vasoconstriction from it as do others, and some have found ways of counteracting the vasoconstriction so hopefully in time i'll be able to further explore LSD if i can counteract the vasoconstriction, or if i can come across some "pure and clean" LSD if it doesn't cause vasoconstriction.
Personally, I don't know if LSD has caused "the constriction of blood vessels, which increases blood pressure" in me (what Google defines vasoconstriction as).
The feeling I personally get when I take LSD that I feel was not very clean, is as though my head was deep fried in dirty electricity. Also, a lot of jaw and muscle clenching. Even cleaner acid always causes a little of this for me. I only ever had one batch that didn't (300 ug orange sunshine tabs ... holy with an emphasis on the "holy" fuck!).
To be clear: that is my personal, subjective experience. It ain't science. But, these three legendary LSD chemists seem to agree that the flowing "smoothness" of the experience is taken away when it is not pure, though you may still get riggidy-riggidy-wreeecked on it. And, that's still not science. It is simply the subjective experience of three men who probably had more experience with LSD than any other humans in history.
I dunno what there is to be done about vasoconstriction. All I can say, is cleaner acid is much more physically comfortable for me. I don't even know if the symptoms I experience are vasoconstriction. I dunno. Is muscle clenching a sign of vasoconstriction?
Edited by Space Monkey (05/25/17 04:13 PM)
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Sabnock
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24349468 - 05/25/17 04:13 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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For me, LSD's vasoconstriction makes my body feel sluggish, backed up, my blood vessels are tightened, just doesn't feel right, i usually have to take a nice hot shower on LSD in order to feel better. With Aya using Peganum Harmala and Mimosa Hostilis/Acacia Confusa, it feels really natural to the body, and my body feels wonderful (after the nausea/vomiting that is), and instead of vasoconstriction it causes vasodilation so i never feel physically uncomfortable aside from the stomach stuff and some of the DMT's bodily sensations which i think is related to the Adrenaline. I feel like LSD would be a lot better for me personally if it didn't have the vasoconstriction, and i've mixed it with the Rue a few times and it did feel a lot better on the body due to the vasodilation. Another thing is the speediness/stimulation LSD causes, which can last up to about hour 14 for me so it makes it a bit difficult to get to sleep. Psilohuasca (using Shrooms with Rue/Harmalas/Caapi) can give you a 9 to 12+ hour experience since the Harmalas potentiate the Psilocin and lengthen it's duration, so i'd much prefer that over LSD's 12 to 14 hour duration, since Psilohuasca doesn't cause the vasoconstriction and seems to unfold much like an LSD experience does for me.
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openmind
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Sabnock]
#24349542 - 05/25/17 04:42 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sabnock said: What do people think about LSD's vasoconstriction? Is it because of impurity or is it a natural consequence of LSD?....
I find the vasoconstriction and tension from L is just a part of the potential body load that this drug has .
I say potentially because I don't always get a body load from LSD....Taking doses from the same sheet of L will produce a body load for me sometimes, and other times taking doses from that same sheet of L won't produce even the slightest hint of body load for me. The same goes for all my friends as well.
A few years ago my friends and I were working with the same sheet of LSD over the course of almost a full year....They were some good solid doses, said to be 100mcg . I would feel the first signs of lifting of baseline within 1 to 3 minutes after the tab was under my tongue...Visuals and tripping by 45 to 60 minutes after dosing.
So....My friends and I had lots of trips that year, all the tabs of acid we ate were the same dosage of the same crystal from the same sheet. I personally had some trips with that stuff where there was the typical vasoconstriction and body load present in my lower back/neck/legs, just some general load and tension through out the body....But I also had lots of trips with that same stuff where there was absolutely zero body load, no constriction and no tension what so ever, my body felt like air, like bliss in the wind.
So from personal experience...having the same LSD from the same sheet produce body load sometimes and zero body load other times, I feel there's lots of other variables at play contributing to the body load rather than it simply coming down to "clean lsd" or "dirty lsd".
With all that said...when I do have a trip with L that produces no body load, I can totally understand why some folks are led to believe that it comes down to some L being "clear/pure" and other L having impurities causing the body load....Because a trip with L that has no load on the body is so light/clean/clear feeling....no tension, just bliss.
I ate some L last weekend at a festival...I didn't experience any body load at all the entire weekend (though I was zinging/vibrating from dancing for many hours on end all weekend, I feel that my body was likely so high on endorphins and what not that that no pain was present).
-OM
.
--------------------
Edited by openmind (05/25/17 04:52 PM)
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LincolnCityTripper
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24349896 - 05/25/17 07:04 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said:
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LincolnCityTripper said: he even said him self it depends on set and setting. Good luck avoiding an argument on this topic is my friend no matter how you look at it. The mind is a powerful thing.
No, he said that set and setting were an influence, *in addition* to the purity of the compound.
I'm still not debating it. This remark was not a debating comment. I am merely pointing out to you what he actually said - whether you agree with him or not, I don't care. I trust this guy and Tim Scully and Owsley Stanley and my personal experience more than you.
Believe what you want to. I have already stated why I believe the things I do. I am merely posting an authority greater than my subjective experience, which is in accordance with my subjective experience. People may come to their own conclusions. You do not believe it. Cool, good for you. I'm not trying to talk you into anything. I posted this for the benefit of the general public who want to do their own research.
Thank-you for contributing. But, your comment is only for the benefit of others, it made zero impact on me ... as I stated it would.
Me personally im gonna trust the creator of LSD and not a couple chemists that know how to make it. Its all well documented so you are debating whether you think so or not. You need to do some reading bro its all documented. Darkstar can hook you up with a link i dont have it at the moment. But again LSD is LSD no matter what you think. Do some research and you will see that even with the purest LSD there is still side effects.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Sabnock]
#24350211 - 05/25/17 09:33 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Sabnock said:i've mixed it with the Rue a few times and it did feel a lot better on the body due to the vasodilation.
Wow, really? I'll have to try that! PSA though, if you take something you thought was LSD, and it turns out to be an NBOME or DOx compound or some other research chemical passed off as acid, syrian rue may be deadly in combination with it. Always make sure the thing you are taking genuinely is LSD if you're taking rue as well! (You probably already know this, just posting for the benefit of people browsing the interwebz).
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: LincolnCityTripper]
#24350259 - 05/25/17 09:51 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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LincolnCityTripper said: Me personally im gonna trust the creator of LSD and not a couple chemists that know how to make it.
Why? Albert Hoffman took LSD like, 10 or 20 times in his entire life. I can't remember which. It definitely wasn't over 20, Hoffman really wasn't that experienced with his own creation.
Alright fine, I give up, I'll debate :P
I accept that LSD can become more or less "clean" feeling based on your mental state. In fact, I actively will meditate on love during LSD trips in order to induce these clarified states! Because, even though I engage in these practices, and can (to a degree) elevate myself to heightened states of clarity - I still personally find I can discern what quality the chemical I am working with is at! When the chemical is of better quality, these meditative states are much easier to induce.
My belief is that the purity of the product is a further factor, rather than the only factor.
As far as I know, there are no real studies on this. I would be fascinated to see them, and I believe that they could be performed, just by measuring people's vital signs. However, it would be difficult to do, you would actually need a pretty large study to objectively determine this.
This is because, as people are saying, set and setting is a factor. Meditation will change your trip, I highly encourage it! (Sober practice will increase your skill at it). Because of this confounding factor, a huge amount of medical study would be necessary across vast amounts of people with vast amounts of information recorded, in order to account for the effect of set and setting on people's experiences.
As the first person who responded said, Sand himself accepts set and setting as factors in the subjective experience! But, he is also saying that in his experience, and the experience of others he met, the purity of the chemical was a further factor. Since we have no studies of the kind I am talking about, the best I can go on is: my own experience, and the purported experiences of those who have had the best access to the drug and used it the most ... these chemists.
Set, setting, and chemical composition!
Does anybody here mean to tell me that they believe pure DMT+Harmala, or pure psilocin, or pure mescaline, or pure ibogaine, or pure THC, are the same as ayahuasca, or mushrooms, or cacti, or iboga, or cannabis?
Let's take cannabis as the most obvious example. As far as we know, THC is the only psychoactive ingredient in cannabis. That's not to say the other chemicals don't have effects, but they do not get you high. Tested alone, they would be found to have pharmacological effects on us, to be sure, but they wouldn't get you "high". But they DO effect the high that THC produces!
The same goes for every other chemical I listed. Does anyone contest this? That chemicals in plants which don't get you high on their own, affect the subjective experience of other chemicals in plants that do in fact get you high?
We'll start the debate there, that is the first premise I am laying out. If you contest this, then speak up. If you agree with me...well, we shall move forward in our debate from there
Edited by Space Monkey (05/25/17 09:55 PM)
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Mordecount
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24350326 - 05/25/17 10:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree with openmind, every trip is different even from the same sheet, it's just the beauty, nature and variation of the psychedelic experience, just like sometimes with P subaeruginosa, I have heavy, uncomfortable body load, other times it's similar to MDMA, and very euphoric. Tripping is such a unique experience, and there's no scientific evidence to back up the claims of purity = "Cleaner trip". Purity should effect potency and nothing more, perhaps the knowledge of it being pure or impure is enough to ultimately colour the experience?
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Sabnock
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24350387 - 05/25/17 10:59 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said:
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Sabnock said:i've mixed it with the Rue a few times and it did feel a lot better on the body due to the vasodilation.
Wow, really? I'll have to try that! PSA though, if you take something you thought was LSD, and it turns out to be an NBOME or DOx compound or some other research chemical passed off as acid, syrian rue may be deadly in combination with it. Always make sure the thing you are taking genuinely is LSD if you're taking rue as well! (You probably already know this, just posting for the benefit of people browsing the interwebz).
