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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Registered: 10/12/16
Posts: 12,943
Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24269787 - 04/25/17 12:58 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Take a look at this thread if you want. YES it is off the shroomery but it compiles data from users and has it graphed. Many people agree about the short term tolerance. That's why psychedelics are fairly self regulating as far as addiction.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/479297-The-Big-amp-Dandy-LSD-amp-Shroom-Tolerance-FAQ-and-Discussion-Thread


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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Fungi2TripWit]
    #24269790 - 04/25/17 01:02 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fungi2TripWit said:
Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
Tolerance builds fast and tapers out mostly over a week. I have tried tripping a few days after on several occasions and it just doesn't work. Tolerance to shrooms and lsd builds and works differently than say with weed. If you want to trip the very next day, you have to take 2-3 times as much to get the same level trip. Tested this about 4or 5 times now.





This is what I was looking for... thanks man.  So most likely I was tolerant and my buddy just barfed most of his dose.  I thought 30 minutes was enough to absorb most of the liquid as it only takes about 20-30 minutes to feel the effects of a pill, and that has to dissolve first.



Eating shrooms only take about 30 for effect drinking tea is almost instant 10 minutes tops any way maybe you made the tea wrong or something


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Groo]
    #24269791 - 04/25/17 01:02 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
since psychadelic trips are by definition subjective, its really damned hard to know what potency is like in any of our projects, unless we have them analyzed with GCMS or something... wish i could find an easy way to objectively measure actives though

since set and setting, body chemistry / physiology, and psychological state have SO much impact, and there are so many factors involved, its nearly impossible to use our subjective evaluation of trips to even guess about objective potency

of course an experienced grower/psychonaut  can make informed guesses about how things compare to other batches in similar doses/circumstances/users, but ultimately it is a guess. especially since people can have such different experiences off of similar doses of the same exact batch, simply due to how recently they tripped, stomach contents, whether their parents are divorcing, etc

so its really tough to say for sure... strangely, higher doses dont always equal stronger or better trips, so that really complicates any objective analysis of peoples subjective trip/experience. its like "good cheese" and "bad cheese": 100% subjective.

one person might have an amazing trip off of 3g, and another might experience nothing, or a terrible trip, off of the exact same fruits from the same monoculture tub. the same could happen even with pure chemicals. our subjective experiences dont really tell us much about potency, beyond an informed guess

so when people discuss potency loss from drying, or really ANYTHING relating to potncy, unless they are having them GCMS analyzed before and after, they are ultimately guessing about something objective (potency) based on nothing more than the subjective experiences of them and their friends (trips) 

i really wish there was a convenient way to objectively measure active concentrations




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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Fungi2TripWit]
    #24269793 - 04/25/17 01:04 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Fungi2TripWit said:
Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
Tolerance builds fast and tapers out mostly over a week. I have tried tripping a few days after on several occasions and it just doesn't work. Tolerance to shrooms and lsd builds and works differently than say with weed. If you want to trip the very next day, you have to take 2-3 times as much to get the same level trip. Tested this about 4or 5 times now.





This is what I was looking for... thanks man.  So most likely I was tolerant and my buddy just barfed most of his dose.  I thought 30 minutes was enough to absorb most of the liquid as it only takes about 20-30 minutes to feel the effects of a pill, and that has to dissolve first.




From my experience barfing them up does reduce the intensity of the trip. I hope what I am about to say is the correct way it works. From what I understand the psilocin is the chemical that produces the trip in the brain, and the psilocybin has to go through the liver or kidneys and has to be converted, by the body, into the psilocin that works on the brain. So in your buddy's case he cut himself short.

Now I could be off slightly on this BUT I remember researching this one night stoned off my ass and it is fairly close to what happens with the absorption and usage of the actives.

What C10 is saying, is why one should really only compare their own trips. Even THAT is still highly subjective, but its better to take out the variable of multiple people.


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OfflineFungi2TripWit
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Groo]
    #24269794 - 04/25/17 01:05 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Groo said:
Multi Spore can have the propensity to have mushrooms of Greatly varying sizes, potency, and other things. If you want POtency, and quality it is important to pick a few good isolates/clones and test for potency yield and more.





