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OfflineP.Zappatecorum
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
    #24371756 - 06/02/17 05:32 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
In clinical trials, set and setting are tightly controlled. Even in this context, with pure drug, experienced vary widely. This suggests the experience itself is so variable, impurities wouldn't be noticed. It also suggests anecdotal case reports, outside of a controlled set and setting are all but meaningless.

If you need a large number of subjects to demonstrate a significant difference in a clinical trial, it is because you are trying to capture a very small effect.



:solidnod:

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OfflineSpace Monkey
Registered: 10/09/12
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: badchad]
    #24372441 - 06/02/17 10:03 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

badchad said:
In clinical trials, set and setting are tightly controlled. Even in this context, with pure drug, experienced vary widely. This suggests the experience itself is so variable, impurities wouldn't be noticed. It also suggests anecdotal case reports, outside of a controlled set and setting are all but meaningless.

If you need a large number of subjects to demonstrate a significant difference in a clinical trial, it is because you are trying to capture a very small effect.




Indeed, I agree... mostly. But, small things can lead to large consequences. I highly recommend Sand's two articles on DMT. He has some excellent statements about the "authorized" studies of these things.

Edited by Space Monkey (06/02/17 10:05 PM)

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OfflineSpace Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
    #24592981 - 08/31/17 10:31 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I've started working at a medical marijuana dispensary. As part of my job, I have to research cannabis whenever I'm not working on anything else. One of the first things I had to learn was something called the "entourage effect". Which is basically exactly what I suspected was going on.

https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/cannabis-entourage-effect-why-thc-and-cbd-only-medicines-arent-g

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entourage_effect

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Invisiblebadchad
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Registered: 03/02/05
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
    #24593406 - 08/31/17 01:44 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

And have you come across any legit clinical trials demonstrating the effect?

The body evidence appears to be anecdotal and consisting of random web pages.


--------------------
...the whole experience is (and is as) a profound piece of knowledge.  It is an indellible experience; it is forever known.  I have known myself in a way I doubt I would have ever occurred except as it did.

Smith, P.  Bull. Menninger Clinic (1959) 23:20-27; p. 27.

...most subjects find the experience valuable, some find it frightening, and many say that is it uniquely lovely.

Osmond, H.  Annals, NY Acad Science (1957) 66:418-434; p.436

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InvisibleThayendanegea
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
    #24593574 - 08/31/17 03:03 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Space Monkey said:
I've started working at a medical marijuana dispensary. As part of my job, I have to research cannabis whenever I'm not working on anything else. One of the first things I had to learn was something called the "entourage effect". Which is basically exactly what I suspected was going on.

https://www.leafly.com/news/cannabis-101/cannabis-entourage-effect-why-thc-and-cbd-only-medicines-arent-g

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Entourage_effect



Just seems like partial propaganda to get you to sell more of their wares. They have nothing to benefit from people wanting to buy weed that doesn't get you high because nobody will buy it.

There are several medical benefits to cannabis or marijuana...whichever word you prefer...but most people won't buy what doesn't get them high and that is the huge assed elephant in the cannabis room.


--------------------
Look Deep Into Nature,and Then You Will Understand Everything Better.

Albert Einstein

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OfflineNorthernerM
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Thayendanegea]
    #24593842 - 08/31/17 05:11 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I have found anecdotally that not all LSD is created equally. Some is more visual, some is more headfucky, some is twistier... this is just my experience.

Just having a range of different ones to try at different times has shown this to me. One I can take and within an hour I can start to see the rainbows, whereas another is a slower but stronger come up that leads to massive illusions. Sure they are both the same thing essentially, but the subtleties of the different xtals are noticeable when you have done them several times and compare them to the others that you have also done several times. This is the advantage of buying several chunks of 25 or more for personal use. I've done double blind tests with friends and been able to tell which of 4 different tabs I've taken.

I always argued to the contrary, that LSD is just LSD and the differences and impurities are so minuscule that no one could tell the difference, that all physical effects are just psychosomatic, set and setting. But I highly doubt that now.

Unfortunately I can't call my experiments science, because I'm just a tripper.


--------------------
The nearest we ever come to knowing truth is when we are witness to paradox.