Yup, always test your stuff before mixing it with Harmalas.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Mordecount]
#24350680 - 05/26/17 04:06 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Mordecount said: I agree with openmind, every trip is different even from the same sheet, it's just the beauty, nature and variation of the psychedelic experience, just like sometimes with P subaeruginosa, I have heavy, uncomfortable body load, other times it's similar to MDMA, and very euphoric. Tripping is such a unique experience, and there's no scientific evidence to back up the claims of purity = "Cleaner trip". Purity should effect potency and nothing more, perhaps the knowledge of it being pure or impure is enough to ultimately colour the experience?
So, you believe plant psychedelics have the exact same effects as taking the pure isolated ingredients extracted from them?
In the cases of cannabis, cacti, iboga, and ayahuasca I would say the vast majority of people disagree with that...
And indigenous communities definitely see different effects from different species of shrooms. Maria Sabina the Mazatec mushroom curandera for example, would never eat Cubensis. Kat McKenna (Terence McKenna's ex-wife) stated the same in an interview. Indigenous communities recognize a difference between mushroom species.
Edited by Space Monkey (05/26/17 04:22 AM)
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howsyournaggerdoin
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24350701 - 05/26/17 04:34 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Until somebody finds an impurity thats active at doses low enough to fit on a blotter theres nothing to argue about here.
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Mordecount
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24350772 - 05/26/17 05:37 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said:
Quote:
Mordecount said: I agree with openmind, every trip is different even from the same sheet, it's just the beauty, nature and variation of the psychedelic experience, just like sometimes with P subaeruginosa, I have heavy, uncomfortable body load, other times it's similar to MDMA, and very euphoric. Tripping is such a unique experience, and there's no scientific evidence to back up the claims of purity = "Cleaner trip". Purity should effect potency and nothing more, perhaps the knowledge of it being pure or impure is enough to ultimately colour the experience?
So, you believe plant psychedelics have the exact same effects as taking the pure isolated ingredients extracted from them?
In the cases of cannabis, cacti, iboga, and ayahuasca I would say the vast majority of people disagree with that...
And indigenous communities definitely see different effects from different species of shrooms. Maria Sabina the Mazatec mushroom curandera for example, would never eat Cubensis. Kat McKenna (Terence McKenna's ex-wife) stated the same in an interview. Indigenous communities recognize a difference between mushroom species.
No, I was just making a point of how every trip is different, it's the nature of the psychedelic experience, with powdered consistent mushrooms I'd have different kinds of body loads, effects etc. everytime, despite being the same mushrooms. Same with different trips from the same sheet. Pure LSD isn't going to give you a clean trip free of body load and other effects, just like the intent and conciousness of the person that laid it isn't going to influence your trip.
Psychedelics in general have a large array of potential subjective effects, and more often than not, they're not going to manifest at the same time or be consistent trip to trip. As openmind said, though, you can see how people who have a clean trip free of bodyload might think it's because it was pure product.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Mordecount]
#24350919 - 05/26/17 07:37 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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You still haven't answered my question.
Do you believe that a plant psychedelic experience will be the same as an experience from a pure, extracted compound? Do you believe for example, that cannabis causes the same effects as pure THC? Or cacti the same trip as pure mescaline? Or iboga the same trip as pure ibogaine? Or ayahuasca the same trip as pure DMT+harmala? Or mushrooms the same trip as pure psilocin?
Or do you think it makes no difference, that ALL the differences are simply set+setting?
Let's start with people's answers on THIS question before we move to LSD.
Edited by Space Monkey (05/26/17 07:39 AM)
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badchad
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: LincolnCityTripper]
#24351207 - 05/26/17 09:54 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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LincolnCityTripper said: he even said him self it depends on set and setting. Good luck avoiding an argument on this topic is my friend no matter how you look at it. The mind is a powerful thing.
Set and setting are huge. Studies have shown, for example, that individuals can mistake DXM for psilocybin under double blind conditions. However, if you simply tell study subjects they may get one or the other, they can easily tell the difference. So we have actual, peer-reviewed studies showing the enormous influence of setting and setting and well, youtube to support the effects of impurities.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Eclipse3130
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24351331 - 05/26/17 10:57 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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If you want less side effects of LSD scope out ALD52. I don't even consume LSD anymore because of its harsh array of side effects and constriction.
Has already been said before
Purity doesn't effect anything but potenCy AND reflective quality. A pure crystal will be able to hold and radiate intent and energy better than one that is not. That's why Nick Sand was so astout to claiming his Orange Sunshine crystal as very pure and blessed. Because with optimal purity and reflective quality, his energy and intentions were absorbed and radiated in every experience
Crystals 101
Set and Setting
100 micrograms of 99% pure LSD is the exact same as taking 200 micrograms of 50% pure LSD.
LSD is LSD THC is THC
There's no such thing as impurity that will change the effects of the drug, of course unless it's psychoactive. LSD impurities are not
It's been studied and tested many times, there is no impurity that causes any psychological effect rather than the placebo.
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (05/26/17 11:07 AM)
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Eclipse3130]
#24351379 - 05/26/17 11:18 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Eclipse3130 said: THC is THC
I do not believe that is the case. It seems obvious to me that different strains of cannabis have different effects, different inflections on THC's activity. Any marijuana dispensary or doctor who knows anything about medical marijuana will tell you that. But, as far as I know, none of those other cannabinoids will get you high on their own in the way THC will, even though they may have other pharmacological activity. But, they do seem to have an influence on the psychoactive effect of THC.
Like when I gave my buddy a hit of extract and he had to smoke a bowl of herb to make it feel more "fuzzy headed" and "less cerebral" (his words).
I'm regretting debating. That other cannabinoids alter the psychoactive effects of THC is not even a controversial statement.
Thanks for the tip about the ALD-52 though!
Edited by Space Monkey (05/26/17 11:24 AM)
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Eclipse3130
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24351405 - 05/26/17 11:35 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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You're jumping the gun my friend.
THC isolated is THC, if you have a THC extract it's usually only or dominantly THC, with the exception of terpenes.
What you're speaking of is the flowers of Cannabis which contain well over 100 unique individual cannabinoids which have a drastic effect and make each strain unique and individual.
THC is THC... how can it not be?
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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badchad
Mad Scientist
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24351407 - 05/26/17 11:36 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Space Monkey said: But, they do seem to have an influence on the psychoactive effect of THC.
While this may be true, it's not the case for all compounds and plants.
To answer your previous question: In some cases, a purified extract will be identical to a whole plant based compound, in others, the other active constituents of the plant will produce pharmacological interactions. It also depends on the response you're examining.
For an extremely potent compound like LSD, any "impurities" are likely to be present in such small amounts that they have no effect on the experience, especially given the large role of non-pharmaocological factors (e.g., set and setting).
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24351428 - 05/26/17 11:47 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Space Monkey said: I do not believe that is the case. It seems obvious to me that different strains of cannabis have different effects, different inflections on THC's activity. Any marijuana dispensary or doctor who knows anything about medical marijuana will tell you that. But, as far as I know, none of those other cannabinoids will get you high on their own in the way THC will, even though they may have other pharmacological activity. But, they do seem to have an influence on the psychoactive effect of THC.
Like when I gave my buddy a hit of extract and he had to smoke a bowl of herb to make it feel more "fuzzy headed" and "less cerebral" (his words).
I'm regretting debating. That other cannabinoids alter the psychoactive effects of THC is not even a controversial statement.
Thanks for the tip about the ALD-52 though!
There is definitely a substantial difference between pure/concentrated THC and cannabis flower. And yes obviously the terpenes and other cannabinoids synergize with the THC intoxication.
Quote:
badchad said: In some cases, a purified extract will be identical to a whole plant based compound
How?
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badchad
Mad Scientist
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
#24351463 - 05/26/17 12:08 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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AuroraBorealis88 said:
Quote:
badchad said: In some cases, a purified extract will be identical to a whole plant based compound
How?
Let me clarify: in some cases, the effects will be identical because the additional extracted compounds are completely inactive. In a molecular level, they may be different, but the difference doesn't matter.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24351479 - 05/26/17 12:15 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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badchad said:
Quote:
Space Monkey said: But, they do seem to have an influence on the psychoactive effect of THC.
While this may be true, it's not the case for all compounds and plants.
To answer your previous question: In some cases, a purified extract will be identical to a whole plant based compound, in others, the other active constituents of the plant will produce pharmacological interactions. It also depends on the response you're examining.
For an extremely potent compound like LSD, any "impurities" are likely to be present in such small amounts that they have no effect on the experience, especially given the large role of non-pharmaocological factors (e.g., set and setting).
Okay, now we're onto engaging fruitfully. Even genuine disagreement is fruitful, rather than miscommunication, which is not.
I believe that these impurities (such as iso-LSD) have an effect on LSD, even though on their own, they exhibit no psychoactive activity. Similarly, CBD affects THC's psychoactive high, though CBD alone does not get you high.
It is true, iso-LSD has no effect on it's own, and yes, it is present in very small quantities ... but perhaps, like LSD, it has an effect at very small quantities? Even if that effect only manifests as an effect on LSD's own activity?
I don't really buy the idea that because it is in small quantities, it has no influence.
Finally: all of the plant compounds I mentioned except perhaps mushrooms (I listed: cannabis, cacti, iboga, and ayahuasca) are generally agreed to have different effects than pure isolated compounds. However, as I've already noted, indigenous communities believe different mushrooms species have different effects.
There's not a lot of other major psychedelics to be found in nature. What this says to me is that virtually all of the natural psychedelics produce different effects when taken in plant form as opposed to pure chemical form.
I don't think it is such an irrational leap to include LSD in this. The LSD chemists definitely agree.
This is all speculation. You are speculating, I am speculating. But I definitely don't think my speculation is stupid. Nor do I think your's is. But all of you! Seem to be behaving as though your position is an obvious truth, and I'm saying, your guess is as good as mine! None of us has anything more than educated guess work. As far as speculative hypothesis goes, all I can say is: the LSD chemists who are the largest case studies who have lived (a case study isn't worth much), agree with me.
The shred of vague evidence which proves almost nothing ... is on my side. I'm not saying I know! But it seems strange you all act as though you do.