If all the mushies have different genes in a ms flush, what do you do, take a sample from one mushroom and clone it... then eat the rest of it and grade the potency from eating one mushroom?  Then you have to wait a week to try another from your flush and grade that one?  That doesn't sound realistic... am I missing something?


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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Fungi2TripWit]
    #24269803 - 04/25/17 01:09 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Pretty much ill take a clone take the sample eat it if i dont feel it pretty quick or is just ok i toss the sample take another one ....

But if its great more then likely you will have a tub full of great fruits ... havent you read ms is a crap shoot?? ...

Cloning is the best way to get good potent and descent flushes its more consitent


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OfflineFungi2TripWit
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Boogieman47]
    #24269807 - 04/25/17 01:11 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Boogieman47 said:
Quote:

Fungi2TripWit said:
Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
Tolerance builds fast and tapers out mostly over a week. I have tried tripping a few days after on several occasions and it just doesn't work. Tolerance to shrooms and lsd builds and works differently than say with weed. If you want to trip the very next day, you have to take 2-3 times as much to get the same level trip. Tested this about 4or 5 times now.





This is what I was looking for... thanks man.  So most likely I was tolerant and my buddy just barfed most of his dose.  I thought 30 minutes was enough to absorb most of the liquid as it only takes about 20-30 minutes to feel the effects of a pill, and that has to dissolve first.



Eating shrooms only take about 30 for effect drinking tea is almost instant 10 minutes tops any way maybe you made the tea wrong or something




kinda hard to fuck up tea... unless you boil it a few hours on the stove on high I'd imagine.  I chopped up mushies put them in a small pot, poured on water that was boiled and sat a couple minutes after the boil, added some loose tea, let sit for 15 minutes stirring occasionally, strained, pressed out remaining water, added sugar, then drank.


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OfflineGroo
sola dosis facit venenum
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Fungi2TripWit]
    #24269811 - 04/25/17 01:12 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

HAve you ever heard of a thing called Science\experimentation\Tests analysis and repeat forever and ever.

If you were a company that was growing mushrooms for the whole USA it would not make sense to grow a Piece of crap mushroom.

Science for profit must be done in the most scientific way.

But you`re not exactly a mushroom kingpin. No reason to not Isolate test and then test then isolate then test a bit. Piesn;t have to be perfect but better is bettter.

SPECIES % PSILOCYBIN % PSILOCIN % BAEOCYSTIN REFERENCE
P. azurenscens 1.78 .38 .35 Stamets and Gartz 1995
P. bohemica 1.34 .11 .02 Gartz and Muller 1989; Gartz (1994)
P. semilanceata .98 .02 .36 Gartz 1994
P. baeocystis .85 .59 .10 Repke et al. 1977; Beug and Bigwood 1982(b)
P. cyanescens .85 .36 .03 Stijve and Kuyper 1985; Repke et al. 1977
P. tampanensis .68 .32 n/a Gartz 1994
P. cubensis .63 .60 .025 Gartz 1994; Stijve and de Meijer 1993
P. weilii .61 .27 .05
P. hoogshagenii .60 .10 n/a Heim and Hofmann 1958
P. stuntzii .36 .12 .02 Beug and Bigwood 1982(b); Repke et al. 1977
P. cyanofibrillosa .21 .04 n/a Stamets et al. 1980
P. liniformans .16 n/d .005 Stijve and Kuyper

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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Groo]
    #24269813 - 04/25/17 01:13 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)



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OfflineGroo
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Groo]
    #24269816 - 04/25/17 01:14 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

chromatography(aka TLC) or paper chromatography is science for measuring potency. Not every one has

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8853761/fpart/all/vc/1

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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Fungi2TripWit]
    #24269819 - 04/25/17 01:14 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I had always read to go longer than that for steeping the shrooms. A little lemon juice can help.


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OfflineFungi2TripWit
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Boogieman47]
    #24269832 - 04/25/17 01:24 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Boogieman47 said:
Pretty much ill take a clone take the sample eat it if i dont feel it pretty quick or is just ok i toss the sample take another one ....

But if its great more then likely you will have a tub full of great fruits ... havent you read ms is a crap shoot?? ...

