Quote:

---

koods said:
OP, the real question you should be asking yourself is why hasn't the Arab world innovated anything useful for the past 1000 years?

Out of nearly 1000 Nobel prizes awarded in the sciences, less than 5 have been awarded to people living in arab countries.

Maybe you should worry about what's going on where you are and less about the innovations of a gender your culture systematically oppresses.

---

Quote:

---

lillFish said:
I'm a female. I like to fix things and build things. I've rebuilt an engine by myself, installed it, and even wrestled the transmission up in place by myself too. I know how to frame a wall and much more. I played with G.I. Joes and Ninja Turtles growing up. Maybe a barbie so the GI could have a girlfriend, but I didn't give a shit about girly things. I have an innovative mind as well.

To say that women aren't innovative is ignorant. Not all men are innovative or aggressive. I think it just comes down to your personality. There are women out there that are more aggressive than some men.

---

My gf is that way. She used to do wood carving (and was really fucking good at it) before her carpal tunnel got too bad and can fix pretty much anything she puts her mind to. Her guy friends call her for advice on car problems.

She grew up with 2 brothers too so that may have largely influenced it. Though she knows more about mechanics than either of them.


I prefered dragon ball z action figures myself.
In the good old days I'd play football with the guys. We'd play that and dodgeball when I was in JROTC. Wasn't flag football, was wrap up, where you literally have to grab someone. Of course when your running it would turn into a tackle often enough. Sargent Dick (yes he actually was called Sgt Dick) wrapped me up once and fell over on me. Almost 300lbs like 6'6" of dude driving my face into the dirt. Didn't get hurt, my forehead broke my fall

Our drill instructor got mad at him and made him do push ups for the rest of the game and tried to make us go to two hand touch. Me and like the 3 other girls in the platoon convinced him that it didn't happen all that often (tho it kinda did) and eventually got him to let us go back to wrap up. That too is part of that old way of thought. That women should be protected. I can't blame our instructor though. He joined the military and special forces back when women weren't really allowed in the military. Outside of the medical stations. Very different way of life it was, only 40-50 years ago.



Health issues keep me from doing that stuff now and it sucks. I've spent the last few years trying to accept the fact that I can't compete with casual women, let alone the hardcore dudes. It's strange and tough to feel emasculated as a female. Few people seem to understand.
But in some ways I do think it would be harder for a man. I can talk about it with some people. I dunno how a man could deal with it, I feel there would be a real fear of judgment. A "well you deserve it" kind of thing.

Quote:

---

koods said:

Quote:

---

imachavel said:

Quote:

---

oontribe said:
I have studied ancient egyptian history and i have read alot about history in general (mostly robert greene's books, yea a shitty author but anyways...) and most of people in those fields that i mentioned above were dominated by men.

I am not saying that women didn't have any rule in society whatsoever, they were the ones responsible for raising children and taking care of the house, but in the other fields men were waaay more influential than women.

---

Wasn't that a long time ago?

---

Egypt stopped being innovative 4000 years ago, right about the time the Jews left.

---

haha hey now cmon

Quote:

---

CookieCrumbs said:
Well are they "wired differently" because society fosters those feelings in them? Or are they "wired differently" because they are born with those traits?


I think I would be a very different person if I didn't grow up with my brothers. That's partly why I started digging into all of this. They and the friends I made when I was very young, I think, instilled a very masculine mindset within me. I got baby dolls and barbies and dresses and shit when I was very young, like 2 or 3, and I played with them. But at some point they became very... unappealing for me. At a young age, like preschool/kindergarten age. It's very hard to dig out memories and mindsets from over 20 some years ago but I do remember being bullied relentlessly for, among other things, "being such a girl." I remember that exact phrase "you're such a girl" being said to me as young as 3 or 4.

I stove to be like my peers, what I thought they wanted of me, especially because my femininity was viewed as a weakness. That identity crisis carried well over into my teens and I eventually came to accept and embrace my femininity... but I'm not very feminine. That's just not who I am. And who I am has been shaped across countless events for near 30 years but it comes back to those preschool/early elementary school years when my micro society showed me what was expected of me and what I should strive for... in the years when every human being is most susceptible to social programming.


If I had not had my brothers, if I had had a sister and more girl friends... I think I would be a very different person.
Honestly the only thing I remember about one of my few early childhood friends, the neighbor girl, was her "feeding the baby" and dumping a bucket of sand into my open mouth. That and playing "house" with my little brother is probably the only strongly 'girl' traits I had going into elementary school. Me and the neighbor girl played power rangers as often as not. I was always the yellow ranger, because I hated pink.

I wanted to be the blue ranger though. Blue being my favorite color. But I couldn't because he was a guy.


Now think about that... all of that could be considered role models. Even as a girl that tried to be up with the boys I still accepted that I could only be like a girl.




In the next generation or two though I think we will see major shifts in professions. After all the most consequential people in science and medicine right now are still from the prior generation, people in their 40s and 50s.
We will likely see more girls going to college for science and engineering (it has been on a steady uptick afterall) and we will likely see more guys going to college (or equvilant) for nursing and child care.