Edited by Space Monkey (05/26/17 12:18 PM)
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24351490 - 05/26/17 12:19 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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badchad said: the effects will be identical because the additional extracted compounds are completely inactive.
^ This is the part I don't get though.
What additional compounds exactly? And why are they inactive? And if they are inactive wouldn't there clearly be a difference between that and the whole plant?
edit: Are you saying the wide array of chemicals in cannabis flower don't influence the THC state at all? Because they definitely do.
Edited by AuroraBorealis88 (05/26/17 12:23 PM)
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Eclipse3130]
#24351496 - 05/26/17 12:21 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Eclipse3130 said: You're jumping the gun my friend.
THC isolated is THC, if you have a THC extract it's usually only or dominantly THC, with the exception of terpenes.
What you're speaking of is the flowers of Cannabis which contain well over 100 unique individual cannabinoids which have a drastic effect and make each strain unique and individual.
THC is THC... how can it not be?
All I'm saying is that if you mix some other cannabinoids in with THC, which would not yield a psychoactive high if taken on their own - suddenly, that THC's effects are going to be packaged differently. Their psycho-activity depends on THC. They modulate the high from THC, though they produce no high when taken on their own.
So, to say they are inactive, is not accurate. They are active - in the presence of THC, but not otherwise.
That's not to say they don't do things! CBD helps stop seizures, for example. It's just to say, they don't cause any sort of a "high" on their own - but they do modulate the high from THC.
Savvy?
Edited by Space Monkey (05/26/17 12:27 PM)
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badchad
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
#24351527 - 05/26/17 12:30 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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AuroraBorealis88 said:
What additional compounds exactly? And why are they inactive? And if they are inactive wouldn't there clearly be a difference between that and the whole plant?
The "additional compounds" depends on the plant. Some may be inactive because they serve a purpose in the plant that has no physiological effect in humans. For the sake of argument, let's assume we're talking about a subjective/psychoactive effect. If I eat some grass clippings from my front lawn, I won't experience any effect. Likewise, if I extract a compound from my grass clippings, I still won't get any affect.
Maybe a better example is tobacco. Most consider nicotine to be the active "ingredient." However there are all sorts of additional alkaloids. For the most part though, you need really, super high doses of these alkaloids to get an effect. Because of this, tobacco "extracts" don't differ (functionally) from pure nicotine even though the molecular composition may be different.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24351565 - 05/26/17 12:48 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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badchad said: Maybe a better example is tobacco. Most consider nicotine to be the active "ingredient." However there are all sorts of additional alkaloids. For the most part though, you need really, super high doses of these alkaloids to get an effect.
Super high doses if you're taking them by themselves maybe because on their own there's almost no point. What gives them life and real notable effects IS that main active compound. Without the main active compound the effects of the other chemicals are pretty much muted; nonexistent. They need a "high" to synergize to, they do not create the high themselves that's what the main ingredient does.
All these chemicals in cannabis need THC in order to impose their effects. They are not active on their own they are only "active" when THC is there too. In other words these other chemicals ONLY have psychoactive effects while you're in the THC state they do not have psychoactive results all the time or when sober. The THC intoxication lays the groundwork.
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badchad
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
#24351617 - 05/26/17 01:06 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said:
Super high doses if you're taking them by themselves maybe because on their own there's almost no point. What gives them life and real notable effects IS that main active compound. Without the main active compound the effects of the other chemicals are pretty much muted; nonexistent. They need a "high" to synergize to, they do not create the high themselves that's what the main ingredient does.
Not always. For example, I attended a research conference where people reacted the same to purified nicotine and tobacco "Extract."
Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said: All these chemicals in cannabis need THC in order to impose their effects. They are not active on their own they are only "active" when THC is there too. In other words these other chemicals ONLY have psychoactive effects while you're in the THC state they do not have psychoactive results all the time or when sober. The THC intoxication lays the groundwork.
Again, not always and it depends on the response you're examining. Purified CBD can assist in treating seizures independently of THC.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24351642 - 05/26/17 01:18 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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badchad said: Not always. For example, I attended a research conference where people reacted the same to purified nicotine and tobacco "Extract."
Eh I'll give you that one because I really don't know very much about tobacco or its "extracts" and plus nicotine isn't even that psychoactive but I know for a fact what I said about cannabis is true.
Quote:
Again, not always and it depends on the response you're examining. Purified CBD can assist in treating seizures independently of THC.
That doesn't even refute my argument by 1%. I'm not saying there's NO effect at all
I'm speaking generally and in the sense of what is notable, I was speaking for notable mental effects. You ignore my main argument just to emphasize what everyone already knows smh.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88] 1
#24351925 - 05/26/17 03:24 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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AuroraBorealis88 said: That doesn't even refute my argument by 1%. I'm not saying there's NO effect at all
I'm speaking generally and in the sense of what is notable, I was speaking for notable mental effects. You ignore my main argument just to emphasize what everyone already knows smh.
Yup. I said the same thing already. The other cannabinoids still have pharmacological activity (like anti-seizure properties) - they just don't get you high on their own. But, in combination with THC, they actively transform the high from THC. It is still definitely THC, but it is experienced differently. The high has synergized with cannabinoids whose effects would not otherwise be apparent to the user.
What this demonstrates, is that other molecules can influence your high, which will not get you high on their own.
If one supposed something like iso-LSD to have a similar nature, I would not be surprised if it acted on LSD in a similar way.
Yes, the iso-LSD would be in tiny amounts ... but perhaps it's activity is only "influential". Like CBD, it will not produce a high on it's own (at any dose) ... but perhaps it is an LSD-level strength "influencer". I mean, iso-LSD is pretty structurally similar to LSD ... perhaps it is also active in the ug range, but only in synergy with LSD, just as cannabinoids are only active in synergistic conjunction with THC! This is not even to say that they have a great deal of activity, their activity is merely "influential" on a drug with primary activity, i.e. THC or LSD! But by themselves, even at high doses, they will never get you high!
That, in a nutshell, is the theory which Nick Sand laid out in the video. He, Tim Scully, Owsley Stanley, and myself subscribe to it. May some scientists someday receive funding to figure it out conclusively, in a billion years or so!
My conclusions:
With regards to cannabinoids ... this isn't even a debate, this is well known fact. If you're not getting it ... you're just not understanding.
The only credible challenge to the theory, is the fact that iso-LSD is in very small quantities. However, CBD will never get you high at any dose! But, in conjunction with THC, it transforms your high. Iso-LSD may similarly never get you high at any dose, but, it may have the power to influence the high from LSD, at a similar ug dose range as LSD!
I don't know why ya'll think that's nuts. I'm not saying "this is clearly the case". I'm just saying ... I don't think it's a crazy notion. Three prolific acid chemists who made and used the drug more than all of us put together all believed that the purity affected their experiences ... and it accords with my experience, so, I buy it, personally.
This has been my contribution to the debate ... I did this for the public who were curious ... thank-you all for your opposition to help bring out the arguments.
Edited by Space Monkey (05/26/17 03:59 PM)
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openmind
curious
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24352267 - 05/26/17 06:02 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Space Monkey said:....All I can say, is cleaner acid is much more physically comfortable for me......
....I still personally find I can discern what quality the chemical I am working with is at!....
How do you know the LSD you have is "clean" and "good quality" ?
Do you actually make notes on your trips with certain tabs of L, then send them off to be analyzed? Then once you receive the results do a comparison between the analysis results and your trip notes, and narrow down the body load to certain impurities?
Or are you merely jumping to the conclusion of some LSD being "clean" and "high quality" just because there was little body load present and you were able to slip into meditative states easily during a trip?
Because like I mentioned in my previous post...I was working with the same LSD from the same sheet, same crystal, for about a year. I had lots of lovely experiences with the stuff where there was absolutely zero body load, mind was crystal clear even when I was super high, no tension what so ever, just bliss. Having such experiences would totally lead me to beleive that particular LSD was "special" and very "pure"....But I had an equal amount of experiences with that same sheet/crystal where the typical body load was present (general tension through out the body, neck, legs, back, etc....).
So if the purity of LSD is a major contributor to the body load and general smoothness/blissfulness and clarity of a trip, why did the same LSD crystal produce trips that were at both ends of the spectrum for myself and my friends?
And if highly pure LSD won't produce any body load...why are such things still noted and experienced even with sandoz back in the day? Even in modern day studies through MAPS, some subject still report a negative body load at times (I doubt maps is working with "dirty crystal", in fact Dr. David Nichols, the fella who synthed the LSD that's currently used in the LSD studies going on, said the LSD they're using is the purist/highest quality LSD around at the moment, and the subjects still report body loads).
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Space Monkey said: ....Does anybody here mean to tell me that they believe pure DMT+Harmala, or pure psilocin, or pure mescaline, or pure ibogaine, or pure THC, are the same as ayahuasca, or mushrooms, or cacti, or iboga, or cannabis?
Let's take cannabis as the most obvious example. As far as we know, THC is the only psychoactive ingredient in cannabis. That's not to say the other chemicals don't have effects, but they do not get you high....
Following your analogy.....
THC ---> The broad spectrum of cannabinoids & terepenes
DMT+Harmaline ---> The various other tryptamines in the bark and the other harmala alkloids in the vine.
Psilocin ---> Psilocybin and other traces of tryptamine alkaloids
But how does LSD fit into this analogy considering it's a single chemical and not a broad spectrum of various alkaloids like most plants contain?
Would it just be?...>>>
LSD -> LSD, ISO-LSD, Lumi-LSD ?
I most definitely do notice a pronounced different between strains of cannabis, very much so!....and I do feel there is a difference between isolated DMT taken with a single isolated harmala alkaloid versus drinking the full spectrum of actives in the bark & vine tea......But I can't say I've ever noticed any sort of consistent pronounced differences between different sheets/crystal of LSD. Some trips I have a body load, other trips I don't .
If it were as simple as the quality of the LSD being the sole or major contributor to the body load and the clarity/ease of mind, then that sheet my friends and I were working with for about a year should have consistently produced the same sort of body load or lack of.
-OM
.