Cloning is the best way to get good potent and descent flushes its more consitent





I have read and watched videos but not so much in depth.  obviously if since I tried to isolate the strongest growing areas of my ms mycelium, and that is wrong, then I have a lot more to learn.  I just supposed that if the mycelium was kicking ass on the plate,then transfer those kickass areas of isolation (or whatever the term is), take that a monoculture, then spawn it to grain,  then it would kick ass in the bin.  To be honest there is a shit ton of information on this site to process and I'm just not at the isolation level yet.  I've been messing with agar for months now because I had huge contamination issues in the beginning.  But I'm still a rookie.


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Interviewer: Mr. Zappa, why are you still smoking if you have cancer? Frank: The cancer is in my ass man!



   

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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #24269833 - 04/25/17 01:26 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
Quote:

c10h12n2o said:
since psychadelic trips are by definition subjective, its really damned hard to know what potency is like in any of our projects, unless we have them analyzed with GCMS or something... wish i could find an easy way to objectively measure actives though

since set and setting, body chemistry / physiology, and psychological state have SO much impact, and there are so many factors involved, its nearly impossible to use our subjective evaluation of trips to even guess about objective potency

of course an experienced grower/psychonaut  can make informed guesses about how things compare to other batches in similar doses/circumstances/users, but ultimately it is a guess. especially since people can have such different experiences off of similar doses of the same exact batch, simply due to how recently they tripped, stomach contents, whether their parents are divorcing, etc

so its really tough to say for sure... strangely, higher doses dont always equal stronger or better trips, so that really complicates any objective analysis of peoples subjective trip/experience. its like "good cheese" and "bad cheese": 100% subjective.

one person might have an amazing trip off of 3g, and another might experience nothing, or a terrible trip, off of the exact same fruits from the same monoculture tub. the same could happen even with pure chemicals. our subjective experiences dont really tell us much about potency, beyond an informed guess

so when people discuss potency loss from drying, or really ANYTHING relating to potncy, unless they are having them GCMS analyzed before and after, they are ultimately guessing about something objective (potency) based on nothing more than the subjective experiences of them and their friends (trips) 

i really wish there was a convenient way to objectively measure active concentrations







C10, for a few $tack$ you could pick one up off eBay and do it. LOL


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OfflineFungi2TripWit
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24269835 - 04/25/17 01:27 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
I had always read to go longer than that for steeping the shrooms. A little lemon juice can help.




when the tea didn't kick in hard, I used the tea/mushroom sludge again and let it sit for 30 minutes to make sure I got it all out.  I needed to know I got everything I could get out of it so I could narrow down the problem... the tea wasn't it.


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InvisibleTheMadHatter420
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Fungi2TripWit]
    #24269840 - 04/25/17 01:31 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

I'm still going with the short term "immediate" tolerance that kicks in after a trip.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24269841 - 04/25/17 01:31 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Groo said:
chromatography(aka TLC) or paper chromatography is science for measuring potency. Not every one has

https://www.shroomery.org/forums/showflat.php/Number/8853761/fpart/all/vc/1





right, that would be the GCMS i kept referencing :rolleyes:

there are all kinds of chromatography: Column chromatography, Planar chromatography, Gas chromatography,Liquid chromatography, Supercritical fluid chromatography, Ion exchange chromatography, Size-exclusion chromatography, Expanded bed adsorption chromatographic separation, etc

but this is quite complicated and requires a lot of chem knowledge, not something thats easy for an amateur to do. we can send off and have it done, but it is very expensive.

i have actually contacted several labs for this purpose, but have not been able to find a lab that would test dried fruits for me (much less fresh)

when you read about stamets or gartz or whoever testing some mushroom 30 years ago, they almost always are doing it in a lab they have access to, usually their own or a university they work with. also, those particular figures you referenced are notoriously bad...

given a basic knowledge of how potency seems to vary between MS grows/fruit, why would we expect all of a particular species (especially indoor cultivated) would be identical or even near the exact active content/ratios of particular wild fruits stamets tested decades ago?  far too few fruits sampled in those studies to determine an accurate range, much less a typical amount for various species

if you find a lab that will test actives with any kind of chromatography that can accurately measure psilocybin, hit me up PLEASE. ive tried dozens, unsuccessfully

