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OfflineSlit Sniff
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Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now!
    #24238028 - 04/12/17 04:18 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

This last run I started consolidating my jars and Jebus Mary and Joseph has that put a HUGE kibosh on the contams. I am experiencing my first harvest of 13 bulk subs with ZERO contams. May not be as big of a deal to some of the pro's on this site, but compared to my last 3 years (on & off) consistently having more than half of my grow turn to green before my eyes.

Now, the jars were super hard to break apart, like I'd never experienced and ALL of my bulks subs are like big bricks! Normally, I would have to baby them until they started fruiting, but right out of the spawning stage, they're knotted, white fluffy blocks!

A sincere thank you to RR for writing that BIBLE of a PDF: RR's Notes. It had always slightly intimidated me, but after enough was enough with contams ruining hard work and supplies, I buckled in and read it.

AGAR, G2G, you name it, I tried multiple to dozens of times and in some way couldn't beat my smallest opponent.

I honestly Don't recall seeing a lot of consolidation instruction on this site. Either Teks or just people giving advice. Maybe I missed it.

CONSOLIDATE your jars for no less than 1 full week. 2 weeks proved to be even more hearty; brick like jars that were a bitch to break apart. This time a bike tire was actually necessary!


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InvisibleZiran
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: Slit Sniff]
    #24238034 - 04/12/17 04:20 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

I don't normally consolidate my grain spawn, but I do let my sub consolidate and Pf-tek jars.


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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: Ziran]
    #24238068 - 04/12/17 04:33 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

ive spawn months of grains before.. :shrug:

im happy for your current grow:thumbup: but going around saying ...
Quote:

This last run I started consolidating my jars




while also saying

Quote:

Now, the jars were super hard to break apart, like I'd never experienced and ALL of my bulks subs are like big bricks! Normally, I would have to baby them until they started fruiting, but right out of the spawning stage, they're knotted, white fluffy blocks!




followed by..

Quote:

CONSOLIDATE your jars for no less than 1 full week. 2 weeks proved to be even more hearty; brick like jars that were a bitch to break apart.




will give you a shit show.

your spawn should be able to break up easily without even needing a bike tire.. just a wack like a ketchup bottle.


no contams with the spawn you described making a statement like you made??? no pics either???
:callingbullshit:

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Invisiblemynakedrat
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: mushboy]
    #24238339 - 04/12/17 06:14 PM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Yes! Always. It's like a vaccination. You don't have to have one, but why risk disease?

Ya filthy animal

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OfflineSlit Sniff
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: mushboy]
    #24239169 - 04/13/17 01:05 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

mushboy said:
ive spawn months of grains before.. :shrug:




I'm not sure what this statement means. You've spawned grains that were months old? Please clarify.

im happy for your current grow:thumbup: but going around saying ...
Quote:

This last run I started consolidating my jars




while also saying

Quote:

Now, the jars were super hard to break apart, like I'd never experienced and ALL of my bulks subs are like big bricks! Normally, I would have to baby them until they started fruiting, but right out of the spawning stage, they're knotted, white fluffy blocks!




followed by..

Quote:

CONSOLIDATE your jars for no less than 1 full week. 2 weeks proved to be even more hearty; brick like jars that were a bitch to break apart.

will give you a shit show.




1st, here's the jars after 1-2 weeks:



I'm happy to say this has been by far the best results of any grow I've had over the years. Very pleased.

your spawn should be able to break up easily without even needing a bike tire.. just a wack like a ketchup bottle.


no contams with the spawn you described making a statement like you made??? no pics either???
:callingbullshit:




The more consolidated the mycelium is, the stronger and healthier it becomes. To me, this was an easily observable result from the 14 day consolidation attempt. And believe me, I didn't just think all of this up on my own. I read RR's Notes and without spending more time on this and finding the exact line of 100's of pages, he firmly says to consolidate your jars for a week.

I went on to read more from Trusted Cultivators about consolidation and they were saying at LEAST 1 week, but 2 or 3 would give the myc even more time to consume the grains inside the jar.