--------------------
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openmind
curious
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: openmind]
#24352325 - 05/26/17 06:19 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
....If one supposed something like iso-LSD to have a similar nature, I would not be surprised if it acted on LSD in a similar way.
Yes, the iso-LSD would be in tiny amounts ... but perhaps it's activity is only "influential". Like CBD, it will not produce a high on it's own (at any dose) ... but perhaps it is an LSD-level strength "influencer". I mean, iso-LSD is pretty structurally similar to LSD ... perhaps it is also active in the ug range, but only in synergy with LSD, just as cannabinoids are only active in synergistic conjunction with THC! This is not even to say that they have a great deal of activity, their activity is merely "influential" on a drug with primary activity, i.e. THC or LSD! But by themselves, even at high doses, they will never get you high!
That, in a nutshell, is the theory which Nick Sand laid out in the video. He, Tim Scully, Owsley Stanley, and myself subscribe to it...
I've pondered this a lot over the years and ^^that^^ is totally the same idea that I've had in regards to LSD "quality/purity" potentially having an influence on the body load, clarity, and overall character of a trip....
.....but from personal experience I can't say I've had certain sheets of L consistently produce the same body load or lack of body load .
I've definitely had trips with L that was so gosh darn clear & light, enough to make me want to believe "this LSD is super pure & special" ...I do want to believe lol, and I am still open to the idea, but from my 250 trips or so with L over the past 10 years I can't say I've noticed any sort of proof from direct experience .
I would love for some blind studies to be done on this topic though, and finally settle this "debate" that's been going on for ages now .
-OM
.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: openmind]
#24352396 - 05/26/17 06:50 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I agree that set/setting are influences on subjective experiences of clarity. This of course makes the question tricky, but I believe chemical purity is still a component.
As I've said, meditating on love is a way I am able to actively induce these experiences of subjective clarity.
However, even though I am able to consciously do this, I do still know what I'm working with. A cleaner tab is easier to work with.
I've successfully blindly distinguished California sunshine crystal from needlepoint crystal which was sourced from the Netherlands... I knew it was very good, but it didn't have the same luxurious "transparency" as needlepoint. However, I was able to still move to higher levels of clarity with it, through meditation.
I'm not saying you can't induce clear experiences with less pure chemicals - or that your mind will not do the opposite and actually induce body load. My claim is that the purity of the chemical merely plays a role, and is one of many factors. If it is more pure, it is easier to enter clarity. If it is less, well ... it's more difficult.
Sand says the same elsewhere. In one of his articles on DMT (which are brilliant by the way, check them out!), he notes that mental hangups can induce physical discomfort when smoking DMT. When we're dealing with psychedelics, our minds are able to affect our physical experiences (moreso than usual). But - Sand and these other chemists nonetheless maintained that the purity of the chemical is indeed a factor. If any people in the world's subjective judgment is to be trusted, it is their's. I'd say it is to be trusted even more than your own...mine just happens to accord with their's.
Edited by Space Monkey (05/26/17 07:06 PM)
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endogenous
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24355756 - 05/28/17 05:20 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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"The Pavamana Mantra (pavamāna meaning "being purified, strained", historically a name of Soma), also known as pavamāna abhyāroha (abhyāroha, lit. "ascending", being an Upanishadic technical term for "prayer"[1]) is a Hindu mantra introduced in the Bṛhadāraṇyaka Upaniṣad (1.3.28.)[2] The mantra was originally meant to be recited during the introductory praise of the Soma sacrifice by the patron sponsoring the sacrifice.[3] Text and Translation
The text of the mantra reads:
asato mā sad gamaya, tamaso mā jyotir gamaya, mṛtyor mā amṛtaṃ gamaya
This translates to:
Lead me from falsehood to truth, Lead me from darkness to light, Lead me from death to the immortality"
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pavamana_Mantra
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: endogenous]
#24355882 - 05/28/17 07:24 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Lovely, I will incorporate this prayer in future journeys. Thank-you
Edited by Space Monkey (05/28/17 07:32 AM)
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24357957 - 05/29/17 01:32 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Finally, watch this documentary oriented around Nick Sand and friends
http://sockshare.net/watch/LxRnjoxO-the-sunshine-makers.html
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: openmind]
#24357974 - 05/29/17 01:56 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
openmind said: So....My friends and I had lots of trips that year, all the tabs of acid we ate were the same dosage of the same crystal from the same sheet. I personally had some trips with that stuff where there was the typical vasoconstriction and body load present in my lower back/neck/legs, just some general load and tension through out the body....But I also had lots of trips with that same stuff where there was absolutely zero body load, no constriction and no tension what so ever, my body felt like air, like bliss in the wind.
So from personal experience...having the same LSD from the same sheet produce body load sometimes and zero body load other times, I feel there's lots of other variables at play contributing to the body load rather than it simply coming down to "clean lsd" or "dirty lsd".
This is my experience too. Every batch of acid I've gotten has been good and clean, and from ten doses from the same sheet I've had the experience vary from absolutely zero body load to diarrhea, stomach cramps and major vasoconstriction. I've had good trips that put me in touch with the divine to negative trips where I felt fried and like I was going insane, all from the same fucking sheet. Your general health, diet, mood, other drugs, set and setting all have waaaaaay more influence on the trip than impurities. You're already dosing in micrograms, so if the impurities are even 10% of the total chemicals, that's like 10 mcg of impurities on a "100mcg" trip. That's not going to affect you in any noticeable way. Maybe if you got really, noticeably shitty acid it would be another story, but you'd only know it was really "dirty" acid if the ill effects happened every single time without fail and you took several different trips from the same batch. Otherwise, if you're blaming all body load and bad tripping on impurities, then the only logical explanation would be that every sheet of acid has "dirty doses" and "clean doses." That's just stupid. OP, buy a sheet or a vial of good clean acid next time and take 20 trips from it over a year. You'll see that this is a bunch of baloney. It's been hashed over a million times, you'd fail the Pepsi challenge I guarantee.
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endogenous
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24358013 - 05/29/17 02:36 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said: Lovely, I will incorporate this prayer in future journeys. Thank-you
Also, Book 9 of the RgVeda has a total of 114 Hymns. 113 of them are titled "Soma Pavamana" (meaning the purification of Soma).
"Rigveda is one of the oldest extant texts in any Indo-European language.[13] Philological and linguistic evidence indicate that the Rigveda was composed in the north-western region of the Indian subcontinent, most likely between c. 1500 and 1200 BC,[14][15][16] though a wider approximation of c. 1700–1100 BC has also been given." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rigveda
"The ninth Mandala of the Rigveda, also called the Soma Mandala, has 114 hymns, entirely (although Griffith marks 9.5 as dedicated to the Apris) devoted to Sóma Pávamāna, "Purifying Soma", the sacred potion of the Vedic religion. Similar to Mandala 8, it cannot be dated within the relative chronology of the Rigveda as a whole; dealing with the Soma cult, a practice reaching back into Proto-Indo-Iranian times (late 3rd millennium BC), some of its hymns may contain the very oldest parts of the Rigveda, while other hymns may be rather recent relative to the other books." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandala_9
Edited by endogenous (05/29/17 03:06 AM)
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Space Monkey
Registered: 10/09/12
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
#24358412 - 05/29/17 08:57 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
P.Zappatecorum said: That's just stupid. OP, buy a sheet or a vial of good clean acid next time and take 20 trips from it over a year. You'll see that this is a bunch of baloney. It's been hashed over a million times, you'd fail the Pepsi challenge I guarantee.
So you're pitting your own subjective experience against (not me, who the fuck cares about me) Owsley Stanley, Tim Scully, and Nick Sand? You're suggesting they didn't take high quality LSD enough (20 times a year) to make a good judgment, and if all three of them had done this they would have seen this is a bunch of baloney, and that they were stupid for believing it? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Edited by Space Monkey (05/29/17 09:31 AM)
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endogenous
נפל מגיהינום
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24359248 - 05/29/17 03:13 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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From TIHKAL (Shulgin) about LSD
Repeated recrystallizations from methanol produced a product that became progressively less soluble, and eventually virtually insoluble, as the purity increased. A totally pure salt, when dry and when shaken in the dark, will emit small flashes of white light.
-------------------- The Day of the Lord has come like a thief in the night. -- It is there but no one knows it.
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24360521 - 05/30/17 12:04 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said:
Quote:
P.Zappatecorum said: That's just stupid. OP, buy a sheet or a vial of good clean acid next time and take 20 trips from it over a year. You'll see that this is a bunch of baloney. It's been hashed over a million times, you'd fail the Pepsi challenge I guarantee.
So you're pitting your own subjective experience against (not me, who the fuck cares about me) Owsley Stanley, Tim Scully, and Nick Sand? You're suggesting they didn't take high quality LSD enough (20 times a year) to make a good judgment, and if all three of them had done this they would have seen this is a bunch of baloney, and that they were stupid for believing it? AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
No, but the LSD market has changed considerably since then. When the precursors were easier to source there were far more amateurs trying to synthesize and there was probably some really nasty, dirty shit being passed around. If these guys were talking about very large doses of extremely dirty LSD feeling shitty, I believe them.
You talking about today's acid, with the precursors limited and thus the acid coming from fewer, more skilled chemists, at normal doses, I think the placebo effect is happening. LSD itself can have negative side effects, and the same batch will not always give you the same trip, all psychedelics are highly variable in their effects from trip to trip, even with the same batch and same dosing, for reasons already explained. So if you want to believe you're getting dirty acid sometimes I know I'm not going to change your mind, but I can tell you that even clean LSD is highly variable in its body load, and that's just an indisputable fact. Nice job not arguing dude. You obviously started this thread to get into arguments, this is a stale topic and you're bordering on flaming people. Get over yourself.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
#24361875 - 05/30/17 12:53 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Yes ... I have stated already ... through meditative practice or lack thereof, I feel my mind can induce body load or subjective experiences of clarity. My claim is merely that the chemical is another factor.
