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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him??
    #2433425 - 03/15/04 01:16 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

its the judges..stupid...

if kerry isnt the best POTUS in the world..then scalia is by far the worst chief justice in the world...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2433720 - 03/15/04 03:08 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

The court rejected an absurd and radical assault on separation of church and state by refusing to require the state of Washington to pay for the college training of ministers.





Why not? Should the state of Washington have to pay for the college training of artists, film students, parks and recreations students, or philosophy students?

Doesn't look like separation of church and state to me when secular issues get special treatment over religion based issues.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2433852 - 03/15/04 04:42 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Very good.

If the government will pay for one it should pay for all.

However, it should be (and hopefully someday will return to) the government paying for none.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2433857 - 03/15/04 04:49 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
its the judges..stupid...

if kerry isnt the best POTUS in the world..then scalia is by far the worst chief justice in the world...



We need judges that will make their decisions based strictly on the constitution, not ideology of party. I doubt you'd like that though as most government programs would not be allowed.


Also, as an atheist who believes there should be a "seperation of church and state", I've yet to come across one in the constitution or bill or rights. Perhaps you could point it out to me?


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2433892 - 03/15/04 05:31 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Annapurna1 said:
its the judges..stupid...

if kerry isnt the best POTUS in the world..then scalia is by far the worst chief justice in the world...



We need judges that will make their decisions based strictly on the constitution, not ideology of party. I doubt you'd like that though as most government programs would not be allowed.



I'd accept that if they truly did uphold the Constitution, but you know as well as I do that any of Bush's appointees will be at least as partisan as Kerry's, if not more so(Kerry will have a Republican congress to deal with, so he can't get away with appointing judges that are too liberal).

Quote:

Also, as an atheist who believes there should be a "seperation of church and state", I've yet to come across one in the constitution or bill or rights. Perhaps you could point it out to me?



Thomas Jefferson said that the establishment clause and free exercise clause combine to form a "wall of separation" between church and state. Just because that exact phrase isn't used in the Bill of Rights doesn't mean the concept isn't there.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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InvisibleLe_Canard
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2433935 - 03/15/04 07:07 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

silversoul7 said:

Thomas Jefferson said that the establishment clause and free exercise clause combine to form a "wall of separation" between church and state. Just because that exact phrase isn't used in the Bill of Rights doesn't mean the concept isn't there.




Yes, I would think that the phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." would make that clear, but like anything, it's open to different interpretations.


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2434390 - 03/15/04 11:20 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I would only support that if every single class could be completed by passing a $10 test. That way people could still educate themselves for free.

Currently the CLEP tests are only available for a small minority of courses.


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InvisibleAnnapurna1
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2434656 - 03/15/04 12:20 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

We need judges that will make their decisions based strictly on the constitution, not ideology of party.




:lol: like as if scalia..heading a SCOTUS full of his toady's..wont vote for the neocons..because its "unconstitutional"...


--------------------


"anchor blocks counteract the process of pontiprobation..while omalean globes regulize the pressure"...


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2435432 - 03/15/04 04:02 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Where did you see me say that any judge Bush nominates would not be partisan?

Concepts don't count in law. Words do. Otherwise there would be no need to amend laws that don't live up to the hype.

Jefferson can say anything he likes but as anyone who can read can see, the only mention of religion is that Congress can not form nor stop any religion. ie: no official religion.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2435435 - 03/15/04 04:02 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Yes, I would think that the phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." would make that clear



Think again.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2435443 - 03/15/04 04:04 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Education should not be free. The government has no business paying for it. At least not the feds.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Annapurna1]
    #2435456 - 03/15/04 04:05 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Laugh away. I didn't say nor imply any choice Bush made would be unbiased. Go read it again without the chip on your shoulder.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2435652 - 03/15/04 04:50 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Where did you see me say that any judge Bush nominates would not be partisan?



Where did you see me say that you said that?

Quote:

Concepts don't count in law. Words do. Otherwise there would be no need to amend laws that don't live up to the hype.

Jefferson can say anything he likes but as anyone who can read can see, the only mention of religion is that Congress can not form nor stop any religion. ie: no official religion.



You're making a bigger deal out of this than you really need to. "Separation of Church and State" basically means the same thing as the Establishment Clause. Jefferson was merely clarifying what it meant.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2435688 - 03/15/04 05:03 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

You're making a bigger deal out of this than you really need to.



Yeah... right.    :lol:


Quote:

"Separation of Church and State" basically means the same thing as the Establishment Clause.



Bullshit. It may be what Jefferson meant, but that's not what it has become.


Quote:

Jefferson was merely clarifying what it meant. 



Right. It's a very clear sentence which has no need of elaboration.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2435708 - 03/15/04 05:09 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Right. It's a very clear sentence which has no need of elaboration.



"Congress shall make no law respecting a religion nor prohibiting the free exercise thereof."

I could see how there might be some ambiguity as to what is meant by the word "respecting."


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2435729 - 03/15/04 05:15 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

None at all.

Respecting = favoring.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2435775 - 03/15/04 05:27 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Well ya, but there's lots of ways one could interpret that. For example, is it favoring a religion if you have a manger scene on public property during Christmas? I'd say so, but there are plenty who would disagree.

Anyway, when I hear the phrase "separation of church and state," I see that as meaning that the state should not meddle with matters of religion, and vice versa, which seems to be pretty much what the Establishment and Free Exercise Clause say anyway.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2435794 - 03/15/04 05:33 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

It's favoring unless you allow all, or none. Nothing ambiguous there at all.