Another thing I noticed by letting the jars sit for 2 weeks, was that my idea of 100% colonized WBS was pathetic compared to the SOLID white wall of mycelium that formed over the span of 2 weeks. The mass of myc inside become a true solid cylinder that slides up and down the jar if turned upside down. This would not happen at the day or 2 surround the even of all the grain finally looking covered in white, while the last few grains get covered... to me, that's only halfway, lol.

Please explain to me why consolidated mycelium being hard to break up is a shit show? I encourage you to look as long and as closely as you like at 14 thick, healthy fluffy white bulk subs. I'm unable to show you how brick like they are because I'm the only one to hold my phone for pics, but I have ZERO reason to lie and try to help others who may be struggling with contamination as I have for years. I'm not the type of gives up on something I know I can get right. It was a very rewarding challenge that I feel that I finally have enough understanding to do it correctly. 

I wouldn't just go on here and rant about a better way to do things if they hadn't already been made clear by TC's and RR.

 


--------------------
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OfflineSlit Sniff
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: mushboy]
    #24242242 - 04/14/17 12:42 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Mushboy, can you see now that consolidation is really a helpful, essentially necessary part of cultivating? That's all I was trying to say.

Mynakedrat, thanks for backing me up on this. I'll never go without consolidating my jars ever again and hopefully I can enjoy a time of peace with the mean green.

The 1st time I attempted letting half the jars sit for an extra week and the other half for 2 weeks (ALWAYS experimenting for best results) resulted in NO contams whatsoever out of 14 bulk substrates. Not only have I never had such a yield with no contams, I usually deal with over 50% contaminating before the 1st flush even.

I really don't know where you get your information about hard-to-break up mycelium being a bad thing or how your myc should be really easy to break up. Where did you read that and why are you so gung-ho to make me out to be a lying bastard when it was fairly apparent I simply wanted to spread this amazing news for those who may not know.

I would think someone with 5k+ posts would know more than me about all aspects of cultivating, but maybe do more reading and less preaching.


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OfflineAtomHeart
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: Slit Sniff]
    #24242318 - 04/14/17 01:31 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

The only real downside is that it becomes harder and harder to get the stuff out of the jars.  If you have a sterile environment or even a flow hood, it is preferable to lay the spawn/sub out in trays and then consolidate after that colonizes/recovers.  Just cover the trays after filling in front of the hood, until they are fully consolidated...Usually a week or so...Then uncover, case, and introduce fruiting conditions.


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Invisiblec10h12n2o
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: AtomHeart]
    #24242559 - 04/14/17 04:59 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

mushboy is absolutely right... dont take offense, he is trying to explain to you why what you said could/will cause problems for readers,  and encourage you to think critically so that you see why. and he is spot on

OP, what you have is a case of causation vs correlation : you had good results EVEN THOUGH you "consolidated", rather than BECAUSE you "consolidated"

im kinda surprised bodhi hasnt already come in and said something like:

"grain spawn absolutely doesnt need consolidating, wont hurt, just a waste of time and a misunderstanding of why you might 'consolidate' a substrate. consolidate your bulk sub if you want, but most people dont and there isnt a good reason to. most of the "consolidate" stuff is old info from the days of pf tek"

not to put words in his mouth or make an ass of myself or anything haha...

if you want to think in terms of theory:

look at all the biggest best bulk grows, and virtually none "consolidated" their spawn or sub, and virtually all used fresh (un"consolidated") spawn and sub, which often colonized and fruited quite fast

so this proves that "consolidation" is absolutely NOT an "essentially necessary part of cultivating", quite the opposite. "consolidation" is not necessary, and we have very little reason to believe it would even be helpful, since it is more likely to be coincidentally part of a newbies grow than coincidentally absent from any of the great grows

point is, you need to learn the basics and avoid telling yourself (or others) broad, declarative statements like "X is helpful" or "Y is necessary", otherwise you will forever struggle to unlearn these assumptions

its good to think, great to ask questions, but bad to declare. even the most knowledgable members on here tend to avoid declaring anything too definitively, usually because they have seen understanding change and advance over the years, and they understand how these ideas relate to each other and how complex things can be with so many factors involved


--------------------

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Edited by c10h12n2o (04/14/17 05:01 AM)

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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: c10h12n2o]
    #24242744 - 04/14/17 07:23 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)



When you are spawning to bulk there is no need to let the spawn consolidate. I think its best to use spawn immediately, while the mycelium is vigorous and still rapidly expanding. This is the reason we don't let spawn consolidate , its not just about it being hard to break up.