And, come on dude. Now you've flipped. "Oh, well, they must have had reallllly dirty stuff back in the day". I don't think so. If you listen to the interview he posted, Sand talked about how Owsley gave him a verbal boot in the ass to up the purity of his product. Maybe he had some grotesquely dirt stuff, but I don't think so. Sand was obsessed with this and believed it so fervently, he actually claims he ended up making acid that was more pure than the legally produced LSD at the time. He, at any rate, truly believed this. You're free to believe otherwise, this is why I was reluctant to debate, I don't care what you believe! Just know, these three chemists disagree with you. When I posted this, I just wanted to leave it at that, but then people started saying things like, "OP, you are clearly an idiot, go buy a sheet and take 20 trips on it, you're such a noob!" I never wanted to prop my own experience up! Someone asked me about my experience, and I certainly noted from the outset that my experience was in accordance with what these chemists said, but my personal experience was never what this post was about! I only wanted to post these chemists' experiences!
In retrospect, perhaps I ought not to have mentioned my own experience at all, simply so this thread could have remained properly oriented around these chemists' own comments. Maybe.
I'm sorry, but it seemed like a silly comment to make. I don't think that I've really flamed anyone, except perhaps you, because the comment seemed so ridiculous. But, if you were only challenging my own experience, and not these chemists', it is obviously not so silly. My apologies. But ... you seem to have altered your stated opinion ever so slightly after my response, so ... maybe not completely sorry. My comment definitely made you think more to respect the chemists' professed beliefs. That's all I've wanted from this post. I did this for the public on the internet who wanted to research the question. That's all.
Edited by Space Monkey (05/30/17 12:59 PM)
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24362059 - 05/30/17 01:48 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Also, taking LSD frequently leads to delusional thinking. When I'm dosing frequently I start getting into some pretty silly shit, seeing connections that aren't there, thinking things are more significant than they are etc. So I don't necessarily trust anything somebody taking huge amounts of psychedelics is saying. That's my problem with McKenna. He was really smart and had a lot of brilliant ideas, but he also spouted a whole lot of bullshit. Obsessing over minutuea and thinking you can sense these subtle differences is pretty classic psychedelic mania, so I'm skeptical. If they're talking about a few micrograms of impurities dramatically affecting the trip then I call bullshit. We can agree to disagree.
I said in my first post that "other chemicals" can influence the trip, I do think that the secondary alkaloids in cactus and mushrooms for instance, do marginally effect the trip, but not consistently and not super dramatically, such that it may be just a vague impression that "on average" ovoids vs. cubensis or peyote vs. bridgesii feel different, but you might not be able to tell which you got in a blind taste test.
LSD impurities may do the same, but they have to be there in sufficient quanitities to be medically relevant. If you're saying there's a noticeable difference between say 10mcg and 30mcg of impurities in a dose, I think you're basically pushing homeopathics. LSD itself is hardly noticeable at levels that low, and these impurities are not thought to be active on their own, so that would have to be an insane amount of synergy to make them pharmalogically significant at that low of a dose.
What levels of impurities are these guys saying are significant? Do they ever mention quantities? I'm just looking at this rationally and from a pharmacological standpoint. It makes no sense to me.
Edited by P.Zappatecorum (05/30/17 01:51 PM)
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
#24362200 - 05/30/17 02:17 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I don't want to straw-man your argument Spacemonkey, so let me get this straight.
Is your contention that differences between say 92% and 98% pure are noticeably significant, or more in the range of say 80% pure and 98% pure?
Because in the first case scenario, with a 200mcg dose, that's 184mcg LSD and 16mcg impurities on one hand and 196mcg LSD and 4mcg impurities on the other. So assuming that in this case, the impurities create a noticeable effect, that means that 12mcg of these impurities make a profound difference on your mind and body. Those are some incredibly powerful chemicals then. I don't think you could tell the difference between the 196mcg and 184mcg doses of LSD, honestly. That's splitting hairs.
On the other hand, let's take the second scenario and say the acid is absolute shit, there's 160mcg LSD and 40 mcg impurities vs. 196mcg LSD and 4mcg impurities, at that point you have a 36mcg difference in the doses of acid and 36mcg difference in the levels of impurities. At that point, the difference in LSD doses alone is going to be noticeable, and that's a fair amount of extra chemicals that, if working synergistically, I would say it's plausible, that you would notice a difference in body load.
So which is it you're saying? You're some kind of psychedelic wunderkind who can notice a 12 mcg difference in impurities while on a drug that gives wildly different effects even at the same dosage and purity? Or are you saying that grossly impure acid can have a noticeably larger body load? Because the first is absolute bullshit, the second I will grant that it's possible, though not certain.
Edited by P.Zappatecorum (05/30/17 02:19 PM)
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
#24364177 - 05/31/17 04:39 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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In my experience, I can tell the difference between tabs. I have never sent tabs into a lab for analysis, so, I do not really know what quantities of impurities were present. I just know what was advertised. I was able to determine accurately, prior to knowing the advertised purity, what crystal I was given, once. But, it could have been a lucky guess. I only blindly tasted once, all other times I knew what was advertised. My own input doesn't count for much here.
As for Sand, Owsley, and Scully, they believed even small quantities made an effect. Your critique of their being under psychedelic delusional mania, a la McKenna, is a valid one. Thank-you for your contribution to the discussion.
By the way, something I just thought would be interesting - I wonder if people would be able to tell if, say, 5-10 ug of an ergoline such as ALD-52 or AL-LAD were added to someone's tab of, say, 100-200 ug LSD? Sand's claim seems to be that it is the sensory magnification of the LSD, PLUS the synergistic effect of the otherwise inactive chemicals that makes them noticeable to the user. A good way to test if ergolines have noticeable effects at such doses due to LSD's sensory magnification would be to simply add an ergoline we know is active already to LSD, and see what happens.
Given that LSD is active in microdoses at 5-10 ug, it would not shock me if it were noticeable, and even more noticeable due to LSD's sensory magnifying effects! And if the "inactives" are in fact active at similar doses as the rest of the psychedelic ergolines, but only in synergy with LSD ... you see where I'm going.
Of course, we'd need funds to do that study, soooo ... anyone wanna try it and post the results that we will be completely unable to accept but still probably find interesting to consider?
Edited by Space Monkey (05/31/17 04:52 AM)
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
#24364179 - 05/31/17 04:42 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
P.Zappatecorum said:So which is it you're saying? You're some kind of psychedelic wunderkind who can notice a 12 mcg difference in impurities while on a drug that gives wildly different effects even at the same dosage and purity? Or are you saying that grossly impure acid can have a noticeably larger body load? Because the first is absolute bullshit, the second I will grant that it's possible, though not certain.
LSD itself is active at 5-10ug in microdosing. If the impurities such as iso-LSD and others, are active at similar doses, but only in synergy with LSD (just as many cannabinoids are only psychoactive in synergy with THC), then why not? It'd be like a microdose, but with the added sensory magnification of LSD, so it'd be that much more noticeable.
Thanks for your opposition, it helps me think. But ... no need to be mean about it
Edited by Space Monkey (05/31/17 04:51 AM)
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24364688 - 05/31/17 09:14 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Microdosing's effects are very subtle, and it's hard to say they're more than placebo. I've experimented with microdosing. My contention is more that the effects of LSD are variable enough that while these secondary chemicals may have some small effect, it is probably not possible to differentiate between normal variation in the psychedelic experience and the slight shifts in the experience from impurities.
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Psychonott
Stranger
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
#24364842 - 05/31/17 10:07 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Slightly off topic but I recently heard Sandoval was never making Anything other than lsd but in order to have a sound legal defense claimed that he was making the legal drug at that time (ald 52 or whatever its called ) but in reality he was in the process of manufacturing lsd but this was a legal defense and the lore stared
-------------------- Enlils true purpose is to get us off topic and to cast enough logical doubts so that outsiders viewing this would be more likely to side with his fake opinions rather than our or sometimes controlled opppsotions opinions. You see if you are too skilled at not falling for their traps and stating logically sound debunks then other accounts who purposefully agree with 90% of the truth join in and get the entire topic off the main points. It's their 1960s version of damage control and diversion but man it's painfully obvious in 2017
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Headrush
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Psychonott] 1
#24368430 - 06/01/17 04:27 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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David Nichols is the most knowledgeable person on Earth in this area and he has publicly dispelled this silly myth long ago. LSD impurities are irrelevant. This debate is as ignorant as flat Earth. LSD chemists strive for purity for the simple fact that purer crystal will lay more paper and for personal satisfaction. David Nichols also boasts he made the purest. Ald 52 is far superior if you're concerned about less side effects.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Headrush]
#24369879 - 06/02/17 04:20 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Nick Sand made and took more than Nichols... a lot more. All of them did. They were all adamant about it. Nichols is a researcher ... they were guinea pigs.
Edited by Space Monkey (06/02/17 04:21 AM)
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AkashicExplorer
Dimensional Jumper
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24369956 - 06/02/17 06:08 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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The best research on psychedelics, is done on oneself...
I myself tried about 5 strains of mushrooms, where golden teacher and mexicana give me wisdom (mexican enhances funny and silly too), while B+ just affects my body a little expands my mind with "psychedelic noise" (visual and auditory) and White Lighting I believe might be similar to cacti. I never tried cacti, but I have been told they make you feel very human and very connected to earth, so does White Lightning.
I have more strains to test, and then, when people ask for advice, have this personal experience. I want to infact, write a post with "A CUBE is NOT ALWAYS a CUBE. Cubes among them are not the same!"
The same goes with LSD (and any other psychedelic) in the terms of the acid itself. I cannot speak much about acid, a friend who has pure LSD will be sharing a drop (200 ug, one drop for each of course) with a couple others and me, and it will be my first time. However, I believed that acid, even pure, has the same side-effects at a body level and at a mind level than acid that is not pure. Lets not forget that psychedelics have some common side effects, and we need to know ourselves well, our substance and the provider.
Pure acid won't save you from side effect. If something, they might even maximize if the acid you took previously wasn't very pure and the added RC did not have those side effects, you never know, is always a gamble, this is why pure acid is best.
