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InvisiblePhantomFrequency
Adventures of Ideas

Registered: 02/22/17
Posts: 203
Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: cez]
    #24294227 - 05/04/17 08:28 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

you bring up some valid points.  I would definitely like to explore relationship between truth and freedom a little more, since its something I think about in my own life a lot.


--------------------


"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."

-Heraclitus


Edited by PhantomFrequency (05/08/17 11:28 AM)


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InvisiblePhantomFrequency
Adventures of Ideas

Registered: 02/22/17
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: PhantomFrequency]
    #24294383 - 05/04/17 10:01 AM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

If you agree that reality is a war of ideas, would you ever want to create a false narrative?




this is an interesting question.  I might respond by saying a false narrative is not as dangerous as a "false truth" (if that could be such a thing).  sometimes we create false narratives to help explain an idea ("if I put myself in your shoes...").

Quote:

I believe the problems of the world in large part are due to miscommunication.  Lying only deepens miscommunication and damages the trust that the receiver of the lie may of had for you. I think trust is a byproduct of truth and it deepens our sense of shared experience.  If we want to live in harmony and share our lives with one another which I think may be the greatest good of being human on the interpersonal level, we should be truthful because truth is the soil that allows trust to blossom.  The more we trust one another, the more we share with one another and the more we grow with one another in creating a greater sense of shared reality and understanding of what is true. 




with this, we are going to end up in the same place, because like I said before, even though I generally agree with this sentiment, it doesn't bring us any closer to a "truth" that we can (as a collective of individuals) agree on.  essentially, this sentiment just assumes there is such a thing, which I cannot agree with.  because of this, the act of lying is relative because truth is relative.

Quote:

Let's say there's a young boy in Pakistan who was naturally gentle and kind and wouldn't consider harming anything and then was indoctrinated into the ISIS belief system to the point of forgetting that gentleness which was his original way.  Is the thought system he is now part of his truth?




I would respond to this by using your McKenna quote (which is derived from existentialism, I think Sartre) "Only the free are guilty, because only the free are responsible for what they do."  since the ISIS fighter in your example is a free individual, he is responsible for the truth he takes on, be it false or not.  BUT even with that said, I can sympathize with your reasoning here:

"I generally think ISIS fighters don't have much of a chance in having another way of life or exploring the totality of their humanness. In a sense I generally think we can relate to the ISIS fighter.  We have grown from the conditions of the world at the time and place of our becoming and for critical developmental years of our lives we were under the guidance of people who may not have been ideal teachers for thinking and acting in the world. "

I think your thoughts here are quite beautiful:

"I agree with you about challenging all truth.  This is why I think working on oneself to discern what is true is of most importance because it stops the unconscious autonomy of the ways we were given prior to being able to think and act for ourselves.  Truth is the key to freedom.  We may not know what is true, but I think we know when we are not being truthful and that can be a starting point."

it might be interesting to flip around too.  freedom could be a condition upon which truth is built.


--------------------


"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."

-Heraclitus


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: PhantomFrequency]
    #24294744 - 05/04/17 12:17 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

All I can say is that my compass always points in the general direction of love, even though it is a moving target.

due to inaccuracies I cannot promote it.
I recommend not hating instead.


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InvisibleJokeshopbeardM
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: cez]
    #24294810 - 05/04/17 12:44 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

cez said:
I maintain that the greatest good has to be available to everyone.  If I haven't experienced this state that you have, how can this be the greatest good for me?



You raise a really good point here cez. It resonates with me twofold:

1. I guess, when I worded the OP, I should have been more descriptive. Instead of saying 'real, unconditional' - I should have said something like 'all kinds of love - forget the kind which is portrayed to us through media' or something of the like. It just gets me how many think of love as something which is shared purely in a romantic sense, when really, they seem to know not even that! It's so much more IMO; love for your mother, brother, friend, partner, dog, new acquaintance, etc. Love for yourself, love for the world, for god, for being alive. Passionate love, playful love, the love in a deep friendship, etc, etc.

