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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
Registered: 11/11/09
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon]
#24309606 - 05/10/17 12:12 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cinnamon said:
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Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: All of the problems you've addressed above would be taken care of by single payer insurance, which is what the majority of Americans now favor, including republicans.
That takes insurance and all associated expenses out of equation entirely.
The concierge-payment system you proposed, even if more affordable than what we have now, still doesn't help those that can't afford it.
The ACA doesn't help with affordability either.
I like the concept of the Single-payer it's a good middle ground.
Middle ground between what?
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ballsalsa
Universally Loathed and Reviled
Registered: 03/11/15
Posts: 22,000
Loc: Foreign Lands
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon] 2
#24309639 - 05/10/17 12:23 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cinnamon said:
Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: All of the problems you've addressed above would be taken care of by single payer insurance, which is what the majority of Americans now favor, including republicans.
That takes insurance and all associated expenses out of equation entirely.
The concierge-payment system you proposed, even if more affordable than what we have now, still doesn't help those that can't afford it.
The ACA doesn't help with affordability either.
I like the concept of the Single-payer it's a good middle ground.
The ACA sucks. There are plenty of left-leaning Americans who have been saying this from day 1. It's corporate welfare for insurance companies with a few good things like medicaid expansion thrown in. The only real saving grace is that it might have moved us toward Single Payer.
-------------------- Like cannabis topics? Read my cannabis blog here
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koods
Ribbit
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon] 5
#24309663 - 05/10/17 12:34 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Why do you need to have choices for health insurance. It's not like you can really predict what services you may need in the future. The point of insurance is to cover the unexpected.
There should be ONE plan: if you need medical care, you get it. Premiums for health coverage are a federal tax. Everyone is insured for whatever god damn problem they have. The government negotiates prices because they are the only payer. It's essentially what Canada does, and Canadians of all political persuasions like it.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Cinnamon
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: The Ecstatic]
#24309670 - 05/10/17 12:37 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Middle ground between what?
Between nothing and shit. in a shit sandwich it's got some meat in it.
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TNK
Pleasures of Africa
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: koods]
#24309677 - 05/10/17 12:38 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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But that's socialism!
We're American, the great capitalistic father of the world.
-------------------- Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)
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koods
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: TNK] 5
#24309696 - 05/10/17 12:44 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Police and fire protection are socialist. Public schools are socialist. National defense is socialist. Our highway system is socialist.
All the important shit is run by the government to benefit everyone. Health care should be treated as a right, just like education and access to the public roads and police assistance.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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TNK
Pleasures of Africa
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: koods] 1
#24309702 - 05/10/17 12:47 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Is your sarcasm detector broken?
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Cinnamon
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: koods]
#24309731 - 05/10/17 12:56 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: Police and fire protection are socialist. Public schools are socialist. National defense is socialist. Our highway system is socialist.
All the important shit is run by the government to benefit everyone. Health care should be treated as a right, just like education and access to the public roads and police assistance.
Way to get fucking autistic.
You act like the police department and public schools are efficient and well run. Just got done bitching and whining about the military. Every day there's some dopey leftist protest 'cause a cop shot a black guy with a gun.
Do you know how many security guards there are in the U.S? that's your private police right there. some efficient shit too, get more coverage of areas, quicker response times to alerts.
all that's missing is the ability for them to detain suspects before they sprint off into the night.
Public schools, good lord, don't champion that one too loudly.
Yes you can run healthcare off the government, but you have to be willing to accept it comes with some pretty good sized suckage as with everything else.
People will die who wouldn't have died otherwise. waiting times probably will increase. doctors salaries probably will go down - strikes and bullshit like we get here all the fuckin' time. Innovation will probably slow down.
BUT free healthcare for the bottom barrel borderline homeless poor and everyone else, unless you're rich, then you get the yummy healthcare at a pretty penny.
Then we'll all get to understand what it feels like to be poor looking up the towering golden goose of private clinics out of our reach, while we sit next to a woman with ebola waiting to get our broken toe looked at.
So yes, socialism. Equal suffering for all unless you're rich, but you're not rich because we're equal, but we're not equal because you get better shit than I, but I still get some shit.. so we're equal. or something.
idk how the mental gymnastics work for socialists.
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koods
Ribbit
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: TNK]
#24309735 - 05/10/17 12:57 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
TNK said: Is your sarcasm detector broken?