If its bitter, its a spitter.
If you have high blood pressure or heart problems:
Stay way from LSD and DMT (probably Salvia too, but not sure), period.
Do not play with your life unnecessary, if you do not smoke weed and you never did, take a couple or three hits (in a joint, weed only) or one hit in the bong. Prepare for launch, it will surprise you (but do not get used to it, tolerance builds fast) Doses of 2-3 grams of shrooms are safe for the "fast-heart-paced" and I believe that Mescaline also goes well (but never tried them yet, I do not plan to try them as I am not drawn to their humanness and earthiness, but you never know (I am actually growing one Peyote cactus, but just because the flower is very cool hahaha, but that was really the only goal, I doubt I will eat it. At least, with my current state of mind and lifestyle (I am much more of an "ET" guy and get my ass out from this planet.)
-------------------- The 87 gram MushZilla BEAST And it just obliterated the uttermost crap out from me. Love, Bliss, Laughter and Enlightenment!
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Headrush]
#24370717 - 06/02/17 11:46 AM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
Headrush said: David Nichols is the most knowledgeable person on Earth in this area and he has publicly dispelled this silly myth long ago. LSD impurities are irrelevant. This debate is as ignorant as flat Earth. LSD chemists strive for purity for the simple fact that purer crystal will lay more paper and for personal satisfaction. David Nichols also boasts he made the purest. Ald 52 is far superior if you're concerned about less side effects.
Also, source on Nichols. I know Shulgin confirmed in the TIHKAL LSD entry that the impurities are inactive when taken by themselves at any dose, but of course, if one has followed the discussion, that has been shown to not be the issue we are discussing (listen to the Nick Sand interview again if you're confused). Many cannabinoids also have no psychoactive activity by themselves at any dose, except in synergy with THC (something we all understand just from having smoked a lot of pot collectively as a culture). I am skeptical merely because, as I've mentioned a few times so far, I don't think the necessary studies have been done at all, simply because they would need to be considerably large studies...
The claim, essentially, is that the impurities are active at similar dosage levels as the other psychoactive ergolines, in the ug range, but that they only exert synergistic effect in combination with primarily active ergolines. Though present in small quantities, psychedelic ergolines in general have been shown to be active at 5-10 ug (microdoses); so it's basically a microdose of something whose only activity is synergistic, and whose microdose-level activity is made more apparent than typical microdosed substances because one is already fully high on a primarily active ergoline, meaning they would be much more sensitive and aware of a microdosed substance's effects.
This is why I would be curious if people would notice to any substantial degree the effect of, say, 5-10 ug of ALD-52 in conjunction with 100-200 ug of LSD. If it were noticeable, and one posited the impurities to only have synergistic activity, the theory is plausible, I believe. Show me the study you are referencing, and I will analyze it to see if it debunks anything, but I highly doubt it will. As people keep on saying, set and setting are major factors here, it would take a massive study to be able to safely account for these factors in the psychedelic experience. The claim is not that purity is the only factor in experiences of body load and subjective clarity; only that it is one of them.
The only people I know of who probably took enough acid whose quality was perfectly well known to even hazard a good educated guess about this, would be chemists like Sand, Owsley, and Scully. These are not rigorous studies of course, but as of now they're the best we've got, in my opinion.
By the way, to a lot of you: stop saying things like "you're a noob, buy a sheet and take 20 trips on it", or "this is as open for debate as the shape of the earth". You're wrong. Dead wrong. You can state your reasons for believing things, but this is not a dead issue, and even if it were, rudeness is inexcusable. Please, do not get sucked into internet hatred, the reason these chemists even got into making psychedelics was so that people would stop being mean to each other. Please do not let the barrier of a screen prevent you from showing the basic courtesy, empathy, and restraint that decent human beings show to one another. This is the very reason I did not want to debate, because people on the internet get MEAN, when they otherwise would not. It's a tough thing to keep a handle on, I already laughed rudely at somebody who I felt was being mean to me, and I want things to be more socially hygienic here. I will engage with you, I will not trade insults with you, and I am not okay with being treated that way, even online. Thank-you.
Edited by Space Monkey (06/02/17 12:07 PM)
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badchad
Mad Scientist
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,376
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24370886 - 06/02/17 12:45 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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We're probably beating a dead horse here, but: The inter-individual psychoactive effects of drugs are quite variable. If you give 30 research subjects an identical does of a drug, you will have a large degree of variation. This is especially true of psychedelics.
Few substances are active in the microgram range. Moreover, it would be a pharmacological oddity for a compound to be completely inactive, then have active effects in the presence of another drug.
You are correct that it would take an extremely large study to examine the effects of impurities. This fact in and of itself highlights how small of a role they play.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24371226 - 06/02/17 02:37 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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I do not think it shows impurities play a small role. I think it merely illustrates how large a role set and setting play. It does not mean purity does not play a comparatively large role as well.
As I've said, I believe that things like meditation, contemplation of love, yoga, etc. - can induce experiences of greater clarity and reduced body load. What this illustrates is that, even if you reject the idea of synergistically-psychoactive impurities, the LSD itself is not the only thing which influences experiences of subjective clarity or body load. So, I would say it is certainly not the case that this proves how small a role the impurities play - unless you're saying the LSD itself does not play a large role :P
Edited by Space Monkey (06/02/17 02:51 PM)
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badchad
Mad Scientist
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,376
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24371363 - 06/02/17 03:26 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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In clinical trials, set and setting are tightly controlled. Even in this context, with pure drug, experienced vary widely. This suggests the experience itself is so variable, impurities wouldn't be noticed. It also suggests anecdotal case reports, outside of a controlled set and setting are all but meaningless.
If you need a large number of subjects to demonstrate a significant difference in a clinical trial, it is because you are trying to capture a very small effect.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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sunshine
Sin18DwireWuTang
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24371575 - 06/02/17 04:32 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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You didn't have to worry about the cops busting down your door.
-------------------- One Love True Indeed. Have Good Trips. Mike/sunshine's mom.
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P.Zappatecorum
Lophophilus
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24371756 - 06/02/17 05:32 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: In clinical trials, set and setting are tightly controlled. Even in this context, with pure drug, experienced vary widely. This suggests the experience itself is so variable, impurities wouldn't be noticed. It also suggests anecdotal case reports, outside of a controlled set and setting are all but meaningless.
If you need a large number of subjects to demonstrate a significant difference in a clinical trial, it is because you are trying to capture a very small effect.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24372441 - 06/02/17 10:03 PM (6 years, 9 months ago) |
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Quote:
badchad said: In clinical trials, set and setting are tightly controlled. Even in this context, with pure drug, experienced vary widely. This suggests the experience itself is so variable, impurities wouldn't be noticed. It also suggests anecdotal case reports, outside of a controlled set and setting are all but meaningless.
If you need a large number of subjects to demonstrate a significant difference in a clinical trial, it is because you are trying to capture a very small effect.
Indeed, I agree... mostly. But, small things can lead to large consequences. I highly recommend Sand's two articles on DMT. He has some excellent statements about the "authorized" studies of these things.
Edited by Space Monkey (06/02/17 10:05 PM)
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24592981 - 08/31/17 10:31 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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I've started working at a medical marijuana dispensary. As part of my job, I have to research cannabis whenever I'm not working on anything else. One of the first things I had to learn was something called the "entourage effect". Which is basically exactly what I suspected was going on.
https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/cannabis-entourage-effect-why-thc-and-cbd-only-medicines-arent-g
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entourage_effect
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badchad
Mad Scientist
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Posts: 13,376
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24593406 - 08/31/17 01:44 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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And have you come across any legit clinical trials demonstrating the effect?
The body evidence appears to be anecdotal and consisting of random web pages.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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Thayendanegea
quiet walker
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24593574 - 08/31/17 03:03 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said: I've started working at a medical marijuana dispensary. As part of my job, I have to research cannabis whenever I'm not working on anything else. One of the first things I had to learn was something called the "entourage effect". Which is basically exactly what I suspected was going on.
https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/cannabis-entourage-effect-why-thc-and-cbd-only-medicines-arent-g
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entourage_effect
Just seems like partial propaganda to get you to sell more of their wares. They have nothing to benefit from people wanting to buy weed that doesn't get you high because nobody will buy it.
There are several medical benefits to cannabis or marijuana...whichever word you prefer...but most people won't buy what doesn't get them high and that is the huge assed elephant in the cannabis room.
-------------------- Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better. Albert Einstein
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Northerner
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Thayendanegea]
#24593842 - 08/31/17 05:11 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have found anecdotally that not all LSD is created equally. Some is more visual, some is more headfucky, some is twistier... this is just my experience.
Just having a range of different ones to try at different times has shown this to me. One I can take and within an hour I can start to see the rainbows, whereas another is a slower but stronger come up that leads to massive illusions. Sure they are both the same thing essentially, but the subtleties of the different xtals are noticeable when you have done them several times and compare them to the others that you have also done several times. This is the advantage of buying several chunks of 25 or more for personal use. I've done double blind tests with friends and been able to tell which of 4 different tabs I've taken.
I always argued to the contrary, that LSD is just LSD and the differences and impurities are so minuscule that no one could tell the difference, that all physical effects are just psychosomatic, set and setting. But I highly doubt that now.
Unfortunately I can't call my experiments science, because I'm just a tripper.
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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Citizen X
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Northerner]
#24593949 - 08/31/17 05:45 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Jumping in so I can watch this later
-------------------- Rate me here
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howsyournaggerdoin
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Northerner]
#24607754 - 09/06/17 04:30 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Should probably test if your blotters really contain LSD
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Shroomway
It's me!
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
#24607827 - 09/06/17 06:01 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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One of the problems in this kind of discusions is that you never know when you were trying pure or impure LSD. You might as well had a very good experience on impure LSD and think you had very pure stuff that time... No way of telling IMO. Unless you let a lab test it
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Eclipse3130
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Shroomway]
#24607871 - 09/06/17 06:39 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Based on my experience LSD is LSD. I've tried countless different batches and unless you're taking the exact micrograms for micrograms dosages between them(you wouldn't know unless you made it yourself) you will not be able to tell the difference, even then, what you think may be pure or dirty LSD is all based on your reaction to the experience.
