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Offlinechemist777
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Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method.
    #24226499 - 04/07/17 09:23 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)
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Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method from the position of PQS.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1704.0068v1.pdf

Abstract: The MO method and the VB method are analyzed using the principle of quantum superposition (PQS) and the method of describing a quantum system consisting of several parts. It is shown that the main assumption of the molecular orbitals method (namely, that the molecular orbital can be represented like a linear combination of overlapping atomic orbitals) enters into an insurmountable contradiction with the principle of quantum superposition. It is also shown that the description of a quantum system consisting of several parts (adopted in quantum mechanics) actually prohibits ascribe in VB method to members of equation corresponding canonical structures.

CONCLUSION. Using the quantum superposition principle, the MO method and the VB method were analyzed and it is shown that they are in contradiction with quantum mechanics. Also, using the quantum-mechanical description of a system consisting of several parts, it is shown that the attribution of canonical structures to the members of the equation is incorrect. Therefore, both the MO method and the VB method did not describe molecules with chemical bonds but actually, a lot of atoms (of which the described molecules consisted). That is, in the quantum chemical calculations, the chemical bond was "lost". Therefore, in order to "introduce" a chemical bond into calculations and avoid conflict with quantum mechanics, it is suggested to postulate the existence of MO as a new fundamental quality that describes a specific chemical bond and is not derived from simpler structural elements.








Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method from the position of PQS.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1704.0068v1.pdf




1. Structure of the benzene molecule on the basis of the three-electron bond.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1606.0152v1.pdf

2. Experimental confirmation of the existence of the three-electron bond and theoretical basis ot its existence.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1606.0151v2.pdf

3. A short analysis of chemical bonds.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1606.0149v2.pdf

4. Supplement to the theoretical justification of existence of the three-electron bond.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1606.0150v2.pdf

5. Theory of three-electrone bond in the four works with brief comments.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1607.0022v2.pdf

6. REVIEW. Benzene on the basis of the three-electron bond (full version, 93 p.).
http://vixra.org/pdf/1612.0018v5.pdf

7. Quantum-mechanical aspects of the L. Pauling's resonance theory.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1702.0333v2.pdf

8. Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method from the position of PQS.
http://vixra.org/pdf/1704.0068v1.pdf




Bezverkhniy Volodymyr (viXra): http://vixra.org/author/bezverkhniy_volodymyr_dmytrovych

Bezverkhniy Volodymyr (Amazon): https://www.amazon.com/Volodymyr-Bezverkhniy/e/B01I41EHHS/ref=dp_byline_cont_ebooks_1

Bezverkhniy Volodymyr (Archive.org):
https://archive.org/details/@threeelectronbond

Bezverkhniy Volodymyr (Scribd):
https://www.scribd.com/user/289277020/Bezverkhniy-Volodymyr#

What think?

Edited by chemist777 (05/25/17 02:38 PM)

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Invisiblesudly
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24231186 - 04/09/17 08:26 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

Quote:

chemist777 said:
That is, in the quantum chemical calculations, the chemical bond was "lost". Therefore, in order to "introduce" a chemical bond into calculations and avoid conflict with quantum mechanics, it is suggested to postulate the existence of MO as a new fundamental quality that describes a specific chemical bond and is not derived from simpler structural elements.

What think?




I dunno if that's saying there's no Lebesgue measure but if so isn't it possible to be electromagnetism?


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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: sudly]
    #24231342 - 04/09/17 09:59 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

There is no room in quantum theory for new quantum numbers of this sort.  Its already been shown that new quantum numbers add no new information to the system.  They are superflous and thus discarded.

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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: DieCommie]
    #24231437 - 04/09/17 10:55 PM (6 years, 11 months ago)

But how else are you going to explain this kind of loss and introduction of chemical bonding?
Quote:

It is suggested to postulate the existence of MO as a new fundamental quality that describes a specific chemical bond and is not derived from simpler structural elements.



Plus, there's no need for new quantum numbers as I see it, since we have EEG and ECG's to measure this sort of activity

Quote:

Magnetic fields are generated by currents, in humans there are currents that pass through the nervous system and organs as electrical impulses, e.g. in the heart, the brain and sympathetic nerves, these process are collectively known as biological oscillation and they can be measured with equipment such as EEG and ECG readers or methods in microneurography.




Quote:

Microneurography is a neurophysiological method employed by scientists to visualize and record the normal traffic of nerve impulses that are conducted in peripheral nerves of waking human subjects.




Seems like this is interconnected to me. :shrug:


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Offlinechemist777
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: sudly]
    #24349189 - 05/25/17 02:46 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)
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Quantum mechanics is a joke of God :smile:

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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24351795 - 05/26/17 02:30 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

No, it's more like gambling with a particle accelerator.

That being said, the authors of that thing don't seem to have any idea what they're talking about.  They're calling certain things by names that describe totally different things and making mistakes that nobody who's sat through so much as an undergraduate course in the very basics of quantum mechanics should be able to make.

Edited by chibiabos (05/26/17 02:42 PM)

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Offlinechemist777
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chibiabos]
    #24353983 - 05/27/17 12:08 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
No, it's more like gambling with a particle accelerator.