2. I think probably all but the most damaged of us have experienced 'unconditional love' - even if only brielfy. Due to the noise in our minds we might not recognise it as such at the time, but in hindsight, can you not recall moments in your life when you felt so strongly for another you would have died for them?


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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InvisibleRahz
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #24295608 - 05/04/17 06:31 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

What makes sense to me is that some love is more solid than others. One's love may be tested. How much can a person take before they forsake their feelings? The brother steals the girlfriend, the dog bites, etc. Is the love conditional if it results in distance? Or anger? If one comes to their senses and again feels love for a person/place/thing that may be well, but was the love unconditional to begin with?

I see the idea of unconditional love to be a romantic idea... :smile: Perhaps something to aspire to, but like perfection out of reach. If one thinks they are unconditional lovers, or believe they can be, are they not in the middle of a romance just the same as if they were worshiping a sexual object?


--------------------
rahz

comfort pleasure power love truth awareness peace


“Avalanches start as snowflakes. Little things matter.”


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Invisiblecez

Registered: 08/04/09
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #24295644 - 05/04/17 06:48 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

Quote:

Jokeshopbeard said:
Quote:

cez said:
I maintain that the greatest good has to be available to everyone.  If I haven't experienced this state that you have, how can this be the greatest good for me?



You raise a really good point here cez. It resonates with me twofold:

1. I guess, when I worded the OP, I should have been more descriptive. Instead of saying 'real, unconditional' - I should have said something like 'all kinds of love - forget the kind which is portrayed to us through media' or something of the like. It just gets me how many think of love as something which is shared purely in a romantic sense, when really, they seem to know not even that! It's so much more IMO; love for your mother, brother, friend, partner, dog, new acquaintance, etc. Love for yourself, love for the world, for god, for being alive. Passionate love, playful love, the love in a deep friendship, etc, etc.

2. I think probably all but the most damaged of us have experienced 'unconditional love' - even if only brielfy. Due to the noise in our minds we might not recognise it as such at the time, but in hindsight, can you not recall moments in your life when you felt so strongly for another you would have died for them?




I agree with you in essence and I agree with RGV in that love should be the target of which the arrow of our life is pointed, but when I think of "unconditional love" as I took your op, I think of a story like Ramana Maharshi's who has been said to have underwent an unprovoked experience at I think 16 or 17 years old.  The validity of his experience can be debated but I do not think his life is just some far Eastern fairy-tale.  Eckhart Tolle has a similar story, Douglas Harding has a similar story, you have a similar story and on and on it goes.  I suspect there's something there even though I don't have experiential proof.

That's not to say I haven't experienced an intoxicating sense of love or gratitude at various moments in my life, but in hindsight I wouldn't say any of these experiences were "unconditional." 

I entertain the idea that on a level not grasped by the rational mind this entire human experience is unconditional love and everything that happens in my life, the good, the bad, everything, is an expression of unconditional love and therefore it's all significant and everything matters.  The skeptic in me thinks this is an idea better kept to myself, or better yet abandoned because I have no merit for it's plausibility and I've seen one too many OC rebuttals to this type of thinking over the years where they go something like, "tell that to the starving children in Africa," and that I just don't think I could do. :shrug:


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: cez]
    #24295657 - 05/04/17 06:54 PM (3 months, 12 days ago)

So, the biggest skeptic in "the room", tells me to call him "Sir Real" as a joke.  What is real exactly?  Some twin flame love that is an obsession when the thin veil of love is lifted from it?  Just because you think you will die for someone's love that you just met doesn't make it "unconditional" it just makes it an obsession you need treatment for.

Your therapist laid it out, you had stress disorder, and this was post stress disorder exhibited in spades.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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Invisibleredgreenvines
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24296818 - 05/05/17 08:35 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

is this the symbol of love? ❤️
if so,
while cute, it is simplistic
I have not seen a reason to rate it as the greatest symbol, though it is not more abused than any other popular religious symbols.

everything should be learned and improved and balanced including love, money, integrity, work, etc.


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InvisiblePhantomFrequency
Adventures of Ideas

Registered: 02/22/17
Posts: 203
Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: redgreenvines]
    #24296886 - 05/05/17 09:21 AM (3 months, 11 days ago)

this thread brings up a lot of good points, although I admit I'm more interested in untangling ethics than untangling love.

love is something I want to experience, not understand or prove.


