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OfflineHamHead
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Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement
    #24266232 - 04/23/17 12:44 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Question: Is CO2 heavier or lighter? Is it falling out the bottom holes or is it rising out through the top?

I had some extra spawn and some coir in a bucket that I mixed and left in the bucket with no holes. After colonization, fruits developed but were suffocated and never developed properly. Since the bucket had no holes, I believe the CO2 buildup in the bottom of the bucket had no where to go and suffocated the fruits.

Question: Would it be wise, for those of us who utilize liners, to drill some extra holes below the substrate level?

As of right now, all my mono tubs and many of the ones I see being used, the bottom holes are above the substrate by about half to one inch. There's 4 inches below the holes for CO2 to accumulate and sit.

Question: Does this accumulation of CO2 in the bottom of the mono ever get exchanged or rotated or mixed or whatever? And does it matter?


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This online first version has been peer-reviewed, accepted and edited,  but not formatted and finalized with corrections from authors and proofreaders

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OfflineCrispykoot
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: HamHead]
    #24266380 - 04/23/17 01:57 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Co2 is heavier...

You don' need holes at all for fruiting.

If you open and close the lid  there is air exchange.


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Crispykoot]
    #24266491 - 04/23/17 02:48 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Co2 is like so very slightly heavier it's basically negligible. The slight disturbances in the air would mix it and a whole bunch of other particles several times heavier like dust and mold spores. Last time I checked we don't live in a vacuum, so co2 is mixed in evenly with the air, and leaving where the rest of the air is leaving. You had bad fruits because you had not enough fae. Solution is to exchange the air more.

Bod does all his tubs unmodified, and it's not like any of his shit gets killed with a build up of co2 on the bottom..


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OfflineCrispykoot
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Mad Season]
    #24266968 - 04/23/17 06:42 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

This isn't air though, this is a substrate in a container that is off gassing CO2, so it would tend to build up and be on the bottom.

I agree with the rest though.


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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Crispykoot]
    #24267009 - 04/23/17 07:09 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Meh... User thinks too much, shrooms get put off by user thinking too much, shrooms fix to be tiny ass shrooms.

Piss on holes.

Bucket, no holes.

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OfflineCrispykoot
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Josex]
    #24267203 - 04/23/17 08:38 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)



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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Crispykoot] * 1
    #24267400 - 04/23/17 10:25 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Crispykoot said:
This isn't air though, this is a substrate in a container that is off gassing CO2, so it would tend to build up and be on the bottom.

I agree with the rest though.



Would it though? Why do spores drop from caps and actually travel upwards, before landing on the substrate/caps? Spores are like massive compared to co2 which has to be measured via moles it's so small..

This isn't a vacuum. This is on the surface of earth where there's all sorts of pressures, even the substrate itself is giving off heat and thus a higher vapor pressure.

Co2 will buildup, but it'll go all over the entire chamber. That's how gases work, don't believe me? Ideal gas law says otherwise, all gases make up the overall net pressure, and they mix evenly to give the total number of moles, unless in a vacuum.


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Edited by Mad Season (04/23/17 10:37 PM)

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OfflineCrispykoot
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Mad Season]
    #24267987 - 04/24/17 07:35 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Well say what you want or read the link. It is measurable, it effects growth and CO2 buildup is something I deal with all the time with Oysters. Added gasses do not mix evenly.

Spores are heavy and mostly cover the sub not the lid of the tray.

The interesting tidbit that is in there is that supplementing O2 or creating an O2 rich environment seems to increase weight...Maybe add oxygen and lower temps for heavier yields? Maybe...


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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Crispykoot]
    #24268119 - 04/24/17 09:16 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Co2 isn't something a amateur cubensis cultivator even needs to think about

Co2 doesn't even settle out in 3600 gallon beer fermentation tanks. When you open the manway you see co2 pouring out it looks like it's sinking but that's just concentration gradient confusing people

I had a spore explosion in one of my unmodified tubs and spores were all over the lid and my air gap holes by the handles

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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Crispykoot]
    #24268120 - 04/24/17 09:16 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Your link is broken..

And I thought we were talking about a tiny ass chamber, not a large chamber where it'd take tons of time for gases to mix..

And as bod said, that link better not be concentration gradient.

@bod my old fruiting room had spores all over the walls of the room. My tubs have spores all over the walls and ceilings. When spores drop they literally go everywhere lol


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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Mad Season]
    #24268130 - 04/24/17 09:21 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Dust takes minutes to hours to settle in a still room. Even heat from lights cause it to stay in suspension.

Smoke ways far less. Take a huge bong rip tell me when you see the smoke start to fall toward the floor.

In any kind of room we use there's so much naturally occurring air currents that co2 will never settle

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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24268134 - 04/24/17 09:25 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Co2 can build up in an area where natural air currents are restricted, though.


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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: hamloaf]
    #24268156 - 04/24/17 09:43 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Well that's a context we'll never see or deal with

A column of air has to be about 5 miles high for co2 to settle out with no convection. Otherwise Brownian motion keeps them mixed

This is known as scale height for gas pressure

Big silos are dangerous because something created co2 and it has no where to go. Its not settling it's just building up.