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InvisibleCitizen X
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Northerner]
    #24593949 - 08/31/17 05:45 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Jumping in so I can watch this later :happyheart:


--------------------


Rate me here

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Invisiblehowsyournaggerdoin
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Northerner]
    #24607754 - 09/06/17 04:30 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Should probably test if your blotters really contain LSD

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InvisibleShroomway
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
    #24607827 - 09/06/17 06:01 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

One of the problems in this kind of discusions is that you never know when you were trying pure or impure LSD. You might as well had a very good experience on impure LSD and think you had very pure stuff that time... No way of telling IMO. Unless you let a lab test it

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OfflineEclipse3130
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Shroomway]
    #24607871 - 09/06/17 06:39 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Based on my experience LSD is LSD. I've tried countless different batches and unless you're taking the exact micrograms for micrograms dosages between them(you wouldn't know unless you made it yourself) you will not be able to tell the difference, even then, what you think may be pure or dirty LSD is all based on your reaction to the experience.

But what adds even more unique variability is set and setting. Kind of like how in one scenario you can have the "strongest" trip of your life off 1 tab, that had no comparison to your 2 or 3 tab trips. It's all subjective.

There is no such thing as identical experiences, there is an infinite amount of experience to be had. And LSD and the psychedelic experience itself is so widely variable (meaning literally anything can happen) how would you ever be able to pin point purity or impurity, you wouldn't, especially because the impurities of LSD are known to not be psychologically active.

LSD has a wide arrange of effects including vasoconstriction and body tension/tremors.

Not 1 trip will be the same as the next

Psychedelic experience is highly variable and there's no such thing as dirty acid. 100ug of 99% pure will have the exact same potency as 200ug of 50% pure

The only thing that makes a pure LSD crystal different from impure is its ability to absorb, reflect and radiate the energies and intentions of its creator this may be reflected through realizations or conscious advancement within the trip but no direct physical effect change

LSD purity is a myth, and is widely accepted and known amongst shroomery users.

LSD is LSD the same way THC is THC


--------------------
"In The Material World One seeks retirement and grows Old
In The Magical World One seeks Enlightenment and grows Wiser
In The Miraculous World One seeks nothing and grows Lighter
As we all tread the Homeward Path we will explore many Realms
And one day... we will all Realize that all experiences are Simply
Different ways in which The
All-That Is
Perceives Itself"

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Invisiblehowsyournaggerdoin
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Shroomway]
    #24607883 - 09/06/17 06:49 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Shroomway said:
One of the problems in this kind of discusions is that you never know when you were trying pure or impure LSD. You might as well had a very good experience on impure LSD and think you had very pure stuff that time... No way of telling IMO. Unless you let a lab test it




It doesnt matter how pure the LSD is since all impurities are inactive at those low doses. The only thing that matters is how much active LSD is on your blotter.

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OfflinePsycstasy
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: howsyournaggerdoin]
    #24608341 - 09/06/17 10:14 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

If I'm not mistaken. I believe d-isomer LSD is the only psychoactive portion, however, if the chemist does not perform and isolation/clean up To have a finished product of pure D isomer. The L-isomer, being psycho- inactive, is apparently active in certain tissues within the body which are receptive to its agonism, leading to the host of anecdotal bodily responses...however, I am sure d-LSD has direct effect on NE, thus even a pure isolated d-isomer batch will agonise NE,  causing the adrenal responses in the body, and of course, set and setting, if one is mentally tense and anxious during the trip, this will result in a further exacerbation of NE symptoms...never the less, I believe that starting with a pure d -isomer sample versus a racemic sample would put the user at a higher beginning likihood of experiencing unwanted NE effects before set, setting, anxiety levels, drug interactions, trip content and misc things plays a part in the amount of NE related effects felt.

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OfflineSpace Monkey
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Eclipse3130]
    #24609956 - 09/06/17 08:40 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Eclipse3130 said:
LSD is LSD the same way THC is THC




But THC's psychoactive effect is influenced by many otherwise inactive compounds which never manifest their own psychoactivity at any dose until combined with THC, just the most well known of which is CBD.

LSD impurities are similar in structure to LSD itself.

Like many cannabinoids such as CBD, these ergolines might just be active as entourage compounds in a similar dosage range as LSD, though they may manifest no psychoactivity at all when taken on their own at any dose.

This is just to say, THC is definitely not just THC, and this is well understood and accepted. I see no logical reason for one to deny that certain ergolines might just be active as entourage compounds and nothing more, as CBD is psychoactive as an entourage compound and nothing more.

