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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24333634 - 05/19/17 07:38 PM (4 months, 19 hours ago)

Forced?  Do you not live in a nation with the 13th amendment?

The reality is that Americans are spoiled.  Everyone thinks he/she is a special little snowflake who deserves a prime job.  They aren't and they don't.  If you want to excel at something, work your fucking ass off to be the best at it.  If you do that, there will be plenty of opportunities to not only do what you want to do, but be well-compensated for it.

Talent and hard work are always in demand, and the supply is woefully limited. 

I know servers who love what they do and make $200 in tips in a 4 hour shift.  When I ask what they do, they tell me they are servers.  I know several servers who don't make anywhere near that.  When I ask what they do, they say, "I am trying to get into XXX but I'm waitressing now."  The difference between the two groups is that the former are fully engaged in what they do and are rewarded for it.


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Offlineballsalsa
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24333648 - 05/19/17 07:42 PM (4 months, 19 hours ago)

forced was probably the wrong word.  Though you have to admit that our society strongly encourages us to have a job.
My point still stands.  I don't think most people are resentful of work itself.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24333651 - 05/19/17 07:44 PM (4 months, 19 hours ago)

Do you believe that employees who hate their job are likely to be effective at it?


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24333690 - 05/19/17 07:57 PM (4 months, 19 hours ago)

what do you mean by likely?
like a 51% chance?
probably, though it would certainly depend on the job.
you don't have to like something to be good at it.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24333702 - 05/19/17 08:00 PM (4 months, 19 hours ago)

You don't have to, but it's far less common to be good at something you hate doing.


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OfflineFalcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24333800 - 05/19/17 08:34 PM (4 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Since Wal-Mart has been brought up, let's look at how much the owners really make compared to employees.  Last year, the owners made about 7 billion.  If we divided that among the 2.3 million employees, that comes out to about 3k each.

In other words, if the company made no profit, workers could make another buck fifty an hour.



But Walmart actually made about $15 billion in profit.  And that's after subtracting $10 billion in stock buyback.  So they had $25 billion to play with (not including executive pay and bonuses).  That's closer to $12,000/employee, not $3,000.  And I think you know retail has one of the lowest profit margins of any business sector.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24333817 - 05/19/17 08:38 PM (4 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
From your article:

Quote:


Many surveyed complained of "bosses from hell" who ignored talent and didn't cultivate growth.









that's pretty loaded.  i have to agree with Enlil.  if someone feels they deserve something, but their performance doesn't warrant that something, that person is most likely going to blame their superior(s) for not recognizing their "talent(s)" and stifling their "growth", not themselves


ime, most people want to do as little as possible at work




another job i had (at a harbor freight; i made it 8 months before quitting, shitty company with shitty practices and products) raises were only up for review/offered annually.  my boss knew i wasn't too happy there, but he was a cool guy.  he convinced the RM i was worth keeping around.  RM reviewed my case and approved the boss to give me an 8% raise, $0.58/hr on a $7.25/hr pay base, at the 6 month mark when all the other reviews/raises were happening.  that warehouse and the shelves were never cleaner/more organized than when i was working there.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon] * 2
    #24333822 - 05/19/17 08:40 PM (4 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Cinnamon said:
Why doesn't Walmart get credit for the shear amount of people they employ?
they constantly get shit because most of 'em are working just above minimum wage, but no one points out just how many people they employ.

We're all completely fine with the CEO for managing to keep the company afloat and profitable while retaining so many jobs.

Except we're not fine with him being paid for that, instead we look at his pay and the shelf-stacker pay and try work out what gives.



We shouldn't give Walmart credit because:
1. They don't hire people because they care about how many jobs they are creating; they hire more people to make more money.
2. The more people Walmart hires, the more people aren't making money at higher paying jobs that Walmart is putting out of business.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24333868 - 05/19/17 08:54 PM (4 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

But Walmart actually made about $15 billion in profit.  And that's after subtracting $10 billion in stock buyback.  So they had $25 billion to play with (not including executive pay and bonuses).  That's closer to $12,000/employee, not $3,000.  And I think you know retail has one of the lowest profit margins of any business sector.