There's basically no situation a hobby or commercial cultivator could create that would make co2 sink. Concentration gradient is blamed for co2 sinking a lot like when your physics teacher in 4th grade "pours" co2 on a candle it's really just a blob of co2 reaching out in all directions since it takes more than a half second to diffuse

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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: bodhisatta] * 1
    #24270063 - 04/25/17 06:37 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Something is creating CO2 here, it's the substrate and the myc...It is in an enclosed space...

Put a couple oyster blocks in a unmodified mono and fruit them...Tell me how the fruits look and what caused them to deform...

In a greenhouse with a CO2 burner, you monitor CO2 levels so that you don't make a toxic environment and kill yourself  and the plants...

People have been killed from SO2 buildup in mush growing rooms in BC at a mushroom farm... Gasses do build up in enclosed spaces, and it can be toxic to organisms.


Aaaand finally, the reason I can run 200 plus oysters in a room without intake or exhaust and have really nice fruits is due to circulating the air in the room...Circulating it...

In an enclosed space, with no air circulation gasses most def. build up and CO2 will be at the bottom.


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OfflineCrispykoot
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Crispykoot]
    #24270069 - 04/25/17 06:44 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)



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Offlinespacechildo
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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24270073 - 04/25/17 06:47 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
Co2 isn't something a amateur cubensis cultivator even needs to think about




:whathesaid:

use the search function, tick the TC box, this has been asked and explained a lot through the years.

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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Crispykoot]
    #24270165 - 04/25/17 08:16 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Crispykoot said:
Something is creating CO2 here, it's the substrate and the myc...It is in an enclosed space...

Put a couple oyster blocks in a unmodified mono and fruit them...Tell me how the fruits look and what caused them to deform...

In a greenhouse with a CO2 burner, you monitor CO2 levels so that you don't make a toxic environment and kill yourself  and the plants...

People have been killed from SO2 buildup in mush growing rooms in BC at a mushroom farm... Gasses do build up in enclosed spaces, and it can be toxic to organisms.


Aaaand finally, the reason I can run 200 plus oysters in a room without intake or exhaust and have really nice fruits is due to circulating the air in the room...Circulating it...

In an enclosed space, with no air circulation gasses most def. build up and CO2 will be at the bottom.



That's concentration gradient not co2 sinking
Otherwise your co2 alarm has to be mounted on the floor. Every brewery I worked in had the co2 alarm mounted by the smoke alarms up high. There's inspection on stuff like that in commercial buildings.

And that PDF is older than anyone on the shroomery

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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24270247 - 04/25/17 09:13 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

In order for CO2 to stay on the bottom, it'd have to be so still that it could even drop in the first place. This environment isn't even possible in any form of colonizing substrate, let alone a fruiting substrate.

Let's assume CO2 does congregate on the bottom for a second. A colonizing monotub on the bottom of the stack or a jar put in a dresser with a filter at least .5 microns would have almost no airflow going into them. The only thing disturbing the air is the thermal heat given off by the substrates, and a difference in pressure going back to equilibrium. It would be escaping at such miniscule amounts, and it would have more than ample time for co2 to increase.

10000 ppm is around the level when substrates would begin to suffocate. That's roughly 1% of the air. If it just sunk, and very little gas is being exchanged, you'd expect it to build up more than 1% on the surface of the substrate.. But it doesn't. Although it congregates up to 1% overall, enough to suffocate fruit bodies, it's still exchanging BOTH the air and co2. It isn't just building up the entire chamber until it's all just 1000000 ppms of co2, so that it finally reached a point of putting out the co2 that congregated from the bottom. Even in a colonizing substrate where it's almost completely sealed, the co2 mixes evenly enough for it to be exchanged out the top of a chamber, and not increase more than 1% (10000 ppms) overall.


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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: Mad Season]
    #24270251 - 04/25/17 09:15 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

there's still teachers teaching people that co2 sinks in every day circumstances. so it's pretty easy to see that the misinformation about co2 physics is pervasive across the internet. co2 sinks, but in no situation we could ever create

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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: HamHead]
    #24270264 - 04/25/17 09:24 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

HamHead said:
...in the bottom of the mono ever get exchanged or rotated or mixed or whatever? And does it matter?




Quote:

bodhisatta said:
I had a spore explosion in one of my unmodified tubs and spores were all over the lid and my air gap holes by the handles




ever notice a single, sporulating mushroom will have spores on top of the cap even when its the only shroom.
doesnt that kinda prove the air is always moving? even in unmodified tubs?

and even if co2 settled, moving air would keep it circulating thus making it a mute point right?

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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: mushboy]
    #24270273 - 04/25/17 09:29 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

yes, and remember both hot and humid air rises, the substrate creates heat and humidity creating air flow towards the top of the tubs.

also remember air isnt 100% oxygen, its a mix of a bunch of gases and consists mostly of nitrogen.
that doesnt mean the lighter hydrogen is layered at the top, making it dangerous to light a lighter at the ceiling in a grow room.

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Re: Some questions on the subject of CO2 density and extra hole placement [Re: spacechildo]
    #24270276 - 04/25/17 09:32 AM (7 years, 8 months ago)

give or take about 21% oxygen
co2 is like 400ppm at 0.04% of "air"
if you can imagine if a substrate got up to 10000 ppm of co2 or 1% it would "Seem" as if it was blanketing but it's really not.

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