That being said, the authors of that thing don't seem to have any idea what they're talking about.  They're calling certain things by names that describe totally different things and making mistakes that nobody who's sat through so much as an undergraduate course in the very basics of quantum mechanics should be able to make.




This is not true.
The presented works passed an expert evaluation of chemical scientific top-journals (the most top), who are engaged in fundamental research (and in quantum chemistry also). On error, reviewers always point mistakes in the work. Here, no mistakes were found, they simply considered that the work would not be of interest to most readers (many works come to them, they choose what will be interesting for readers ("...we are sadly unable to conclude that the work is likely to be of immediate interest to our broader audience...")).
If you talk about bachelor's degree, then you do not quite understand what is being said here. If you see an error, specify, or not do trolling.

Edited by chemist777 (05/27/17 12:52 PM)

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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24354096 - 05/27/17 01:07 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

You mean aside from the total lack of data and the fact that you call a hybrid state "the third quantum state" several times?

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Offlinechemist777
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chibiabos]
    #24354220 - 05/27/17 02:08 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
You mean aside from the total lack of data and the fact that you call a hybrid state "the third quantum state" several times?




Nobody called the hybrid state the third quantum state. Moreover, the quantum state (third) starting from quantum mechanics has a discrete description. And when considering a hybrid state, for example, benzene, this is not the case (there is no discrete description), a hybrid is a new quality (as a genetic hybrid), and therefore there is a conflict with quantum mechanics.

In this paper, the MO method and the VB method are analyzed from the position of the quantum superposition principle, that is, at the level of the conceptual idea. This is not applied work, so the data is not needed.

P.S. The idea of the VB method is that the real molecule is described by a selection of canonical structures. And if this is so, then according to the equation VB (linear combination) and PQS we will have a discrete description of the molecule. But chemists know for sure that this is not so. If the discrete description were correct, many characteristics of the molecule (experimentally determined and not only) would have a discrete spectrum of values. But this is not so.

This requires a "chemical" understanding of the problem. The Pauling theory of resonance (a special case of the VB method) for the description of benzene is very indicative in this case. So, we have the resonance of the horse and donkey (canonical structures, Kekule structures) and as a result of their resonance we will have a hybrid, that is, a mule (the real molecule of benzene). Note, not a discrete selection of horse and donkey, but mule (the animal has a genetic hybrid of a horse and a donkey). This comparison is known in organic chemistry for a very long time (the Welland, University of Chicago) and is used in textbooks to understand the essence of resonance.
In the MO method, in essence, the same happens, only with AO and MO orbitals.

Edited by chemist777 (05/27/17 02:29 PM)

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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24354406 - 05/27/17 03:38 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Why are you assuming that properties that are basically a result of resonance apply in general?  And how on Earth are you managing to confuse a personal opinion with a mathematical proof?

Quantum mechanics is just a class of statistical mechanics.  If it proscribed superposing waves then it wouldn't permit the definition of waves in the first place, since superposition is a property of waves (in that it's basically wave addition).  And besides that, quantum mechanics doesn't really put any requirements on the space that the wave-function is defined on.  It puts restrictions on how the states themselves can be defined, but the states (state vectors, anyway) exist a space that is totally separate from the one on which your wave-function is defined.  I don't even think that you could really make an argument that either is capable of being a homomorphism of the other.  Even trying to argue that there's some homomorphism transforming the states to the wave-functions (or vice versa) is kind of a stretch, unless you have some way to prove (and not just throw out some postulate and suppose that it's true) that superposition (which you appear to reject out of hand with no good reason) and state-vector addition can be preserved under a transformation.  I'm not saying that it's necessarily impossible but you can't just assume that it's true just because it sounds good, in your opinion.

Edited by chibiabos (05/27/17 03:39 PM)

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Offlinechemist777
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chibiabos]
    #24354500 - 05/27/17 04:22 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Why are you assuming that properties that are basically a result of resonance apply in general?  And how on Earth are you managing to confuse a personal opinion with a mathematical proof?

Quantum mechanics is just a class of statistical mechanics.  If it proscribed superposing waves then it wouldn't permit the definition of waves in the first place, since superposition is a property of waves (in that it's basically wave addition).  And besides that, quantum mechanics doesn't really put any requirements on the space that the wave-function is defined on.  It puts restrictions on how the states themselves can be defined, but the states (state vectors, anyway) exist a space that is totally separate from the one on which your wave-function is defined.  I don't even think that you could really make an argument that either is capable of being a homomorphism of the other.  Even trying to argue that there's some homomorphism transforming the states to the wave-functions (or vice versa) is kind of a stretch, unless you have some way to prove (and not just throw out some postulate and suppose that it's true) that superposition (which you appear to reject out of hand with no good reason) and state-vector addition can be preserved under a transformation.  I'm not saying that it's necessarily impossible but you can't just assume that it's true just because it sounds good, in your opinion.




Sorry, but you are mixing two different things, superposition of waves (in that it's basically wave addition) and quantum superposition, these are absolutely different things.