But what adds even more unique variability is set and setting. Kind of like how in one scenario you can have the "strongest" trip of your life off 1 tab, that had no comparison to your 2 or 3 tab trips. It's all subjective.
There is no such thing as identical experiences, there is an infinite amount of experience to be had. And LSD and the psychedelic experience itself is so widely variable (meaning literally anything can happen) how would you ever be able to pin point purity or impurity, you wouldn't, especially because the impurities of LSD are known to not be psychologically active.
LSD has a wide arrange of effects including vasoconstriction and body tension/tremors.
Not 1 trip will be the same as the next
Psychedelic experience is highly variable and there's no such thing as dirty acid. 100ug of 99% pure will have the exact same potency as 200ug of 50% pure
The only thing that makes a pure LSD crystal different from impure is its ability to absorb, reflect and radiate the energies and intentions of its creator this may be reflected through realizations or conscious advancement within the trip but no direct physical effect change
LSD purity is a myth, and is widely accepted and known amongst shroomery users.
LSD is LSD the same way THC is THC
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
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howsyournaggerdoin
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Shroomway]
#24607883 - 09/06/17 06:49 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Shroomway said: One of the problems in this kind of discusions is that you never know when you were trying pure or impure LSD. You might as well had a very good experience on impure LSD and think you had very pure stuff that time... No way of telling IMO. Unless you let a lab test it
It doesnt matter how pure the LSD is since all impurities are inactive at those low doses. The only thing that matters is how much active LSD is on your blotter.
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Psycstasy
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
#24608341 - 09/06/17 10:14 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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If I'm not mistaken. I believe d-isomer LSD is the only psychoactive portion, however, if the chemist does not perform and isolation/clean up To have a finished product of pure D isomer. The L-isomer, being psycho- inactive, is apparently active in certain tissues within the body which are receptive to its agonism, leading to the host of anecdotal bodily responses...however, I am sure d-LSD has direct effect on NE, thus even a pure isolated d-isomer batch will agonise NE, causing the adrenal responses in the body, and of course, set and setting, if one is mentally tense and anxious during the trip, this will result in a further exacerbation of NE symptoms...never the less, I believe that starting with a pure d -isomer sample versus a racemic sample would put the user at a higher beginning likihood of experiencing unwanted NE effects before set, setting, anxiety levels, drug interactions, trip content and misc things plays a part in the amount of NE related effects felt.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Eclipse3130]
#24609956 - 09/06/17 08:40 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Eclipse3130 said: LSD is LSD the same way THC is THC
But THC's psychoactive effect is influenced by many otherwise inactive compounds which never manifest their own psychoactivity at any dose until combined with THC, just the most well known of which is CBD.
LSD impurities are similar in structure to LSD itself.
Like many cannabinoids such as CBD, these ergolines might just be active as entourage compounds in a similar dosage range as LSD, though they may manifest no psychoactivity at all when taken on their own at any dose.
This is just to say, THC is definitely not just THC, and this is well understood and accepted. I see no logical reason for one to deny that certain ergolines might just be active as entourage compounds and nothing more, as CBD is psychoactive as an entourage compound and nothing more.
If it's only active as entourage compound, of course it will not be active on its own! The reason for denying the hypothesis is immediately fallacious! And of course LSD's cognitive effects might cause one not to notice it consistently, since even the same batches fluctuate in effect - that's just what psychedelics are like, no experience is identical. But that would just mean that even if impurity did have an effect, it would be difficult to grasp that it was doing so!
So, I defer to the guys that did it more than anyone else and could evaluate best; the underground chemists themselves. Nick Sand explicitly said in an interview at a festival on youtube that he found iso-LSD affected his trips. Other chemists said the same. I just think it's an interesting and plausible hypothesis which suggests that entourage chemicals might exist that are active in the microgram range; certain ergolines, in conjunction with full on psychedelic ergolines.
I think it's a theory worth testing, if that were possible. I don't see an a priori logical problem that would make this hypothesis not worth attempted testing. It certainly does not seem like a "far out" hypothesis. It's not like "praying to the crystal effects its vibration" or anything... just: Hey, things like iso-LSD might be ug range entourage compounds!
Edited by Space Monkey (09/06/17 08:48 PM)
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24609980 - 09/06/17 08:51 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said:
Quote:
Eclipse3130 said: LSD is LSD the same way THC is THC
But THC's psychoactive effect is influenced by many otherwise inactive compounds which never manifest their own psychoactivity at any dose until combined with THC, just the most well known of which is CBD.
Not to mention cannabis plant material with low amounts of THC feels absolutely nothing like cannabis with high amounts of THC. Even if you take massive doses of the weak stuff and low doses of the strong stuff they never quite compare.
For the sake of the argument let us assume you have two different kinds of plant material with no other cannabinoids in it other than 9-Delta-THC and you rolled them each into joints of equal amounts. Let's imagine one of them is 10% THC and the other is 20% THC. If you smoked 2 of the 10% ones would you get the same high as you would from just smoking one joint of the 20%? Because I would argue that you wouldn't.
So I think the notion that a bunch of weak acid equalling a normal or even a low amount of highly pure acid to be crap logic. There isn't a single drug that works that way.
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howsyournaggerdoin
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24610657 - 09/07/17 02:16 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Psycstasy said: If I'm not mistaken. I believe d-isomer LSD is the only psychoactive portion, however, if the chemist does not perform and isolation/clean up To have a finished product of pure D isomer. The L-isomer, being psycho- inactive, is apparently active in certain tissues within the body which are receptive to its agonism, leading to the host of anecdotal bodily responses...however, I am sure d-LSD has direct effect on NE, thus even a pure isolated d-isomer batch will agonise NE, causing the adrenal responses in the body, and of course, set and setting, if one is mentally tense and anxious during the trip, this will result in a further exacerbation of NE symptoms...never the less, I believe that starting with a pure d -isomer sample versus a racemic sample would put the user at a higher beginning likihood of experiencing unwanted NE effects before set, setting, anxiety levels, drug interactions, trip content and misc things plays a part in the amount of NE related effects felt.
Link ?
Quote:
Space Monkey said:
Quote:
Eclipse3130 said: LSD is LSD the same way THC is THC
But THC's psychoactive effect is influenced by many otherwise inactive compounds which never manifest their own psychoactivity at any dose until combined with THC, just the most well known of which is CBD.
LSD impurities are similar in structure to LSD itself.
Like many cannabinoids such as CBD, these ergolines might just be active as entourage compounds in a similar dosage range as LSD, though they may manifest no psychoactivity at all when taken on their own at any dose.
This is just to say, THC is definitely not just THC, and this is well understood and accepted. I see no logical reason for one to deny that certain ergolines might just be active as entourage compounds and nothing more, as CBD is psychoactive as an entourage compound and nothing more.
If it's only active as entourage compound, of course it will not be active on its own! The reason for denying the hypothesis is immediately fallacious! And of course LSD's cognitive effects might cause one not to notice it consistently, since even the same batches fluctuate in effect - that's just what psychedelics are like, no experience is identical. But that would just mean that even if impurity did have an effect, it would be difficult to grasp that it was doing so!
So, I defer to the guys that did it more than anyone else and could evaluate best; the underground chemists themselves. Nick Sand explicitly said in an interview at a festival on youtube that he found iso-LSD affected his trips. Other chemists said the same. I just think it's an interesting and plausible hypothesis which suggests that entourage chemicals might exist that are active in the microgram range; certain ergolines, in conjunction with full on psychedelic ergolines.
I think it's a theory worth testing, if that were possible. I don't see an a priori logical problem that would make this hypothesis not worth attempted testing. It certainly does not seem like a "far out" hypothesis. It's not like "praying to the crystal effects its vibration" or anything... just: Hey, things like iso-LSD might be ug range entourage compounds!
LSD is pretty well studied. If any of the impurities were active youd find mentions of it in the literature.
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TempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24611669 - 09/07/17 02:01 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Wouldn't it be great for you if the world worked that way? You could state your opinion like fact and declare that it's not up for debate. Wow, that's neat.
-------------------- “How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”
Edited by TempestDnB (09/07/17 02:06 PM)
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TempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: TempestDnB]
#24611676 - 09/07/17 02:05 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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If the purity is lower, that means less LSD, and that would most certainly affect the trip. Duh, solved your problem.
-------------------- “How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”
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TempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24611757 - 09/07/17 02:50 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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I'm reading through this and if I read "these three chemists" one more time.. I'll make a drinking game out of it. I don't really give a fuck what those three chemists thought, because they are human and just as susceptible to non sense as any of us, like believing you can instill your intentions into the crystals you're making. So many myths, but I guess they're around because they add a bit of magic or mystery to the whole thing. Plus marketing and greed. Sorry about the tone of his post. I'm just getting annoyed reading it.
-------------------- “How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”
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TempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
#24611779 - 09/07/17 02:57 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
P.Zappatecorum said: Also, taking LSD frequently leads to delusional thinking. When I'm dosing frequently I start getting into some pretty silly shit, seeing connections that aren't there, thinking things are more significant than they are etc. So I don't necessarily trust anything somebody taking huge amounts of psychedelics is saying. That's my problem with McKenna. He was really smart and had a lot of brilliant ideas, but he also spouted a whole lot of bullshit. Obsessing over minutuea and thinking you can sense these subtle differences is pretty classic psychedelic mania, so I'm skeptical. If they're talking about a few micrograms of impurities dramatically affecting the trip then I call bullshit. We can agree to disagree.
I said in my first post that "other chemicals" can influence the trip, I do think that the secondary alkaloids in cactus and mushrooms for instance, do marginally effect the trip, but not consistently and not super dramatically, such that it may be just a vague impression that "on average" ovoids vs. cubensis or peyote vs. bridgesii feel different, but you might not be able to tell which you got in a blind taste test.