I don't see why it would solve any contamination issues, if the spawn is contaminated, its still going to be contaminated whether you let it sit around a while or not.

That being said though, I do think its a good idea to let spawn sit around and extra day or two after it looks fully colonized, just to make sure there aren't *any* uncolonized grains, because those will invite contamination. Maybe that is why you are seeing a difference in contamination rates, you were using your spawn just  little too soon?

It also can be a good idea to give span a shake and watch how it recovers, this can help weed out some had jars.

Above is a photo of what looks like a fully colonized jar but has a couple uncolonized grains- I'm gunna give it a couple extra days or a shake.


--------------------

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Offlinemushpunx
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: mushpunx]
    #24242766 - 04/14/17 07:30 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

You don't need to wait the week for consolidation because you're spawning to bulk and not fruiting.  You want to spawn while the mycelium is still rapidly growing, so any jars that are fully colonized for more than a week while you wait for the others to catch up can go into the refrigerator.
RR


"Its not just for pf tek.  You should allow at least a week of consolidation for all fruiting substrates after full colonization.  It's not necessary with spawn.
RR"

"RogerRabbit said:
Straight grains won't fruit well, if at all.  They either need to be spawned to bulk or cased."

"If you're spawning or casing, you don't need to let it consolidate beyond full colonization.
RR"


I don't really like just quoting RR because it is often pretty out of context, but you mention him.


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Offlinepunkinyou
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: mushpunx]
    #24242830 - 04/14/17 08:01 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

:takingnotes:

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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: punkinyou]
    #24242932 - 04/14/17 08:40 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

These TCs saying to consolidate spawn... Were they by chance quotes you read from 5+ years ago?

Consolidating spawn is useless, and if anything more detrimental. Spawn them the moment they hit full colonization while they're still vigorous.

I don't really get the logic either.. If your grains are contaminated, consolidation won't magically get rid of the contam. Chances are, OP just got lucky with this, and had a major post hoc fallacy.

Also, lastly, mushboy was right, grains should be easy to break up. The fact they were hard to break up leads me to believe they had bacteria in them. If OP is having bacterial issues, really isn't a surprise he has issues with getting a 100% clean grow.


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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: Mad Season]
    #24243048 - 04/14/17 09:33 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

You are correct about over incubated spawn being counter-productive, and why.  Spawn that is hard to break up isn't a symptom of contaminants, though, sir. 

Spawn that's hard to break up is a direct symptom of over incubation.  Over incubation is a vector for contamination due to the spawn becoming so tight that the spawn gets anaerobic, and is another reason over incubated spawn is counter productive.


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InvisibleMad Season
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: hamloaf]
    #24243082 - 04/14/17 09:53 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

Yeah that is another reason indeed. I was talking about the fact OP is having issues getting a clean grow though, so it's quite likely he has bacteria in his jars and he just doesn't know it. Refining your techniques and getting clean inoculant should be the solution, not consolidating spawn.


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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: Mad Season]
    #24243094 - 04/14/17 09:59 AM (7 years, 9 months ago)

You should be able to shake your fully colonized spawn up with just your hands. No banging on anything. If you can do that it's probably clean


Do not consolidate anything you're going to use as spawn. Even if you're using cakes as spawn then you would skip consolidation

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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: bodhisatta]
    #24243493 - 04/14/17 12:43 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

bodhisatta said:
You should be able to shake your fully colonized spawn up with just your hands. No banging on anything. If you can do that it's probably clean


Do not consolidate anything you're going to use as spawn. Even if you're using cakes as spawn then you would skip consolidation




Yea man I just shook up some gallon jars, little smack on the side with my palm and a light shake and it all separates , - that's beautiful
With spawn bags I look for just a light squeeze to be enough to break it up

You can tell just from looking at the jar if its gunna do that or not.