--------------------


"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."

-Heraclitus


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Invisiblecez

Registered: 08/04/09
Posts: 5,637
Loc: Chicago
Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: PhantomFrequency]
    #24298564 - 05/05/17 11:18 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

Would you agree that suffering is a self-existing truth rather than relatively observed?  If you can agree to that, can you agree that in your willingness to speak truthfully, as in how things appear to be to you, you have information that someone else doesn't have and therefore can be of service to them? 

I think we all have blind spots within our view of the world and these blind spots birth more suffering.  If you and I come together in truthful conversation, how things appear to be to you may inadvertently improve how things appear to be to me.  Your truth may act as a light in allowing me to see where I am blind and better equip me to move forward in the world without creating more suffering for myself and others due to my ignorance.

I think by telling the truth, humans become vehicles for the annihilation of suffering and that is the greatest good of which we can be capable of.


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InvisibleLunarEclipse
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: cez]
    #24298611 - 05/05/17 11:30 PM (3 months, 11 days ago)

If I told you the salmon numbers are down 90 plus percent, that the great Pacific Ocean and the life within it is dying, would you join me in spreading that truth?

I'm guessing probably not, but I did have to try.


--------------------
Anxiety is what you make it.


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InvisiblePhantomFrequency
Adventures of Ideas

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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: LunarEclipse]
    #24299113 - 05/06/17 06:44 AM (3 months, 10 days ago)

Quote:

Would you agree that suffering is a self-existing truth rather than relatively observed?  If you can agree to that, can you agree that in your willingness to speak truthfully, as in how things appear to be to you, you have information that someone else doesn't have and therefore can be of service to them? 




  suffering, as a state of being, for me has been transient, although there were and are longer periods and shorter periods.  in that way, it is relative to the time and situation.  but yes, I agree with your second sentence.

Quote:

I think we all have blind spots within our view of the world and these blind spots birth more suffering.  If you and I come together in truthful conversation, how things appear to be to you may inadvertently improve how things appear to be to me.  Your truth may act as a light in allowing me to see where I am blind and better equip me to move forward in the world without creating more suffering for myself and others due to my ignorance.




this is great too. 

im not sure about the annihilation of suffering though.  I would be worried that would bring about a static state.  I'm really not trying to fetishize suffering either, im of the opinion its what helps us to grow stronger.  so to put an end to that would mean we put an end to our development.  I don't want that.


--------------------


"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."

-Heraclitus


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Invisiblecez

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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: PhantomFrequency] * 1
    #24302444 - 05/07/17 03:47 PM (3 months, 9 days ago)

I agree with you, but I think it's transient in the same sense as the sun appears to be transient.  We get relief from suffering like we see the moon and stars at night, but the sun is still there while we see the moon and stars in it's appeared absence.  While we have experiences that don't appear as suffering, I think there's still a sense of subtle dissatisfaction in them.

Even when experiencing goodness there's a sense of craving imo, as if the goodness can be better.  Ice cream is good, it's even better with chocolate syrup.  I can make the ice cream and syrup combo even better if I add whipped cream, etcetera etcetera. 

In regards to the annhilation of suffering, I should have said the annihilation of unnecessary suffering. Suffering has its place in our evolutionary process, but a lot of suffering can be avoided or not created if we chose to tell the truth.


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Offlinenothing exists
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: cez]
    #24319876 - 05/14/17 11:25 PM (3 months, 2 days ago)

yes, love is the greatest good


belief in good and evil

is the final insanity

the abyss


the secret of good and evil is that evil always wins

good can only do what is good, it cannot do what is evil

evil can do anything to win, evil pretends to be good

thereby co opting good, making good do evil works

under the illusion of goodness

in this way, good is subject to evil



the universe does not judge good and evil

it operates on right and wrong



love is the highest expression of evil

for to love, one must hate

suppressed hate becomes the pain of death, loss



love is the precursor of murder


--------------------
i like you...