If it's only active as entourage compound, of course it will not be active on its own! The reason for denying the hypothesis is immediately fallacious! And of course LSD's cognitive effects might cause one not to notice it consistently, since even the same batches fluctuate in effect - that's just what psychedelics are like, no experience is identical. But that would just mean that even if impurity did have an effect, it would be difficult to grasp that it was doing so!

So, I defer to the guys that did it more than anyone else and could evaluate best; the underground chemists themselves. Nick Sand explicitly said in an interview at a festival on youtube that he found iso-LSD affected his trips. Other chemists said the same. I just think it's an interesting and plausible hypothesis which suggests that entourage chemicals might exist that are active in the microgram range; certain ergolines, in conjunction with full on psychedelic ergolines.

I think it's a theory worth testing, if that were possible. I don't see an a priori logical problem that would make this hypothesis not worth attempted testing. It certainly does not seem like a "far out" hypothesis. It's not like "praying to the crystal effects its vibration" or anything... just: Hey, things like iso-LSD might be ug range entourage compounds!

Edited by Space Monkey (09/06/17 08:48 PM)

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OfflineAuroraBorealis88
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
    #24609980 - 09/06/17 08:51 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Space Monkey said:
Quote:

Eclipse3130 said:
LSD is LSD the same way THC is THC




But THC's psychoactive effect is influenced by many otherwise inactive compounds which never manifest their own psychoactivity at any dose until combined with THC, just the most well known of which is CBD.





Not to mention cannabis plant material with low amounts of THC feels absolutely nothing like cannabis with high amounts of THC. Even if you take massive doses of the weak stuff and low doses of the strong stuff they never quite compare.


For the sake of the argument let us assume you have two different kinds of plant material with no other cannabinoids in it other than 9-Delta-THC and you rolled them each into joints of equal amounts. Let's imagine one of them is 10% THC and the other is 20% THC. If you smoked 2 of the 10% ones would you get the same high as you would from just smoking one joint of the 20%? Because I would argue that you wouldn't.

So I think the notion that a bunch of weak acid equalling a normal or even a low amount of highly pure acid to be crap logic. There isn't a single drug that works that way.

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Invisiblehowsyournaggerdoin
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
    #24610657 - 09/07/17 02:16 AM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

Psycstasy said:
If I'm not mistaken. I believe d-isomer LSD is the only psychoactive portion, however, if the chemist does not perform and isolation/clean up To have a finished product of pure D isomer. The L-isomer, being psycho- inactive, is apparently active in certain tissues within the body which are receptive to its agonism, leading to the host of anecdotal bodily responses...however, I am sure d-LSD has direct effect on NE, thus even a pure isolated d-isomer batch will agonise NE,  causing the adrenal responses in the body, and of course, set and setting, if one is mentally tense and anxious during the trip, this will result in a further exacerbation of NE symptoms...never the less, I believe that starting with a pure d -isomer sample versus a racemic sample would put the user at a higher beginning likihood of experiencing unwanted NE effects before set, setting, anxiety levels, drug interactions, trip content and misc things plays a part in the amount of NE related effects felt.




Link ?

Quote:

Space Monkey said:
Quote:

Eclipse3130 said:
LSD is LSD the same way THC is THC




But THC's psychoactive effect is influenced by many otherwise inactive compounds which never manifest their own psychoactivity at any dose until combined with THC, just the most well known of which is CBD.

LSD impurities are similar in structure to LSD itself.

Like many cannabinoids such as CBD, these ergolines might just be active as entourage compounds in a similar dosage range as LSD, though they may manifest no psychoactivity at all when taken on their own at any dose.

This is just to say, THC is definitely not just THC, and this is well understood and accepted. I see no logical reason for one to deny that certain ergolines might just be active as entourage compounds and nothing more, as CBD is psychoactive as an entourage compound and nothing more.

If it's only active as entourage compound, of course it will not be active on its own! The reason for denying the hypothesis is immediately fallacious! And of course LSD's cognitive effects might cause one not to notice it consistently, since even the same batches fluctuate in effect - that's just what psychedelics are like, no experience is identical. But that would just mean that even if impurity did have an effect, it would be difficult to grasp that it was doing so!