Nope
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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TNK
Pleasures of Africa
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon] 3
#24309861 - 05/10/17 01:41 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cinnamon said:
Quote:
koods said: Police and fire protection are socialist. Public schools are socialist. National defense is socialist. Our highway system is socialist.
All the important shit is run by the government to benefit everyone. Health care should be treated as a right, just like education and access to the public roads and police assistance.
Way to get fucking autistic.
You act like the police department and public schools are efficient and well run. Just got done bitching and whining about the military. Every day there's some dopey leftist protest 'cause a cop shot a black guy with a gun.
Do you know how many security guards there are in the U.S? that's your private police right there. some efficient shit too, get more coverage of areas, quicker response times to alerts.
all that's missing is the ability for them to detain suspects before they sprint off into the night.
Public schools, good lord, don't champion that one too loudly.
Yes you can run healthcare off the government, but you have to be willing to accept it comes with some pretty good sized suckage as with everything else.
People will die who wouldn't have died otherwise. waiting times probably will increase. doctors salaries probably will go down - strikes and bullshit like we get here all the fuckin' time. Innovation will probably slow down.
BUT free healthcare for the bottom barrel borderline homeless poor and everyone else, unless you're rich, then you get the yummy healthcare at a pretty penny.
Then we'll all get to understand what it feels like to be poor looking up the towering golden goose of private clinics out of our reach, while we sit next to a woman with ebola waiting to get our broken toe looked at.
So yes, socialism. Equal suffering for all unless you're rich, but you're not rich because we're equal, but we're not equal because you get better shit than I, but I still get some shit.. so we're equal. or something.
idk how the mental gymnastics work for socialists.
You are the one who is literally autistic and performing mind bending mental gymnastics.
-------------------- Edited by TNK (02/22/22 22:22 PM)
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Cinnamon
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: TNK]
#24309933 - 05/10/17 02:04 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
You are the one who is literally autistic and performing mind bending mental gymnastics.
Yes ok commie.
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koods
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon] 2
#24309947 - 05/10/17 02:11 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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He's no communist, you Ayn Rand worshiping objectivist.
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NotSheekle said “if I believed she was 16 I would become unattracted to her”
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Cinnamon
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: koods]
#24309955 - 05/10/17 02:14 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
koods said: He's no communist, you Ayn Rand worshiping objectivist.
Did you learn that from your liberal arts college?
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon] 1
#24309982 - 05/10/17 02:26 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cinnamon said: Yes you can run healthcare off the government, but you have to be willing to accept it comes with some pretty good sized suckage as with everything else.
People will die who wouldn't have died otherwise. waiting times probably will increase. doctors salaries probably will go down - strikes and bullshit like we get here all the fuckin' time. Innovation will probably slow down.
BUT free healthcare for the bottom barrel borderline homeless poor and everyone else, unless you're rich, then you get the yummy healthcare at a pretty penny.
Then we'll all get to understand what it feels like to be poor looking up the towering golden goose of private clinics out of our reach, while we sit next to a woman with ebola waiting to get our broken toe looked at.
So yes, socialism. Equal suffering for all unless you're rich, but you're not rich because we're equal, but we're not equal because you get better shit than I, but I still get some shit.. so we're equal. or something.
idk how the mental gymnastics work for socialists.
^^^I think we do have a contender for Straw Man King.^^^
Cinnamon, you make very little sense. Giving everyone health insurance isn't going to kill more people, it's going to save more people. This isn't some pie in the sky dream you get to make believe things about, this is something that's being done all over the world and we know it works.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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The Ecstatic
Chilldog Extraordinaire
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon]
#24309989 - 05/10/17 02:30 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Quote:
Cinnamon said:
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Middle ground between what?
Between nothing and shit. in a shit sandwich it's got some meat in it.
Fair enough
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Cinnamon
Stranger
Registered: 03/09/12
Posts: 865
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said:
Quote:
Cinnamon said: Yes you can run healthcare off the government, but you have to be willing to accept it comes with some pretty good sized suckage as with everything else.
People will die who wouldn't have died otherwise. waiting times probably will increase. doctors salaries probably will go down - strikes and bullshit like we get here all the fuckin' time. Innovation will probably slow down.