That's not what we're talking about though.  We're talking about how much an employee is earning for the owner.  That's about $3k an employee at Walmart.  In other words, less than 20%.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Enlil]
    #24333913 - 05/19/17 09:14 PM (4 months, 18 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:

Enlil said:
Since Wal-Mart has been brought up, let's look at how much the owners really make compared to employees.  Last year, the owners made about 7 billion.  If we divided that among the 2.3 million employees, that comes out to about 3k each.

In other words, if the company made no profit, workers could make another buck fifty an hour.



But Walmart actually made about $15 billion in profit.  And that's after subtracting $10 billion in stock buyback.  So they had $25 billion to play with (not including executive pay and bonuses).  That's closer to $12,000/employee, not $3,000.  And I think you know retail has one of the lowest profit margins of any business sector.



That's not what we're talking about though.  We're talking about how much an employee is earning for the owner.  That's about $3k an employee at Walmart.  In other words, less than 20%.



How did you come up with $7billion when Walmart profits were $15billion?  Are you only counting dividends?  That's irrelevant to what workers make for the company.  Some very profitable companies choose to pay no dividends.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: demiu5] * 2
    #24333942 - 05/19/17 09:23 PM (4 months, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
From your article:

Quote:


Many surveyed complained of "bosses from hell" who ignored talent and didn't cultivate growth.









that's pretty loaded.  i have to agree with Enlil.  if someone feels they deserve something, but their performance doesn't warrant that something, that person is most likely going to blame their superior(s) for not recognizing their "talent(s)" and stifling their "growth", not themselves


ime, most people want to do as little as possible at work




another job i had (at a harbor freight; i made it 8 months before quitting, shitty company with shitty practices and products) raises were only up for review/offered annually.  my boss knew i wasn't too happy there, but he was a cool guy.  he convinced the RM i was worth keeping around.  RM reviewed my case and approved the boss to give me an 8% raise, $0.58/hr on a $7.25/hr pay base, at the 6 month mark when all the other reviews/raises were happening.  that warehouse and the shelves were never cleaner/more organized than when i was working there.




I quit a warehouse job at a hardware store as a young man because I wanted a dollar and the boss offered me a dime.  They hired 3 part-timers to replace me.  It didn't matter to them how well i did my job, they weren't going to give me more than a dime and were willing to take the hit of losing me and having to shell out more than the dollar in the end.  It was worth it to them to have employees who are willing to work for less than they are worth.
I guess everyone has different experiences.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24333949 - 05/19/17 09:27 PM (4 months, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:

How did you come up with $7billion when Walmart profits were $15billion?  Are you only counting dividends?  That's irrelevant to what workers make for the company.  Some very profitable companies choose to pay no dividends.



Dividends are how owners get paid.  Company profit that is used for growth, reserve, etc. doesn't go to owners.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24333960 - 05/19/17 09:31 PM (4 months, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:

I quit a warehouse job at a hardware store as a young man because I wanted a dollar and the boss offered me a dime.  They hired 3 part-timers to replace me.  It didn't matter to them how well i did my job, they weren't going to give me more than a dime and were willing to take the hit of losing me and having to shell out more than the dollar in the end.  It was worth it to them to have employees who are willing to work for less than they are worth.
I guess everyone has different experiences.



The truth is that you only THINK that is why they did it.  They probably got a lot more work out of those three part-timers than they did out of you.  If you had made yourself worth a dollar fifty more, they would have gladly given you a dollar more.  If not, the competition would.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Enlil] * 2
    #24333990 - 05/19/17 09:45 PM (4 months, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:

I quit a warehouse job at a hardware store as a young man because I wanted a dollar and the boss offered me a dime.  They hired 3 part-timers to replace me.  It didn't matter to them how well i did my job, they weren't going to give me more than a dime and were willing to take the hit of losing me and having to shell out more than the dollar in the end.  It was worth it to them to have employees who are willing to work for less than they are worth.
I guess everyone has different experiences.