It goes both ways really. The social expectations. Alot of parents wouldn't feel particularly good about dropping their young child off at a day care that is exclusively ran by men. They are viewed as more irresponsible, more absent minded, and more emotionally detached. Not great traits for childcare. And why are they normally such? Because they were shaped their whole life to be MEN and not WOMEN.
Likewise women are carefully guided away from science and mathematics. The sharpest people I'd ever had in any of my math or science classes in college were girls. And their major was all in medicine, mostly nursing, and they were taking the class as an electoral requirement. It's not that they can't grasp these things, it's that they've been told, explicitly and subtly through society, that they will not excel in other fields. That they are best fitted to care taking.

And very few female MDs work in hospitals compared to men. But if you go to children's hospitals and assisted living facilities almost all the MDs are female. And I think there's this idea that women can't handle blood and guts and the stress of a hospital. Let me tell you that nursing homes and children's hospitals are not any less emotionally taxing. They often are more so in the former because they're severely understaffed.

And there's more things that go into that. Like maybe women are more likely to seek out those particular facilities because of empathy and sympathy. There is still this very VERY old social construct that makes women think "I want to help people" and men think "I want to be a provider that makes lots of money." Even though in the last 40 years we have very much moved away from the nuclear family and why those traits were so desired.



Things are changing. Things are changing from what they have been for thousands of years. But you simply cannot undo centuries of social and cultural programming within a single generation. "You're free now you can do whatever you want. Oh by the way you should tell your children this and also not teach them all the little social ideas you've grown up with your whole life." shit doesn't work liek that.

---

Awesome answer. I feel really enlightened after reading this.

OP is kind of dragging on himself isn't he in terms of what he is saying. Your answer really cleared a lot up for me though thanks

Quote:

---

CookieCrumbs said:

Quote:

---

lillFish said:
I'm a female. I like to fix things and build things. I've rebuilt an engine by myself, installed it, and even wrestled the transmission up in place by myself too. I know how to frame a wall and much more. I played with G.I. Joes and Ninja Turtles growing up. Maybe a barbie so the GI could have a girlfriend, but I didn't give a shit about girly things. I have an innovative mind as well.

To say that women aren't innovative is ignorant. Not all men are innovative or aggressive. I think it just comes down to your personality. There are women out there that are more aggressive than some men.

---

My gf is that way. She used to do wood carving (and was really fucking good at it) before her carpal tunnel got too bad and can fix pretty much anything she puts her mind to. Her guy friends call her for advice on car problems.

She grew up with 2 brothers too so that may have largely influenced it. Though she knows more about mechanics than either of them.


I prefered dragon ball z action figures myself.
In the good old days I'd play football with the guys. We'd play that and dodgeball when I was in JROTC. Wasn't flag football, was wrap up, where you literally have to grab someone. Of course when your running it would turn into a tackle often enough. Sargent Dick (yes he actually was called Sgt Dick) wrapped me up once and fell over on me. Almost 300lbs like 6'6" of dude driving my face into the dirt. Didn't get hurt, my forehead broke my fall

Our drill instructor got mad at him and made him do push ups for the rest of the game and tried to make us go to two hand touch. Me and like the 3 other girls in the platoon convinced him that it didn't happen all that often (tho it kinda did) and eventually got him to let us go back to wrap up. That too is part of that old way of thought. That women should be protected. I can't blame our instructor though. He joined the military and special forces back when women weren't really allowed in the military. Outside of the medical stations. Very different way of life it was, only 40-50 years ago.



Health issues keep me from doing that stuff now and it sucks. I've spent the last few years trying to accept the fact that I can't compete with casual women, let alone the hardcore dudes. It's strange and tough to feel emasculated as a female. Few people seem to understand.
But in some ways I do think it would be harder for a man. I can talk about it with some people. I dunno how a man could deal with it, I feel there would be a real fear of judgment. A "well you deserve it" kind of thing.

---

Quote:

---

oontribe said:
@cookie sorry to disappoint you, but art and music were men dominated feilds, yes there were a FEW innovative female musicians but can't be compared to the numbers of men, a simple search in wikipedia about most of the music genres will show you what i am talking about.
And as i said before in my third world country women can study engineering and her family will support her and society ain't gonna look down on her, yet most of the women won't seem this path and they are SATISFIED with their feminine rules that fits their biological traits.
And it's the yin and yang thing, there are FEW womem who are innovative and not all the women are same but they are FEW.
And i believe that women have the freedom to choose whatever bath they want.

---

Quote:

---

CookieCrumbs said:
People should be supported for who they are as an individual. Not for who we think they are or should be.

People who are afraid of getting hurt, or who aren't physically very tough, are often strong in other ways. In part our strict definitions and stereotypes is what pushes people into them. And makes them feel bad when they don't live up to it.


Another note, I've seen alot more dudes wearing pink. And not gay or feminine dudes. It's cool. Right now it's more often a statement of security and self assurance but in time I think more dudes will be okay with wearing pink or having flowers and shit... Just cuz they like pink and flowers and shit.