Besides, resonance as a physical phenomenon (theory of resonance in chemistry) does not exist, it's just a mathematical description, very visual and successful, but already for naphthalene it was necessary to draw about 40 structures, to get a more or less acceptable result (try to draw 40 resonant structures for naphthalene, it is not a simple task).

And rigorous proof on the basis of the quantum superposition principle this is not a personal opinion.

P.S. "In the early 1930s, Louis de Broglie made an attemption to find the relativistic wave equation for the photon, similar within the meaning of the equation, deduced by Paul Dirac for an electron. Propose, that the photon, with spin 1, can be represented as a bound pair of particles with spin 1/2, french scientist, starting from the Paul Dirac equation, received the corresponding wave equation of the photon. The wave function of such a vector photon was similar (identical) to Maxwellian electromagnetic wave' (Louis de Broglie, Russian Wikipedia).

Edited by chemist777 (05/27/17 05:06 PM)

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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24354578 - 05/27/17 05:03 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Rigorous?  Proof?  C'mon buddy...

And you literally said that a linear combinations of wavefunctions were in contradiction quantum superposition.  You never offered a proof either.  You never proved a thing.  All you really did was flesh out some postulate and came to the conclusion that it's true based on criteria that are arbitrary, at best.  There's nothing wrong with calling it your own hypothesis, but a proof it sure the shit ain't.

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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chibiabos]
    #24354618 - 05/27/17 05:20 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

"Proceeding from this equation ψ3 = С1ψАО А(1) + С2ψАО В(1) and according to the principle of quantum superposition, when the third quantum state is realized |ψ3> (which is described by the wave function ψ3), then when measuring a physical quantity, for example, the orbital energy, the quantum system will take the values of E1 (the energy of the atomic orbital of atom A) and E2 (the energy of the atomic orbital of atom B) with frequency respectively |С1|^2 and |С2|^2, that is, it will have a discrete description. When measuring the energy of a given orbital, we sometimes register the value of E1, and sometimes the value of E2. But this directly contradicts the idea of the MO method, since one-electron MO should be formed with an energy lower (if it is a bonding MO) than the energies of individual AO (according to the idea of linear combination of atomic orbitals, two MOs are formed from two AO, one MO with reduced energy and the other MO increased energy). But the principle of quantum superposition prohibits this. With a linear combination of one-electron atomic orbitals, we will not be able to obtain a "new quality", that is, a one- electron molecular orbital, but we will have the spectrum of AO."
p. 4-5 http://vixra.org/pdf/1704.0068v1.pdf

In the MO method from the AO, receive MO by certain operations. But the principle of quantum superposition (by its definition) clearly indicates that we will receive only AO from AO, and nothing else will happen. That's all. If we go to a comparison, whatever manipulations we make with the "meters" we do not get "kilograms", since they are different "qualities" (length and mass, as well as AO and MO). This is indicated by the quantum superposition principle.

You just need to understand what quantum superposition is.

Principle of quantum superposition (p. 1-2 http://vixra.org/pdf/1702.0333v2.pdf):
"For example, consider two quantum states (actually existing) are described by wave functions ψ1 and ψ2. From the principle of superposition [1, p. 21] it should be clearly, that their linear combination (ψ3 = C1ψ1 + C2ψ2) will be the third quantum state (as actually existing), which will be described by a wave function ψ3. What does it mean? The fact that the measurement of a certain physical value d in the state |ψ1> will result d1, and for measure a value for of d in the state |ψ2> will result d2. When the third quantum state |ψ3> is realized, then when measuring a physical quantity, the quantum system will take the values d1 and d2 with probabilities, respectively, |C1|^2 and |C2|^2. That is, in a quantum state |ψ3> when we will have many dimensions sometimes d1 value and sometimes d2 (with certain known frequency). But this is in resonance theory can not be.".

Edited by chemist777 (05/27/17 05:26 PM)

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Offlinechibiabos
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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24354686 - 05/27/17 05:52 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Like I said...

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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chibiabos]
    #24354700 - 05/27/17 06:01 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Using the quantum superposition principle for analysis in chemistry and physics can show many interesting things ...

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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24354706 - 05/27/17 06:04 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

chemist777 said:
Using the quantum superposition principle for analysis in chemistry and physics can show many interesting things ...



Definitely helps if you study a little bit of algebra and topology first, though.

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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chibiabos]
    #24354715 - 05/27/17 06:11 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Quote:

chibiabos said:
Quote:

chemist777 said:
Using the quantum superposition principle for analysis in chemistry and physics can show many interesting things ...



Definitely helps if you study a little bit of algebra and topology first, though.




Do not be rude, but first of all understand the principle of quantum superposition ...

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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24354796 - 05/27/17 06:47 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Don't solicit criticism if you don't want it.

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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chibiabos]
    #24354857 - 05/27/17 07:15 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

Do not confuse criticism with rudeness, and let's finish this discussion.

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Re: Quantum mechanics,Quantum-mechanical analysis of the MO method and VB method. [Re: chemist777]
    #24354923 - 05/27/17 07:53 PM (6 years, 9 months ago)

What are any of you proving anyway?


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