The truth is that you only THINK that is why they did it.  They probably got a lot more work out of those three part-timers than they did out of you.  If you had made yourself worth a dollar fifty more, they would have gladly given you a dollar more.  If not, the competition would.





I doubt it.  We're talking about a hardware store warehouse.  They can only fit so much product on the shelves, so i doubt the total workload has changed much.  Bottom line, they're paying for something like 60 hours when it was getting done in 40 already.  It isn't a hard job, but there isn't much brainwork to do so its pretty boring.  I'm glad they played hardball with me on the dime, because i know people who are still working at that place, running the joint and making less than me(which is saying something because i make dick right now).


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Enlil] * 1
    #24334056 - 05/19/17 10:09 PM (4 months, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

Enlil said:
Dividends are how owners get paid.



It's just one way owners can get paid.  Keeping money in the company increases the price of the stock, and owners can simply sell stock as it goes up in value to make money.

You should reread an old discussion I had with you starting here to the end.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: ballsalsa]
    #24334072 - 05/19/17 10:16 PM (4 months, 17 hours ago)

Quote:

ballsalsa said:
Quote:

demiu5 said:
Quote:

ballsalsa said:
From your article:

Quote:


Many surveyed complained of "bosses from hell" who ignored talent and didn't cultivate growth.









that's pretty loaded.  i have to agree with Enlil.  if someone feels they deserve something, but their performance doesn't warrant that something, that person is most likely going to blame their superior(s) for not recognizing their "talent(s)" and stifling their "growth", not themselves


ime, most people want to do as little as possible at work




another job i had (at a harbor freight; i made it 8 months before quitting, shitty company with shitty practices and products) raises were only up for review/offered annually.  my boss knew i wasn't too happy there, but he was a cool guy.  he convinced the RM i was worth keeping around.  RM reviewed my case and approved the boss to give me an 8% raise, $0.58/hr on a $7.25/hr pay base, at the 6 month mark when all the other reviews/raises were happening.  that warehouse and the shelves were never cleaner/more organized than when i was working there.




I quit a warehouse job at a hardware store as a young man because I wanted a dollar and the boss offered me a dime.  They hired 3 part-timers to replace me.  It didn't matter to them how well i did my job, they weren't going to give me more than a dime and were willing to take the hit of losing me and having to shell out more than the dollar in the end.  It was worth it to them to have employees who are willing to work for less than they are worth.
I guess everyone has different experiences.







i must say, aside from one "boss/manager" and a few tolerable but prickish assistant managers, i've had really good experiences with both bosses and landlords


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 2
    #24334107 - 05/19/17 10:26 PM (4 months, 16 hours ago)

Nice link, it was a interesting and enjoyable read and reminded me how much I miss zig.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: TNK] * 1
    #24334141 - 05/19/17 10:35 PM (4 months, 16 hours ago)

Thanks - one of my favorite discussions with zap.  He must have known how badly he lost, but that guy refused to admit he was wrong.


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03] * 1
    #24334165 - 05/19/17 10:44 PM (4 months, 16 hours ago)

I can't recall a time where he admitted he was wrong, but then again he nearly never was wrong. :shrug:


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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Falcon91Wolvrn03]
    #24334264 - 05/19/17 11:27 PM (4 months, 15 hours ago)

Quote:

Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Keeping money in the company increases the price of the stock, and owners can simply sell stock as it goes up in value to make money.



1. That's speculative
2. Then they're not owners anymore.

In any case, nothing you've said changes the simple fact that an owner does not make 10-20 times what a worker makes from that worker's work.


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