Quote:

Anyway, when I hear the phrase "separation of church and state," I see that as meaning that the state should not meddle with matters of religion, and vice versa, which seems to be pretty much what the Establishment and Free Exercise Clause say anyway.



When I read the constitutions clear and unambiguous wording it's easy to see the gov may not favor one religon over another.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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InvisibleEvolving
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2435805 - 03/15/04 05:36 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Shouldn't the state also refrain from promoting atheism or secular humanism? Should the state take money from some to fund actions which those people find immoral (such as abortion, or to promote homosexual 'artwork' or protected pre-marital sex as opposed to abstinence)?


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Invisiblesilversoul7
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Evolving]
    #2435861 - 03/15/04 05:57 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Evolving said:
Shouldn't the state also refrain from promoting atheism or secular humanism? Should the state take money from some to fund actions which those people find immoral (such as abortion, or to promote homosexual 'artwork' or protected pre-marital sex as opposed to abstinence)?



I don't know if I'd really consider those to be a religions(I haven't seen an instance of the government supporting atheism anyway). I agree that abortion should not be government-funded, nor should artwork in general. As for birth control in sex education, I've never heard of any school actually promoting pre-marital sex in their sex-ed program. At least when I went through the whole sex-ed thing(granted, I did go to a private school), they basically said something along the lines of "Abstinence is the best form of birth control, but if you do choose to have pre-marital sex, you should wear a condom to protect yourself and your partner." It's not promoting pre-marital sex, just like the harm-reduction approach to drugs isn't actually promoting drugs, but rather teaching those who do drugs how to be safer.


--------------------


"It is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong."--Voltaire


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Offlinezappaisgod
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: silversoul7]
    #2436016 - 03/15/04 06:37 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Here's a fun one for you all. Churches, temples, and mosques are exempt from property taxes. What the fuck is that. Since their basic excuse for existing is as modern shamans, and psychologists, psychotherapists and their ilk pay property tax on their offices, how is that NOT a state sponsored endorsement of religion. What free services do Atheists get (I will cop to Atheism being a religion for legal purposes)


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: zappaisgod]
    #2436039 - 03/15/04 06:44 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

yeah. churches shouldn't get any special treatment.


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: ]
    #2436082 - 03/15/04 06:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Amen to that brother!


--------------------
To call humans 'rational beings' does injustice to the term, 'rational.'  Humans are capable of rational thought, but it is not their essence.  Humans are animals, beasts with complex brains.  Humans, more often than not, utilize their cerebrum to rationalize what their primal instincts, their preconceived notions, and their emotional desires have presented as goals - humans are rationalizing beings.


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2436586 - 03/15/04 08:51 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Education should not be free. The government has no business paying for it. At least not the feds.




They have no business charging for it if someone does it themselves without the aid of an institution. They have a responsability to accredit someone for the knowledge that they have no matter by what means it was achieved.


Requiring someone to take a class before they are allowed to recieve credit for knowledge they already have makes the higher education system a monopoly.


The way it is set up now, you must take a $400 - $800 class to recieve credit for the class. You don't have the option to just buy the book and teach yourself for $50.


There are a very few exceptions. (CLEP)


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2436622 - 03/15/04 08:58 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Let the states do it. It is not something the feds should be involved in.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2436663 - 03/15/04 09:08 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I'd be alright with that.

Education is an investment that pays off. If your citizens are better educated, they're going to bring in more money to the state, and attract more businesses.


I don't think any taxes should be paid to the federal government. All taxes should be paid to the State, and the federal government would have to collect taxes from the state governments.




Or something like that. :yesnod:


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2436688 - 03/15/04 09:12 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

I'd be alright with that.



Good.


Quote:

Education is an investment that pays off. If your citizens are better educated, they're going to bring in more money to the state, and attract more businesses.



I agree.


Quote:

I don't think any taxes should be paid to the federal government. All taxes should be paid to the State, and the federal government would have to collect taxes from the state governments.



That doesn't sound any better to me.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2436703 - 03/15/04 09:15 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

STFU! U R A NEOCON!


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2436715 - 03/15/04 09:17 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

Baby_Hitler said:
STFU! U R A NEOCON!


:shocked:


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2436735 - 03/15/04 09:21 PM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

That doesn't sound any better to me.




States shouldn't be recieving any funding from the feds. That way there's nothing to withold from them if they don't make laws that make the feds happy.


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2438015 - 03/16/04 04:10 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

I still agree, but why should money flow from either to the other? There are more costs involved that way.


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You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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OfflineBaby_Hitler
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2438021 - 03/16/04 04:13 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

It may be another one of those ideas that look good on roling paper, but in reality don't smoke very good.


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Baby_Hitler]
    #2438023 - 03/16/04 04:15 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

It may be.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: luvdemshrooms]
    #2438075 - 03/16/04 05:08 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Quote:

luvdemshrooms said:
Quote:

Yes, I would think that the phrase "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion..." would make that clear



Think again.




I have, believe me. :frown:


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Invisibleluvdemshrooms
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Re: john kerry is a twit..so why should i vote for him?? [Re: Le_Canard]
    #2438082 - 03/16/04 05:14 AM (16 years, 7 months ago)

Well, keep trying. There's always hope.


--------------------
You cannot legislate the poor into prosperity by legislating the wealthy out of prosperity. What one person receives without working for another person must work for without receiving. The government cannot give to anybody anything that the government does not first take from somebody else. When half of the people get the idea that they do not have to work because the other half is going to take care of them and when the other half gets the idea that it does no good to work because somebody else is going to get what they work for that my dear friend is the beginning of the end of any nation. You cannot multiply wealth by dividing it. ~ Adrian Rogers


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