@OP, leave isolates to the professional mycologists and researchers, they can often take hundreds of transfers to obtain anyway: way beyond what you want or need. stick to clone cultures. all you want is a highly organized, aggressive culture. whether it is MS or clone doesnt really matter too much, as long as its organized

that said, use a clone if you have the option, it makes things more even for sure. clone is really a misleading word, because clones almost always have MANY strains present in them as well, so they are really MS as well, just more limited, and limited to genetics which have successfully fruited before (whereas spores are a genetic reset)

Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:

C10, for a few $tack$ you could pick one up off eBay and do it. LOL




lol if it was that simple id have done did it, believe that :lol:

people ask me weekly to help them set up "a supercritical fluid extraction machine" or "a short path distillation apparatus" lol... someone told them how to make good oil :lol: they got it all figured out, all they need is me to build em a damn machine :lol: not hardly... i always tell them to hire a chemical engineer as a consultant to show them how to use it... people underestimate how difficult this stuff is to do.... these cannabis chemists think everything is as simple as BHO :lol:


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C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

Edited by c10h12n2o (04/25/17 01:43 AM)

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InvisibleBoogieman47
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Fungi2TripWit] * 1
    #24269842 - 04/25/17 01:32 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Nothin wrong with ms besides you dont have the consistency you can still pull off killer grows ....

A monoculture is one single strain it takes tons of transfers and even with a true blue isolate you can still have shitty genetics ...

I dont try for isolates just good clean myc, but youre right you want the fastest healthiest looking areas...

What youre misunderstanding or did was when i said it could be from ms i meant it just what it is .... two fruits are pretty much never alike on an ms grow when you see the black spec of a spore its millions of spores a single spore is microscopic


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OfflineFungi2TripWit
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: TheMadHatter420]
    #24269846 - 04/25/17 01:35 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

TheMadHatter420 said:
Take a look at this thread if you want. YES it is off the shroomery but it compiles data from users and has it graphed. Many people agree about the short term tolerance. That's why psychedelics are fairly self regulating as far as addiction.

http://www.bluelight.org/vb/threads/479297-The-Big-amp-Dandy-LSD-amp-Shroom-Tolerance-FAQ-and-Discussion-Thread





Love it!!  Wonder how many people contributed to this data though.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Fungi2TripWit]
    #24269851 - 04/25/17 01:42 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

just remember that chart just a poll, based on peoples subjective evaluations of their subjective experiences... its not objective in any sense... also, i only count 5 points on the chart thats not enough for even a good poll

i think the general idea of short term tolerance is a valid one, and has been demonstrated in actual scientific studies if im not mistaken, but that bluelight chart is very unscientific

anytime people are evaluating themselves its bad science (when it can even be called science at all). if you dont believe it, ask people if they think they are smart, or good drivers lol.... the majority of people drive like shit and everyone agrees, but everyone thinks they drive great lol...

total lack of self awareness in our culture these days (USA)


--------------------

C10's Agar Guide + Tips and Tricks | c10's Flow Hood Build Guide


"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
― Friedrich Nietzsche

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OfflineFungi2TripWit
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Re: possible potency loss issue, or tolerance? [Re: Boogieman47]
    #24269853 - 04/25/17 01:43 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Boogieman47 said:
Nothin wrong with ms besides you dont have the consistency you can still pull off killer grows ....

A monoculture is one single strain it takes tons of transfers and even with a true blue isolate you can still have shitty genetics ...

I dont try for isolates just good clean myc, but youre right you want the fastest healthiest looking areas...

What youre misunderstanding or did was when i said it could be from ms i meant it just what it is .... two fruits are pretty much never alike on an ms grow when you see the black spec of a spore its millions of spores a single spore is microscopic





yeah, but honestly, what are the chances I consumed 20 of the most potent samples in my first dose, then say 15 of the shittiest in my second dose.  I'd think they are about the same as winning the powerball.  I'm sure there is a potency difference between samples in a ms grow, but really, could the margin of difference be 50% between the strongest and weakest sample?  I dunno, that's kind of hard to believe.


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