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Edited by mushpunx (04/14/17 12:44 PM)

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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: mushpunx]
    #24243521 - 04/14/17 12:56 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

The fruiting trays/tubs will take the extra week anyway, whether you like it or not, and will fruit once it has fully infiltrated all of the nutritious matter.  No need to call it "consolidation" if it happens after the spawn and/or substrate has been laid out in trays.  Then it's just the time between full colonization, and fruiting.


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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: AtomHeart]
    #24243609 - 04/14/17 01:38 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

excellent points guys

this is what i meant by "missing the point of creating spawn":

Quote:

when expanding cultures (both spawn and bulk), we are putting an amount of colonized material in a sterile or pasteurized substrate

in principle, even if there are some surviving endospores/etc, the MUCH LARGER amount of mycelium inoculant will give it a huge advantage over any surviving contams

this advantage is a function of time though, so "consolidating" your spawn actually negates much of that advantage as the myc "consolidates" and any surviving contams have more time to become more established in your spawn (which also becomes more acidic)

so "consolidating" your spawn kinda misses the point of using spawn to quickly expand your culture and outrun contams (if/when they are there)




Quote:

AtomHeart said:
The fruiting trays/tubs will take the extra week anyway, whether you like it or not, and will fruit once it has fully infiltrated all of the nutritious matter.  No need to call it "consolidation" if it happens after the spawn and/or substrate has been laid out in trays.  Then it's just the time between full colonization, and fruiting.




you are correct, but thats not exactly what they are talking about. that is precisely why i am using the term in quotes, because our cultures absolutely consolidate whether you want them to or not (of course). when i say "consolidate", im talking about the practice of giving spawn or substrate ADDITIONAL time to "consolidate" before spawning or fruiting, usually based on outdated info, and usually in an attempt to avoid contams or improve yeilds. thats what we are debating the merits of


--------------------

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"Partial knowledge is more triumphant than complete knowledge; it takes things to be simpler than they are, and so makes its theory more popular and convincing."

"Convictions are more dangerous enemies of truth than lies"
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OfflinehamloafM
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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: AtomHeart]
    #24243725 - 04/14/17 02:43 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

AtomHeart said:
The fruiting trays/tubs will take the extra week anyway, whether you like it or not, and will fruit once it has fully infiltrated all of the nutritious matter.  No need to call it "consolidation" if it happens after the spawn and/or substrate has been laid out in trays.  Then it's just the time between full colonization, and fruiting.



You are correct.  Once trays, or tubs have been spawned to the bulk substrate that there's a period/stage between full colonization, and fruiting that happens "whether we like it, or not".

However, the period between full colonization, and fruiting is correctly referred to as a consolidation period/stage, because that is the period/stage when a consolidation of nutrients, and a stronger footholding of the substrate materials occurs.


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Re: Does most everyone consolidate their jars for at least a week? I Do Now! [Re: Slit Sniff]
    #24243734 - 04/14/17 02:45 PM (7 years, 8 months ago)

Quote:

Slit Sniff said:
Mushboy, can you see now that consolidation is really a helpful, essentially necessary part of cultivating? That's all I was trying to say.



:no:


Quote:

I really don't know where you get your information about hard-to-break up mycelium being a bad thing



uh its written everywhere and its accepted as a good indicator of unhealthy spawn..

Quote:

I would think someone with 5k+ posts would know more than me about all aspects of cultivating, but maybe do more reading and less preaching.




:uhno:
thanks.

Quote:

I'm not sure what this statement means. You've spawned grains that were months old? Please clarify.




i have spawned grains that were colonized a solid month to two months(being lazy)before being used. honestly, the spawn was
dry and sucked up the water from the substrate so i had to compensate for that, but the grow was rather standard.
basically you had a good grow, which is awesome! honestly, BUT you are correlating something that has no barring on what would commonly be referred to as a 'good grow'

think of every part of cultivating like cooking. who wants to cook with 'old' ingredients? take that to mcdonalds.

Edited by mushboy (04/14/17 03:08 PM)

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