We are all progressing together.
The only ones holding us back are the ones who are afraid. The ones that think everything will fall apart if we don't all "act normal."

---

My favourite shirt is pink.

It used to be a red Budweiser shitt, but it's pink now and the logo is barely there. Still rock it though.

I mean.. it's not pink it's salmon!

Quote:

---

koods said:
Wonderful standards. "We're not as bad as the worst places on earth for women."

If only that were true.

BBC: Egypt is now the worst country for women's rights in the Arab world, according to a poll of gender experts.


I suspect you don't know many innovative women there because the innovative women innovated a way to get out of living in a repressive shithole.

---

Yes we are not as bad as the worest places on earth for women...i don't see anything wrong with this and it's a fact!
And again i didn't say that i am living in a good place as i have mentioned before, it's fucked up place with the exception of south sinai.

And the bbc poll is bullshit, in saudi arabia, yemen, somalia women are obliged to wear hijab, they are not allowed to drive, they can't even take a taxi or go to many places without a male companion and more stuff like this.

In egypt (at least in cairo and alexanderia, the most populated cities in egypt) women do whatever the fuck they want, they can go to bars alone they can choose their career, they are well educated and their families would spend thousands on their education, some women are ministers and holds high positions and they can be the president of the country too. Not a big difference from the western world. Yet according to the bbc poll saudi arabia and the other countries that i have mentioned are more advanced when it comes to women's rights .

I haven't even met innovative men and i bet most of us in here don't know any.

Quote:

---

CookieCrumbs said:

Quote:

---

oontribe said:
@cookie sorry to disappoint you, but art and music were men dominated feilds, yes there were a FEW innovative female musicians but can't be compared to the numbers of men, a simple search in wikipedia about most of the music genres will show you what i am talking about.
And as i said before in my third world country women can study engineering and her family will support her and society ain't gonna look down on her, yet most of the women won't seem this path and they are SATISFIED with their feminine rules that fits their biological traits.
And it's the yin and yang thing, there are FEW womem who are innovative and not all the women are same but they are FEW.
And i believe that women have the freedom to choose whatever bath they want.

---

Completely missing my point. And I don't have time to elaborate it. You won't be recognized as an innovator if society doesn't want to recognize you as an innovator.

I think your culture has seriously narrowed your view on this. And I feel bad for it man. That's the only thing I'm disappointed about. That this shit is still going on.

---

Again in my fucked up society they would accept women as innovators but apparently most of women aren't interested! What about your developed society? They don't accept women as innovators but we do!!!

And you really don't know much about me to say that i am conditioned by my society, as i have told you before i am an avid reader, i was borned as a muslim but now i believe in totally different thing and i am not enjoying living in my country, even in looks i am different i have tattoos all over my body of conterversial drawings which they are both things that totally goes against our social norms.

as i said (how many times did i say in this thread: as i said/mentioned before ) and as banana.man said and many other posters, women are wired to other things than being innovative, even if society accept them and gave them the freedom and chance to be innovative.

And again as i have said before!! Its like the yin yang not all women aren't innovative but we are talking about the MAJORITY and throughout history till our present day where they are being accepted by society and have more chances and freedom.

And banana.man i have to disagree with you that islam is the problem of the middle east as the Muslims lived in what is called the golden age before and the arabian countries were the leaders of this world back then.

The church was killing and prosecuting scientists back then but i wouldn't say that Christianity was the problem, the majority of the weatern countries are still christians.

We are suffering from corruption, selfishness and ego driven agendas of few fucked people whom are now in a powerful positions, and you can also add the western influence to keep this area as fucked up as they can so they can be always more powerful.

Quote:

---

The church was killing and prosecuting scientists back then but i wouldn't say that Christianity was the problem, the majority of the weatern countries are still christians.

---

Quote:

---

Religion is nothing but a tool for the corrupt.

---

Quote:

---

MOST of women (at least in my country) can have a bachelor degree in any field just like men, but usually after graduating they HAPPILY choose to get married and raise a child instead of pursuing a career or making more studies. Only FEW can do both.

---

Quote:

---

oontribe said:
...

Quote:

---

Tantrika said:

Quote:

---

oontribe said:
I was saying that you don't need ALOT of time to evolve and be in a better place.

She was saying that women needs more than a 50 years to be as equally innovative as men!

---

but they are nations full of men
if men are much more innovative than women
then they should be able to do it in a fraction of the time


the Viet Cong didn't make excuses, they got results
and look at how prosperous and magnificent Vietnam is now
they even aim to become a developed nation in a few more years

maybe some nations are just more passive than others

---

Germany was built mostly by women because they have lost alot of men and even teen agers in the war.

---

But if Germany can do it mostly with women
what makes the inhabitants of other countries less capable than German women?

If religion and societal values are not at fault for women showing up in less areas of innovation than men
then religion and societal values can be no excuse for failing to catch up to more developed nations
whatever excuse may be made about how problems with society are holding such countries back
are not really valid, unless they are valid in both respective contexts