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InvisiblePhantomFrequency
Adventures of Ideas

Registered: 02/22/17
Posts: 203
Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: nothing exists]
    #24320455 - 05/15/17 07:43 AM (3 months, 1 day ago)

Quote:

the secret of good and evil is that evil always wins

good can only do what is good, it cannot do what is evil

evil can do anything to win, evil pretends to be good

thereby co opting good, making good do evil works

under the illusion of goodness

in this way, good is subject to evil




I love the way you put that, reminds me of Nietzsche.

edit: specifically this quote from Zarathustra

Quote:

"man is evil" - all the wisest men have told me that to comfort me.  Oh, if only this were true today!  For evil is man's strength.

"man must grow better and more evil" --this is what I teach.  The greatest evil is necessary for the superman's greatest achievement.

Perhaps it was good the poor peoples sage took upon himself and suffered the sins of humanity.  I, on the other hand, rejoice in great sins as my consolation...




and....

Quote:

Courageous, unperturbed, mocking, violent- this is what wisdom wants to be: wisdom is a woman and loves only a warrior.





--------------------


"Man is most nearly himself when he achieves the seriousness of a child at play."

-Heraclitus


Edited by PhantomFrequency (05/15/17 07:51 AM)


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: Jokeshopbeard] * 1
    #24322928 - 05/16/17 02:14 AM (3 months, 21 hours ago)

You might find this article helpful, on the various words/types of love the ancient Greeks had. Our word love is so inadequate that we use the same word for our wives, loved ones, and favorite chocolate bar. It's like the word snow. Inuits and Yupiks (Eskimos) have some 28 words for snow in all its practical variations.

http://www.yesmagazine.org/happiness/the-ancient-greeks-6-words-for-love-and-why-knowing-them-can-change-your-life?utm_source=FB&utm_medium=Social&utm_campaign=20131227#.Ur7rEfzJtvU.facebook


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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InvisibleJokeshopbeardM
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24325411 - 05/16/17 10:13 PM (3 months, 1 hour ago)

Thanks MtG. I recall you posting that article a long time ago; I found it extremely enlightening.

I've actually got the six words and a brief description of them I wrote on a piece of card stuck on the wall behind the desk I'm sitting at as I write this!!


--------------------
Let it be seen that you are nothing. And in knowing that you are nothing... there is nothing to lose, there is nothing to gain. What can happen to you? Something can happen to the body, but it will either heal or it won't. What's the big deal? Let life knock you to bits. Let life take you apart. Let life destroy you. It will only destroy what you are not.
--Jac O'keeffe


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: Jokeshopbeard]
    #24331719 - 05/19/17 02:39 AM (2 months, 28 days ago)

Whoops! Yes I sometimes repost and frankly, I don't remember to whom I shared this or other things that I've repeated, but sometimes the most potent response I can think of is from an article like this. It's had an illuminating effect on me and I'm glad you also find it worth while. We post-modern people have gained much technologically but we have also lost much in the way of our humanity. There has always been 'man's inhumanity to man' but technology has increased this negative aspect of our species exponentially while we have lost much of human soulfulness as evidenced in part by the increasing sterility of language.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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Offlinemrnintendowii
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: MarkostheGnostic]
    #24333276 - 05/19/17 04:56 PM (2 months, 28 days ago)

I think love is an expression of a even greater feeling. Compassion.


--------------------
Let go your earthly tether. Enter the void. Empty and become wind.


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OfflineMarkostheGnostic
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Re: Is love the greatest good of which humans are capable? [Re: mrnintendowii] * 1
    #24339436 - 05/22/17 02:24 AM (2 months, 25 days ago)

Quote:

mrnintendowii said:
I think love is an expression of a even greater feeling. Compassion.




The Greek agapé is warm, disinterested love, and it might be the closest thing to compassion in the Buddhist sense of action that alleviates suffering. Compassion is much more than a feeling, it includes enlightened action, acts motivated by compassion, which in turn has elements of empathy and congruence (being on the same page with another, as well as what psychologist carl Rogers called unconditional positive regard. This is caring for another without any thought of recompense.


--------------------
γνῶθι σαὐτόν - Gnothi Seauton - Know Thyself


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