LSD impurities may do the same, but they have to be there in sufficient quanitities to be medically relevant. If you're saying there's a noticeable difference between say 10mcg and 30mcg of impurities in a dose, I think you're basically pushing homeopathics. LSD itself is hardly noticeable at levels that low, and these impurities are not thought to be active on their own, so that would have to be an insane amount of synergy to make them pharmalogically significant at that low of a dose.
What levels of impurities are these guys saying are significant? Do they ever mention quantities? I'm just looking at this rationally and from a pharmacological standpoint. It makes no sense to me.
This post is on point. This is pretty much my view. Shulgin also tried these impurities at the mg level and noticed no effects. So at the ug level I imagine that there would also be no effects, regardless of whether or not they were taken with LSD. Sorry for all of the posts.
-------------------- “How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”
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TempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
#24611896 - 09/07/17 03:50 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Aurora, LSD is not THC, they do not behave the same way pharmacokinetically, so I would have to say that your logic is not solid, and therefore "crap logic" as you call it.
Not a single drug that works that way? Pfffft. So if I do some cocaine that is cut 50/50 and some pure cocaine, you're telling me that if I do some of the pure stuff and double the weight of that of the cut stuff, they won't affect me in the same way?
-------------------- “How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: TempestDnB]
#24612197 - 09/07/17 06:09 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
TempestDnB said: Aurora, LSD is not THC, they do not behave the same way pharmacokinetically, so I would have to say that your logic is not solid, and therefore "crap logic" as you call it.
I never said they were the same or even similar it was simply an example. I've even noticed this same thing with weak mushrooms vs potent mushrooms. Should I have used that as an example instead?
Quote:
So if I do some cocaine that is cut 50/50 and some pure cocaine, you're telling me that if I do some of the pure stuff and double the weight of that of the cut stuff, they won't affect me in the same way?
Probably not. It certainly doesn't work that way for MDMA and things like that so I doubt it would be that way for cocaine however the cocaine high isn't very complex so it's not a good example anyways but no I would wager that it wouldn't be.
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
#24612347 - 09/07/17 07:23 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
howsyournaggerdoin said: LSD is pretty well studied. If any of the impurities were active youd find mentions of it in the literature.
The impurities most certainly are not active, when taken on their own. However, this does not preclude them from having activity as entourage compounds.
CBD has no effect on its own. But, it influences the effects of THC. Extrapolate that paradigm to LSD and iso-LSD.
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TempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24612370 - 09/07/17 07:32 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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But it doesn't work that way as far as I know. It sounds good on paper..
-------------------- “How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”
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Northerner
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: TempestDnB]
#24612877 - 09/08/17 01:29 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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LSD isn't really all that well studied... they jammed the brakes on that in the 60's. It's only recently we are getting new scientific data.
Otherwise we would have some empirical information to work with, rather than this endless anecdotal thread that has been appearing since long before I joined the shroomery.
--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.
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howsyournaggerdoin
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
#24612878 - 09/08/17 01:30 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said:
Quote:
howsyournaggerdoin said: LSD is pretty well studied. If any of the impurities were active youd find mentions of it in the literature.
The impurities most certainly are not active, when taken on their own. However, this does not preclude them from having activity as entourage compounds.
Even if that were the case they wouldve found out by now. Also i think this would be the first time that any drug ever works like that.
Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said:
Quote:
TempestDnB said: Aurora, LSD is not THC, they do not behave the same way pharmacokinetically, so I would have to say that your logic is not solid, and therefore "crap logic" as you call it.
I never said they were the same or even similar it was simply an example. I've even noticed this same thing with weak mushrooms vs potent mushrooms. Should I have used that as an example instead?
Probably a bad example aswell since mushrooms contain active compounds besides psilocybin and psilocin
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Space Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
#24613101 - 09/08/17 06:32 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
howsyournaggerdoin said:
Quote:
Space Monkey said:
Quote:
howsyournaggerdoin said: LSD is pretty well studied. If any of the impurities were active youd find mentions of it in the literature.
The impurities most certainly are not active, when taken on their own. However, this does not preclude them from having activity as entourage compounds.
Even if that were the case they wouldve found out by now. Also i think this would be the first time that any drug ever works like that.
CBD works like that. Go back a few decades, and we could be having the exact same conversation about cannabis. But, we now know that cannabis does indeed work like that.
Not only does it work like that, it has a term. "Entourage compound".
Edited by Space Monkey (09/08/17 06:32 AM)
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badchad
Mad Scientist
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,376
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24613159 - 09/08/17 07:32 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
Space Monkey said: ]
CBD works like that. Go back a few decades, and we could be having the exact same conversation about cannabis. But, we now know that cannabis does indeed work like that.
Not only does it work like that, it has a term. "Entourage compound".
CBD has pharmacological effects on its own.
Ligands working with synergistic, additive, or antagonistic effects are well-known. Though there are semantics involved in what constitutes "Activity," it is rare that a compound completely devoid of any pharmacological activity will magically enhance the effects of another.
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
Edited by badchad (09/08/17 07:35 AM)
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
#24613560 - 09/08/17 11:42 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
howsyournaggerdoin said: Probably a bad example aswell since mushrooms contain active compounds besides psilocybin and psilocin
True but I don't think that dismantles the logic because they still contain psilocin and psilocin is psilocin. And weak shrooms no matter how much I take never feel like even a small amount of the potent stuff. Even if I take a microdose of the potent stuff it feels nothing like the weak stuff. The weak stuff always takes way longer to kick in too, like an hour at least whereas the potent stuff I can feel within 30 minutes even if it's a threshold amount. And the quality of the experience is clearly different.
I just maintain the idea that when there's a higher concentration of the active molecule whether it'd be Psilocin, LSD, THC or whatever..the fact that it's all passing the blood brain barrier much sooner and sort of all at once in a much more concentrated amount actually results in a "different experience" despite the molecules being exactly the same. People can say whatever they want about chemistry and molecular structures because the real mystery is the difference in pharmacokinetics. I firmly believe that the pharmacokinetics of taking highly concentrated LSD vs diluted LSD behave differently.
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badchad
Mad Scientist
Registered: 03/02/05
Posts: 13,376
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
#24613742 - 09/08/17 01:05 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Quote:
AuroraBorealis88 said: I firmly believe that the pharmacokinetics of taking highly concentrated LSD vs diluted LSD behave differently.
Interesting, what PK parameters do you think would be different?
-------------------- ...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge. It is an indellible experience; it is forever known. I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did. Smith, P. Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27. ...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely. Osmond, H. Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436
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AuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24614083 - 09/08/17 03:08 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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I have no idea
Would be interesting to see some studies done on it.
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Space Monkey
Registered: 10/09/12
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
#24617048 - 09/09/17 09:05 PM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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badchad said:
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Space Monkey said: ]
CBD works like that. Go back a few decades, and we could be having the exact same conversation about cannabis. But, we now know that cannabis does indeed work like that.
Not only does it work like that, it has a term. "Entourage compound".
CBD has pharmacological effects on its own.
Ligands working with synergistic, additive, or antagonistic effects are well-known. Though there are semantics involved in what constitutes "Activity," it is rare that a compound completely devoid of any pharmacological activity will magically enhance the effects of another.
Sure. What I mean is: it won't get you high. But, taking it in conjunction with THC, will alter your THC high. I think it is plausible something similar might be the case with things like iso-LSD. Iso-LSD as far as I can tell, isn't that well studied. I mean, yeah, I've seen a lot of people mention that Shulgin took a bunch of it... but that doesn't seem too extensive. Did he take it in conjunction with LSD? Not as far as I can know!
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Eclipse3130
Servant of the Fungi
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
#24628430 - 09/14/17 09:40 AM (6 years, 6 months ago) |
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Like others have said, we really don't know for sure. We still need serious research.
So it's best to keep an open mind to both perspectives in my opinion.
Iso-LSD from my understanding definitely plays some type of role we need further research.
From variability of set and setting to dosage, it's quite hard to pinpoint if the LSD impurities are playing a role.
I've had certain LSD I'd sware by to produce a consistent effect every time, and others which gave me negative effects, my experience correlated with the others who have used it as well.
But I can't say for sure it's impurity, it could be many many things.
I'm a firm believer in Crystal purity playing a massive role in experience to reflect, as well as pure crystalline structures especially LSD having the ability to work as a Crystal Capacitor(able to absorb, integrate and reflect the energies and intentions of those in its presence and especially of its Creator)
Even if impurities are not psychologically active, this takes away from the actual purity and reflective quality of the crystal itself.
If we look at DMT extraction for example, besides the active counterparts which can be extracted (NN DMT, DMT N-oxide), we are left with psychologically inactive and impure plant byproducts, oils, fats, etc.
Say we have 99% pure white reflective crystal DMT
Sitting next to 90% pure yellow plant fat and oil DMT...
These impurities may not be psychologically active, but they are physically active - meaning your body can detect and interact with the experience of them(subjective)
In this case, we have dirty DMT with no known psychologically active impurities, yet the impurity may still be very easy to detect in the body.. (NOT THE MIND)
This impurity can attribute to negative effects within the experience that is not DMT.
I say it's the same with LSD, the impurities may not be psychologically active, but that does not mean they are not physically detectable, meaning you can feel them playing a part in the trip which is not LSD itself, especially in such a heightened and elevated state of awareness, it would be very easy to detect. More visually intense LSD is actually less pure of a crystal, the purest crystal will act as a transparency for your consciousness, highly visual crystal is still high purity, based on its ability to reflect light, but the purest is a transparent quality.
The world will never know..
We can look at something such as THC extraction concentrates with the use of no solvents (butane) judt heat(rosin press)
It will contain psychologically inactive impurities, misc plant material, but that very impurity seriously effects the experience within the body compared to not: The ability to reflect
This is my experience and view
-------------------- "In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply Different ways in which The All-That Is Perceives Itself"
Edited by Eclipse3130 (09/14/17 11:24 AM)
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