So, I defer to the guys that did it more than anyone else and could evaluate best; the underground chemists themselves. Nick Sand explicitly said in an interview at a festival on youtube that he found iso-LSD affected his trips. Other chemists said the same. I just think it's an interesting and plausible hypothesis which suggests that entourage chemicals might exist that are active in the microgram range; certain ergolines, in conjunction with full on psychedelic ergolines.

I think it's a theory worth testing, if that were possible. I don't see an a priori logical problem that would make this hypothesis not worth attempted testing. It certainly does not seem like a "far out" hypothesis. It's not like "praying to the crystal effects its vibration" or anything... just: Hey, things like iso-LSD might be ug range entourage compounds!




LSD is pretty well studied. If any of the impurities were active youd find mentions of it in the literature.

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OfflineTempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
    #24611669 - 09/07/17 02:01 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Wouldn't it be great for you if the world worked that way? You could state your opinion like fact and declare that it's not up for debate. Wow, that's neat.


--------------------

“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”

Edited by TempestDnB (09/07/17 02:06 PM)

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OfflineTempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: TempestDnB]
    #24611676 - 09/07/17 02:05 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

If the purity is lower, that means less LSD, and that would most certainly affect the trip. Duh, solved your problem.


--------------------

“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”

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OfflineTempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: Space Monkey]
    #24611757 - 09/07/17 02:50 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

I'm reading through this and if I read "these three chemists" one more time.. I'll make a drinking game out of it. I don't really give a fuck what those three chemists thought, because they are human and just as susceptible to non sense as any of us, like believing you can instill your intentions into the crystals you're making. So many myths, but I guess they're around because they add a bit of magic or mystery to the whole thing. Plus marketing and greed. Sorry about the tone of his post. I'm just getting annoyed reading it.


--------------------

“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”

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OfflineTempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: P.Zappatecorum]
    #24611779 - 09/07/17 02:57 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Quote:

P.Zappatecorum said:
Also, taking LSD frequently leads to delusional thinking. When I'm dosing frequently I start getting into some pretty silly shit, seeing connections that aren't there, thinking things are more significant than they are etc. So I don't necessarily trust anything somebody taking huge amounts of psychedelics is saying. That's my problem with McKenna. He was really smart and had a lot of brilliant ideas, but he also spouted a whole lot of bullshit. Obsessing over minutuea and thinking you can sense these subtle differences is pretty classic psychedelic mania, so I'm skeptical. If they're talking about a few micrograms of impurities dramatically affecting the trip then I call bullshit. We can agree to disagree. :shrug:

I said in my first post that "other chemicals" can influence the trip, I do think that the secondary alkaloids in cactus and mushrooms for instance, do marginally effect the trip, but not consistently and not super dramatically, such that it may be just a vague impression that "on average" ovoids vs. cubensis or peyote vs. bridgesii feel different, but you might not be able to tell which you got in a blind taste test.

LSD impurities may do the same, but they have to be there in sufficient quanitities to be medically relevant. If you're saying there's a noticeable difference between say 10mcg and 30mcg of impurities in a dose, I think you're basically pushing homeopathics. LSD itself is hardly noticeable at levels that low, and these impurities are not thought to be active on their own, so that would have to be an insane amount of synergy to make them pharmalogically significant at that low of a dose. 

What levels of impurities are these guys saying are significant? Do they ever mention quantities? I'm just looking at this rationally and from a pharmacological standpoint. It makes no sense to me.




This post is on point. This is pretty much my view. Shulgin also tried these impurities at the mg level and noticed no effects. So at the ug level I imagine that there would also be no effects, regardless of whether or not they were taken with LSD. Sorry for all of the posts.


--------------------

“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”

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OfflineTempestDnB
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Re: LSD purity and psychoactive effect (LSD chemist Nick Sand interview) [Re: AuroraBorealis88]
    #24611896 - 09/07/17 03:50 PM (6 years, 6 months ago)

Aurora, LSD is not THC, they do not behave the same way pharmacokinetically, so I would have to say that your logic is not solid, and therefore "crap logic" as you call it.

Not a single drug that works that way? Pfffft. So if I do some cocaine that is cut 50/50 and some pure cocaine, you're telling me that if I do some of the pure stuff and double the weight of that of the cut stuff, they won't affect me in the same way?


--------------------

“How happy is the blameless vestal’s lot! The world forgetting, by the world forgot. Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind! Each pray’r accepted, and each wish resign’d”

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