BUT free healthcare for the bottom barrel borderline homeless poor and everyone else, unless you're rich, then you get the yummy healthcare at a pretty penny.
Then we'll all get to understand what it feels like to be poor looking up the towering golden goose of private clinics out of our reach, while we sit next to a woman with ebola waiting to get our broken toe looked at.
So yes, socialism. Equal suffering for all unless you're rich, but you're not rich because we're equal, but we're not equal because you get better shit than I, but I still get some shit.. so we're equal. or something.
idk how the mental gymnastics work for socialists.
^^^I think we do have a contender for Straw Man King.^^^
Cinnamon, you make very little sense. Giving everyone health insurance isn't going to kill more people, it's going to save more people. This isn't some pie in the sky dream you get to make believe things about, this is something that's being done all over the world and we know it works.
mmm, no but it has killed people, you throw strawman around whenever you want to act like your system is flawless and any legitimate critique.
Quote:
Statistics Canada found that about one fifth of patients who visited a specialist, and about 11 per cent of those waiting for non-emergency surgery, were adversely affected by their wait. Many reported experiencing worry, stress, anxiety, pain, and difficulties with daily activities.
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Protracted wait times may also result in potentially treatable illnesses and injuries becoming chronic, permanent, debilitating conditions. In such circumstances, requiring patients to accept inordinately long waiting times, without the opportunity to seek alternative treatment denies them their basic human right to lead healthy lives (as recognized by the Supreme Court in 2005). It is precisely for this reason that Dr. Brian Day, former head of the Canadian Medical Association, is fighting a court case in British Columbia to allow private treatment for those patients who have fallen through the cracks of the public system. One of his co-plaintiffs has already died while waiting for the trial, while another is permanently disabled because of neglect on the public wait list.
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after crunching the numbers we estimated between 25,456 and 63,090 Canadian women may have died as a result of increased wait times during this period. Large as this number is, it doesn't even begin to quantify the possibility of increased disability and poorer quality of life as a result of protracted wait times.
Stop acting like you've solved the worlds problems, especially stop pretending it will be some flawless system that the world will be in awe of.
every single country with government facilitated health care has problems.
Canada is the favorite example by people who say this is a great system, so we should probably look at them to know what not to do.
EDIT: Oh look, the article agreed.
Quote:
Defenders of Canada's status quo will likely balk at these suggestions and cling to their dream of government-delivered universal healthcare -- ignoring the fact that it simply doesn't work for many patients. But those who are pragmatic, and truly committed to fixing our broken system, should seriously consider implementing reforms that seem to have worked in other countries that are equally committed to universal access to health care.
Edited by Cinnamon (05/10/17 02:36 PM)
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Cinnamon]
#24310245 - 05/10/17 04:32 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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I never said Canada's system was perfect, Mr Straw Man King.
But more people obviously die from NOT being able to see a doctor at all than from waiting to see one for non-emergencies.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Great Scott
Trigger Lover
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So tedious
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Falcon91Wolvrn03
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Re: Why are communists so awful? [Re: Great Scott] 3
#24310318 - 05/10/17 05:03 PM (6 years, 10 months ago) |
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Straw Man Arguments are tremendously tedious.
-------------------- I am in a minority on the shroomery, as I frequently defend the opposing side when they have a point about something or when my side make believes something about them. I also attack my side if I think they're wrong. People here get very confused by that and think it means I prefer the other side.
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Cinnamon
Stranger
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Quote:
Falcon91Wolvrn03 said: I never said Canada's system was perfect, Mr Straw Man King.
But more people obviously die from NOT being able to see a doctor at all than from waiting to see one for non-emergencies.
Okay Fallacy Fallacy king, it was actually more of a fallacious use of ad absurdum if anything, but sure, we'll roll with strawman if it makes you feel better.
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we can derive that between 20,000 and 45,000 Americans die each year due to a lack of health insurance. -Obamacare Facts.com
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We can safely say (that with an uninsured rate of about 40 million, and remember that is dropping under the ACA (fucking duh?)) that somewhere between 20,000 and 40,000 deaths occur each year due to lack of health insurance
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We can also say that as many occur from being a man, from being a former smoker, and far more occur due to being a current smoker.
Interesting.
An estimate as high as 60,000 Canadian women dying because of that glorious system Sanders worships and for some reason some of the left want to subject that upon the U.S populace.
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